102 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

flem1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

2. There's evidence that both proves and disproves it's "existence" in your link...

No there isn't.  Again, read the linked studies.  All show no "valley" effect, while none show the reverse.

I just have a hostility to popularized nonsense being taken at face value.  It's worse, as here, when people try to name-drop it to sound smart.  It's quite the opposite.

Um, I read it...and yes. There is.

But i'm not going to argue with you over it. noone's trying to sound smart here, than you. that you would say is pretty much just poor taste and sounds borderline flame-baiting to me.

The rest of us are trying to have a discussion, which is actually pretty darn interesting.

I don't know what your hostility comes from with this particular subject, but your bias is...obvious. Even the people who agreed with you in your linked thread were less hostile.

[KainrycKarr]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Has anyone watched that show farscape? In that show you basically have an ashley williams chick and an asari-like blue chick. i found the human chick more attractive in both media.... But would def. take Tali over either of them.

I know exactly who you're talking about. And yes. That chick was very...uh. Canny.

But that was live-action, so I don't think the OP applies to it, if i understand the UV theory correctly

[RiouHotaru]

justinnstuff wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Hmmm...seeing the replies. I believe I may has misrespresented my own argument. Damn, hindsight is always perfect. Alright then, allow me to see if I can correct myself:

I find Tali/Garrus to be more attractive than the humans, because they tend to stick to the far left hand side of the Valley, being distinctly non-human. Characters like Miranda/Jacob/Ashley/Kaidan on the other hand, push a bit closer to the Valley, which provokes either unease or amusement (in the ME1 pair's case) due to their graphical representation. Does this sound any better than my overly analytical statement earlier? ^^;

I wasn't sure what you were getting at the first time, but this makes way more sense. I see what you're saying now.

Ha!  I apologize then.  When I get into an analytical mood I tend to pour over every little detail, which can lead to me getting wordy and what not.  I'm sorry if I confused you.  Also, despite this, I find it quite satisfying that a video game can provoke such thoughtful discussion and discourse.  Makes me feel glad to be a gamer.

[Tooneyman]

In the end I think I found the crazy human characters to be more attractive. I would say jack became very attractive on the second play through. Mostly because its a balance between the two Romance options with her it was either the rough love or the soft bed love. Unfortunately my renegade stayed loyal to his love, because I wanted that actual romance experiences bioware promised us from the first game, thats why I created another character to do all human love interests hehe.

[RiouHotaru]

poisonoustea wrote...

RiouHotaru, you should definitely edit the OP.

Done, the Triple Edit at the bottom contains the condensed version of my argument for those who find the upper parts difficult to understand.

[marshalleck]

flem1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

2. There's evidence that both proves and disproves it's "existence" in your link...

No there isn't.  Again, read the linked studies.  All show no "valley" effect, while none show the reverse.

I just have a hostility to popularized nonsense being taken at face value.  It's worse, as here, when people try to name-drop it to sound smart.  It's quite the opposite.

That's not exactly the conclusion either paper reaches, because neither was investigating the existence of a "valley."

The first paper from 2005 was specifically investigating whether a negative response is the result of a reminder of death and mortality. The second paper was questioning whether the most eery appearances are those that are most human.

Your conclusion that a "valley" doesn't exist can't derive from these papers since that's not at all what the researchers set out to test and neither paper supports your claim.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[KainrycKarr]

marshalleck wrote...

flem1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

2. There's evidence that both proves and disproves it's "existence" in your link...

No there isn't.  Again, read the linked studies.  All show no "valley" effect, while none show the reverse.

I just have a hostility to popularized nonsense being taken at face value.  It's worse, as here, when people try to name-drop it to sound smart.  It's quite the opposite.

That's not exactly the conclusion either paper reaches, because neither was investigating the existence of a "valley."

The first paper from 2005 was specifically investigating whether a negative response is the result of a reminder of death and mortality. The second paper was questioning whether the most eery appearances are those that are most human.

Your conclusion that a "valley" doesn't exist can't derive from these papers since that's not at all what the researchers set out to test and neither paper supports your claim.

Welcome to why i stopped arguing. flem1 seems to have some kind of deep-rooted hostility for this particular subject., that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the valley's existence or lack thereof.

[marshalleck]

Yes, in fact, both papers seemed to basically accept the common-sense premise that people have a negative reaction to uncanniness.

Anyways, I'm not really interested in an argument either. I just wanted to point out that flem1's objections shouldn't be taken at face value either, and especially not when based on papers that are unrelated to his/her claim that "uncanny valley" doesn't exist.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[Deztyn]

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY) 

From the view of the Asari, no, no it's not a female/female thing, it's an asari/non-asari thing, from the point of view of a human, in universe or out, asari are female. Full stop. You can argue the technicalities all you like but asari look, sound, act, and to some degree even self identify (Matriarchs, Matrons, Sisters and Daughters) as female.

Which is why it irritated the hell out of me that in the first ME turning down Liara with an option that says FemShep isn't into girls results in her explaining that she's not technically female as humans understand it and another option on the dialogue wheel to romance her. Sexuality doesn't work that way. If you are not physically attracted to women you will not be physically attracted to asari.  Denying it doesn't make it any less true. If Bioware wanted to make a truely monogendered race, they could have done it without making them have perfectly melodious voices, georgeous faces and bodies most human women would die for.

[RiouHotaru]

Deztyn wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY) 

From the view of the Asari, no, no it's not a female/female thing, it's an asari/non-asari thing, from the point of view of a human, in universe or out, asari are female. Full stop. You can argue the technicalities all you like but asari look, sound, act, and to some degree even self identify (Matriarchs, Matrons, Sisters and Daughters) as female.

Using feminine terms, or looking female does not mean the gender pronoun applies.  Simply because a human believes they are female doesn't make it so.  Again, you can't make this argument that Bioware is somehow being sneaky or tricky.  If you think they are female, that's your perception, which you are welcome to.  But it doesn't change the fact that they are in not female by the standard definition.

Which is why it irritated the hell out of me that in the first ME turning down Liara with an option that says FemShep isn't into girls results in her explaining that she's not technically female as humans understand it and another option on the dialogue wheel to romance her. Sexuality doesn't work that way. If you are not physically attracted to women you will not be physically attracted to asari.  Denying it doesn't make it any less true. If Bioware wanted to make a truely monogendered race, they could have done it without making them have perfectly melodious voices, georgeous faces and bodies most human women would die for.

Again, simply appearing female doesn't necessarily make the relationship one between females.  In fact, your argument about sexuality is likely an in-canon cause for confusion.  Humans have a hard time getting over the fact they look female, and thus use female gender pronouns for the sake of conveinence, while the Asari opt not to correct them or anyone else every time they make that mistake because it'd be pointless to try.  Also, whether or not sexuality works in that manner, biologically, they aren't female.  You'd find that out as soon as you slept with one.  Thus, on the subconscious sexual level it certainly feels like a f/f romance, but in reality, it's not.

[RiouHotaru]

poisonoustea wrote...

But it doesn't change the fact that they are in not female by the standard definition.

Well, female is the opposite of male. With that in mind, I can't see how an Asari could attempt copulation with a human male.

According to Liara, "copulation" is a bit of a misnomer.  They don't have sex in the way humans do it.  They just do this weird bonding of nervous systems and look at the genes of their partner for favorable traits.  Physical intimacy is entire optional in this process.

[RiouHotaru]

poisonoustea wrote...

According to Liara, "copulation" is a bit of a misnomer. They don't have sex in the way humans do it. They just do this weird bonding of nervous systems and look at the genes of their partner for favorable traits.

Yes, that was my argument. Since they gather genetic information from their partners that way, I see no use for coitus - which, honestly, is what appears to happen in ME1's romance scene. If they have a means of copulating with a human male partner, they have female reproductive organs, which makes no sense.

Not to be nitpicky or rude, but you did say the key word.  "Appears".  For all we now, Shepard and Liara just engaged in snuggling and heavy petting...but you're right, there's no way to be certain, so the assumption is fairly obvcious...

[Deztyn]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Using feminine terms, or looking
female does not mean the gender pronoun applies.  Simply because a
human believes they are female doesn't make it so.  Again, you can't
make this argument that Bioware is somehow being sneaky or tricky.  If
you think they are female, that's your perception, which you are welcome to.  But it doesn't change the fact that they are in not female by the standard definition.

One or two lines of dialogue and a codex entry doesn't change the fact
that the Asari are the sex symbols of the galaxy by Bioware's design. They were meant to be drooled over by teenage boys. Simultaneously declaring that they aren't really female isn't so much tricky or sneaky as it is blatantly dishonest.

Again, simply appearing female doesn't necessarily make the relationship one between females.

And again, just because they aren't technically female doesn't mean they won't be perceived as such by anyone with eyes and ears. Including the characters in universe. The asari can't truly be considered lesbians but Shepard and any other woman attracted to the asari are. Or at least bisexual.

In fact, your argument about sexuality is likely an in-canon cause for confusion.  Humans have a hard time getting over the fact they look female, and thus use female gender pronouns for the sake of conveinence, while the Asari opt not to correct them or anyone else every time they make that mistake because it'd be pointless to try.

The asari use gendered terms to refer to themselves. Does Samara refer to Morinth as her 'child'? No, she says 'daughter'. She also says 'she' and 'her'. The Asari Blue Suns Mercenaries are 'sisters'. Are you really arguing that using the gender pronoun is inaccurate for us when the asari do it themselves? Or is it only the actual word 'female' you take issue with and every other gendered word in the english language is acceptable?

Also, whether or not sexuality works in that manner, biologically, they
aren't female.  You'd find that out as soon as you slept with one. 
Thus, on the subconscious sexual level it certainly feels like a f/f romance, but in reality, it's not.

Asari have breasts, one would assume for nursing rather than just facilitating fanservicy plunging necklines. Asari are capable of bearing children, which means there's an organ they grow in and an orafice they exit from. I'd call that female. Garrus and Thane's manbits probably aren't like a human
man's bits. Doesn't mean that we don't look at them as male characters.

It's irrelevent anyway. If you look at an asari you see a woman.  There's nothing subconcious about it, if you are attracted to an Asari you are attracted to a female form. From the persepective of a Femshep it's a lesbian relationship and you can't hide behind the technicalities of alien biology when discussing the sexuality of a human character.

poisonoustea wrote...

My concept of the Asari would've been quite
different, probably not marketable: thin, flat-chested, black eyes,
androgynous for human standards.

This. <3

Modifié par Deztyn, 16 février 2010 - 10:20 .

[ComTrav]

i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab239/TJRumans/Side-by-side.png

A good side-by-side comparison of Miranda and Yvonne, though personally I think still images flatter Miranda. In animation she looks much more stilted.

I think the uncanny valley is a highly individualized concept. I asked about it in the Miranda thread a few days ago and no one in the thread had a problem with it. Now, these are all people who really like Miranda, so one wonders if they liked the character so much it overcame whatever initial aversion they had to the character, or if it was simply not a problem for them. The Miranda thread has LOTS AND LOTS of screen captures; getting Miranda's face from different angles and in different expressions is something that certain Miranda fans seem to enjoy doing. I think the character's distinctive facial model is at least part of the character's appeal. (And proof you can't make a face to please everyone...enter part of Tali's appeal.)

So people who like Miranda don't find a problem with her 'uncanniness', but it's been mentioned in connection with her enough times that I feel like some people do. And although we do get Miranda haters in the Miranda thread, none of them say they hate Miranda because they found her closely human yet vaguely fake, but I'd be surprised if they did. It's hard to know for sure how using Yvonne's face impacted Miranda's overall popularity and reception, but I'm inclined to say it's a net positive. (Though I'm the guy who just so-happened to have a Miranda/Yvonne comparison pic laying around, so it's not like I'm unbiased.)

I'm also wondering how this may/may not have impacted the popularity of less-detailed humans like Ashley, Kaidin, and Jacob. Do they have a large 'uncanny' problem then Miranda, or less? And what about TiM, who, eyes aside, does closely resemble Martin Sheen?

[Talogrungi]

poisonoustea wrote...

Yes, that was my argument. Since they gather genetic information from their partners that way, I see no use for coitus - which, honestly, is what appears to happen in ME1's romance scene. If they have a means of copulating with a human male partner, they have female reproductive organs, which makes no sense.

Male nipple syndrome. Doesn't have to makes sense to be believable.

[Cutlass Jack]

poisonoustea wrote...

poisonoustea wrote...

My concept of the Asari would've been quite
different, probably not marketable: thin, flat-chested, black eyes,
androgynous for human standards.

This. <3

Ah. Like to see that someone shares my idea on it.
I even have some CA about that, like... uh, typical Asari. I'm not really good at drawing, but I think it's worth sharing.

See your drawing is very close to what I was thinking of in my earlier theory. Human-esque faces but not perfectly human like we see. Every race just sees that looking closer to an idealized female of their kind but still keeps most of the basic details.