102 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

marshalleck wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience.

Actually I think you're the one that has a mistaken understanding of the concept. Whether or not it's a real phenomenon is beside the point; lets go ahead and assume it's true.

Uncanny valley applies to representations of humans--it could be digital art, animation, robots, etc. But they are all created to be facsimiles of humans, meaning the creator is striving to create the illusion that it's an actual person.

This can't apply to the geth or clearly non-human aliens, because well...no matter how they act, nobody will mistake them for a human.

The uncanny valley is when a representation of a human falls just short of creating the illusion of a living, breathing person. There's just something not right about the person, but the viewer can't quite tell what it is. Maybe it doesn't blink appropriately, or there's an inhuman, vacant quality to its eyes or facial expressions.

Excellent point...so why did James Cameron spend so much time and effort on Avatar trying to overcome the Uncanny Valley, despite the fact that we know the Na'vi aren't human? Not that I'm trying to mock you, you make a valid statement,  but this is a point someone brought up earlier.  Since we all know that the Na'vi are clearly NOT human, why spend so much money on technology to overcome the Valley at all?

[WoodWizzard87]

"The Uncanny Valley" really comes into play moreso with moving elements or watching the CGI move on the big screen. Your eyes and brain can pick out whats wrong with facial features or how differently the body moves based on past memories. When something is different or upsetting, your brain interprets it and you can tell the difference and decide if its human looking enough or not. Its all in the individuals perception as well and the public as a whole.

[DuffyMJ]

you humans are all racist!

[marshalleck]

RiouHotaru wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience.

Actually I think you're the one that has a mistaken understanding of the concept. Whether or not it's a real phenomenon is beside the point; lets go ahead and assume it's true.

Uncanny valley applies to representations of humans--it could be digital art, animation, robots, etc. But they are all created to be facsimiles of humans, meaning the creator is striving to create the illusion that it's an actual person.

This can't apply to the geth or clearly non-human aliens, because well...no matter how they act, nobody will mistake them for a human.

The uncanny valley is when a representation of a human falls just short of creating the illusion of a living, breathing person. There's just something not right about the person, but the viewer can't quite tell what it is. Maybe it doesn't blink appropriately, or there's an inhuman, vacant quality to its eyes or facial expressions.

Excellent point...so why did James Cameron spend so much time and effort on Avatar trying to overcome the Uncanny Valley, despite the fact that we know the Na'vi aren't human? Not that I'm trying to mock you, you make a valid statement,  but this is a point someone brought up earlier.  Since we all know that the Na'vi are clearly NOT human, why spend so much money on technology to overcome the Valley at all?

I would say that's an inappropriate application of the term. James Cameron wasn't so much trying to overcome the impression that the Na'vi aren't human as he was trying to create the impression that they aren't computer models. It's a subtle but important distinction.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Unless I'm mistaken, the uncanny valley is generally applied to creations (androids for example) that appear so close to human that it supposedly becomes disconcerting because you really notice the minute details that aren't quite right, etc. Well, I didn't really get that feeling, although it was clear that the team members were special, including Miranda. I found Thane attractive enough myself. *cough* I wouldn't say that the level of detail/realism really put me off any of the characters however. Still, this is light-years more interesting than most of the others at least.



The poster who mentioned The Polar Express and the Final Fantasy movie listed two good examples I think. I watched both movies (even consider The Polar Express something of a Christmas favorite now), and I have to say that in both films there was something...off about the human characters. I suspect it may have something to do with the eyes/expressions. They were both realistic...just not quite there in every way.

[HAGA NAGA]

is this why i thought Cameron was so amzingly attractive on the Sarah Connor Chronicles? my god, i watched that show thinking "kiss her!, kiss her!, kiss her!" the entire time i watch John converse with her. hmmm. they must have done their "uncanny valley" homework on that show.

[RiouHotaru]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Nice post, if I remember right the uncanny valley was cited as one of the reasons that Final Fantasy movie did so poorly in the box office a few years ago. I agree the creepiest character in the game is one of the humans. For me it's Jacob though, he's worse than the collectors.

If you think this is bad, watch Ashley's scene on Horizon.  In a few of her frames her eyes do some strange stuff and it goes past repulsive into stomach-ache inducing hilarity.  She looks like someone with mental retardation.  And the fact she continues her dialogue with this look on her face, if only for a few frames, ruins the entire scene.

[KainrycKarr]

flem1 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

flem1 wrote...

Erm, there was a thread in the old Bio boards. Lemme see if I can find it.

You may have mixed up the Uncanny Valley with something else.  The idea behind the Uncanny Valley is that the closer a non-human (robot for instance) starts to resemble a human, anything that would look out of the ordinary becomes glaring obvious, and horribly unnerving for the audience

No, that's what I mean -- except you're wrong.  To be a "valley', there would also have to be a point where more photorealistic = no longer unnerving.

This is a pop psych myth popularized by Roger Ebert.  There's a bit of a lit review in this archived thread -- to summarize, the studies show either that there's a wholly direct correlation between realism and non-eerieness or a slight rise in eerieness with full realism. There is no valley, period.

If there are so many good studies showing this exists, please link one.

1. It's a theory. Part of psychology. Most of psychology isn't physically provable, to my knowledge.

2. There's evidence that both proves and disproves it's "existence" in your link...

On a side not, what is with you and the uncanny valley? You seem strangely hostile to the idea itself.

[RiouHotaru]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Unless I'm mistaken, the uncanny valley is generally applied to creations (androids for example) that appear so close to human that it supposedly becomes disconcerting because you really notice the minute details that aren't quite right, etc. Well, I didn't really get that feeling, although it was clear that the team members were special, including Miranda. I found Thane attractive enough myself. *cough* I wouldn't say that the level of detail/realism really put me off any of the characters however. Still, this is light-years more interesting than most of the others at least.

The poster who mentioned The Polar Express and the Final Fantasy movie listed two good examples I think. I watched both movies (even consider The Polar Express something of a Christmas favorite now), and I have to say that in both films there was something...off about the human characters. I suspect it may have something to do with the eyes/expressions. They were both realistic...just not quite there in every way.

Hmm...true.  I guess the fact they tried to model Miranda after her VA is what made me think of her as approaching the Valley.  I mean, the Bioware team had an entire division devoted to just the eyes of the NPCs (this was said on the CE bonus DVD) so as to avoid causing people to freak out if something looked wrong.

[Llandaryn]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Warning: The following post will likely be extremely lengthy and wordy, as it discusses a rather complex (IMO) subject, so if you're going to comment, please take the time to actually READ it.  Thank you.

A very interesting read, thanks for sharing.

It may be more simple than that, though. The majority of men are designed to be attracted to good-looking women. Men are, in general, aethetic creatures, which is why developers try so hard to please men with flashy graphics, sleek sports cars, glossy magazine models, etc. To a man, physical beauty in a woman triggers something on the subconscious level that tells him that this would be a good woman to pass his genes along to for making kids.

Women, whilst also liking 'beautiful' things, might choose a less attractive mate in favour of one who possesses qualities which would keep their offspring safe -- strength, dedication, etc. And there's no doubt about it, Garrus is one of the strongest and most dedicated of your crew. He's there for you, not Cerberus.

This is all the pre-programmed biological stuff. Environment and education plays a part in our feelings too. Somebody who is told "only aim for what is beautiful and looks like you" as a kid, will mainly go for beautiful women. People who are told "beauty is only skin deep" a lot as a kid might not be as judgemental upon visual impressions. Some people, like you and the rest of the folks who have no problem romancing Garrus, are able to overcome the "it doesn't look like me" barrier, whilst others are not as see only something that is too different to make sense.

JAT.

[KainrycKarr]

poisonoustea wrote...

Just one thing before throwing my 0.02 in.

What is not being considered in this discussion is that they're fictional characters. The mindset applied to fictional characters is very, very different than that being used in real life.

I agree on the uncanny valley. I found Liara or Ashley less physically attractive than, say, Tali, not because I'm a Tali fanatic or I actually think she's hotter. I would probably freak the hell out if a Quarian made a pass at me in real life. But in the game, the human characters' resemblance to actual humans triggered the uncanny valley effect in me, so it's not that unnatural to feel driven towards non-human species in the context of ME.

I don't know if it was in fact the human resemblance that did it, but I definately did find Tali more attractive than Liara and Ashley. And no, it had nothing to do with "dem hips" or "dat ass".

I found the idea of it far more appealing, to be specific. I won't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to try and explain if and how that fits into the uncanny valley theory.

[Fishy]

I will put it simply.

Miranda she remind me to much of Golddigger and she's to ambitious for my taste.

I just can't bring myself to romance her.It's either Jack or Tali.



It's would be like romancing Angelina Jolie Jolie and i simply put .. does not feel right.

While Tali she feel more natural and average.



While Chambers ... Hmm . She's just too horny..

[Eclesis]

Personally I found the character models and textures to be reasonably believable, humans and aliens both, and didn't really get that effect. However, each individual has their own standards of attractiveness within the human norm, and there's not a really good universal measuring stick for that despite certain features commonly seen as more desirable than others (symmetry, for example). I can honestly say that I have yet to find a male human character in either game to be attractive, and I think the disassociation from human norms adds to the appeal of the alien characters because I am not subconsciously trying to compare them to my preferences in humans and coming up disappointed. "Conventional attractiveness" is this tiny dot on the horizon when you're dealing with lizard or bird people or whatever, and instead focus on other signals like personality, voice, and motion.

[Default137]

As someone who has been near various types of robots before, or things that could at least resemble robots, yes, the Uncanny Valley does exist, and the closer they get to human, the more awkward it feels to be around them, to talk to them, or to interact with them.

Although, in real life, its a bit different, when I find myself in the lab with lets say a humanoid robot that is very far on the left side, I view it as I would a small dog, or a puppy, and many of my co-students? ( Its 2 AM, and I have been studying World History for 6 hours not, what are the other people I go to class with called again? ;_: ) voice the same feelings, so its interesting to see that when its applied to living creatures, or what we view as living creatures at least, it can cause feelings of attraction.

Kinda 2 AM ramble there, but I think I got the point across.

Modifié par Default137, 16 février 2010 - 07:36 .

[Barker673]

I'm not so sure if the uncanny valley necessarily applies to the ME2 that much, because the alien LI's are distinctly NOT human...But anyway, I think that Garrus/Thane both looked cool and not necessarily attractive (I am a straight male after all) but their personalities were great to experience for the romance with FemShep.



Tali was a great character as well, but we didn't even see her face, so I'm not sure. I guess you could see her figure and just imagine her without her mask on, so there is that physical attraction but I think it's still more personality than anything for the alien LI's.

[RiouHotaru]

Barker673 wrote...

I'm not so sure if the uncanny valley necessarily applies to the ME2 that much, because the alien LI's are distinctly NOT human...But anyway, I think that Garrus/Thane both looked cool and not necessarily attractive (I am a straight male after all) but their personalities were great to experience for the romance with FemShep.

Tali was a great character as well, but we didn't even see her face, so I'm not sure. I guess you could see her figure and just imagine her without her mask on, so there is that physical attraction but I think it's still more personality than anything for the alien LI's.

True.  But then consider Miranda and Jacob.  Or heck, even Kaidan/Ashley if you remained faithful.

[RiouHotaru]

Hmmm...seeing the replies. I believe I may has misrespresented my own argument. Damn, hindsight is always perfect. Alright then, allow me to see if I can correct myself:



I find Tali/Garrus to be more attractive than the humans, because they tend to stick to the far left hand side of the Valley, being distinctly non-human. Characters like Miranda/Jacob/Ashley/Kaidan on the other hand, push a bit closer to the Valley, which provokes either unease or amusement (in the ME1 pair's case) due to their graphical representation. Does this sound any better than my overly analytical statement earlier? ^^;

[Alexandus]

In Legion's terms, you're defective.

[flem1]

KainrycKarr wrote...

2. There's evidence that both proves and disproves it's "existence" in your link...

No there isn't.  Again, read the linked studies.  All show no "valley" effect, while none show the reverse.

I just have a hostility to popularized nonsense being taken at face value.  It's worse, as here, when people try to name-drop it to sound smart.  It's quite the opposite.

[KainrycKarr]

Alexandus wrote...

In Legion's terms, you're defective.

Negative.

[DuffyMJ]

Has anyone watched that show farscape? In that show you basically have an ashley williams chick and an asari-like blue chick. i found the human chick more attractive in both media.... But would def. take Tali over either of them.

[Barker673]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I find Tali/Garrus to be more attractive than the humans, because they tend to stick to the far left hand side of the Valley, being distinctly non-human. Characters like Miranda/Jacob/Ashley/Kaidan on the other hand, push a bit closer to the Valley, which provokes either unease or amusement (in the ME1 pair's case) due to their graphical representation. Does this sound any better than my overly analytical statement earlier? ^^;

That definitely makes a lot more sense, and is more in line with what I said earlier. Considering this topic is something I have only brushed upon earlier, it's interesting to learn these things and what other people think. 

Jacob freaked me out a little, that was pretty damn realistic but it didn't look actually real - it looked like a 3D photo slapped on someone's head that could lip sync. It made me queasy talking to him sometimes. I guess that is where this Uncanny Valley business stuff fits in.