102 réponses à ce sujet

[Doug84]

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY)  However, from the perspective of the Uncanny Valley, the Asari tend towards the right-side with Miranda.  While this bothers me to some degree (especially the uniformity of their race), they don't provoke the same reaction as Miranda.  Basically, they're too human for me.  In a fictional creative medium which is as interactive as a video game can be, I prefer that my characters tend toward less realism, because, as anyone tinkering with the character creator in ME1 or 2 can tell you.  No matter how human you go for, something will always look wrong.  Thane is especially guilty of this, due to his very human appearance, down to the creepy flashbacks exposing the look of his eyes irisises, pupils, and all.

I'm alittle surprised to read that you're against the idea that the Asari are female. Whilst I agree, I can also see why people argue that they are, in effect, female. I mean, we've never had an Asari with a male voice actor.

But also, as you stated, you are a gay gamer, and the whole Liara thing has been a strong argument in favour of introducing gay/lesbian relationship options....beyond Kelly, who I wouldn't really class as a proper romance option, given she doesn't even get a cutscene.

I'm curious as to where you stand on the issue of "Should BioWare add gay/lebsian relationships to Mass Effect (3)?" I personally can see both sides of the argument - the whole "They did it in dragon age, so why not Mass Effect" vs the whole "Its Biowares game, it should be up to them".

EDIT: And I get what you said about Tali - to most of her fans, its her personally and awkwardness that charmed us

Modifié par Doug84, 16 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[Doug84]

Oh, and about the whole "Asari should look less human" thing - that bachlor party on Illum you can listen into suggests its actually our brains doing the work, if you will. Salarians see the Salarian-like features of the Asari, Turians see the Turian-like features, and humans see the human-like features.



Just my opinion, though.

[Kajan451]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Pretty sure it's their voices and their personalities, not the uncanny vally. I found the human squadmates attractive as well, just not as attractive as Tali and Garrus' voices and personalities.

This.

I love Tali for the personality of the character and the voice. I can warm to that. And Garrus... same for him... he seems to be a great person to be friends with.

[Ehlisuun]

I agree with the OP for most of the post. I wanted to add, despite understanding that Asari are mono-gendered and thus can't be called male or female, the codex in ME2 calls them an all female race.

[Speakeasy13]

Well I'm not big on the idea of xenomorphic romance. I do care about Garrus, Thane or Tali as friends, I just don't get the physical aspect of it. That said, I do understand that love can happen between any two sentient being and when it happens is a beautiful thing.



Same way with just cuz you're straight or gay you should be against gay or straight relationships. The universe should be big enough for love of any kind you know?

[marshalleck]

Doug84 wrote...

Oh, and about the whole "Asari should look less human" thing - that bachlor party on Illum you can listen into suggests its actually our brains doing the work, if you will. Salarians see the Salarian-like features of the Asari, Turians see the Turian-like features, and humans see the human-like features.

Just my opinion, though.

Or it could just be the beer goggles, in their case. Occam's razor.

[Doug84]

marshalleck wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Oh, and about the whole "Asari should look less human" thing - that bachlor party on Illum you can listen into suggests its actually our brains doing the work, if you will. Salarians see the Salarian-like features of the Asari, Turians see the Turian-like features, and humans see the human-like features.

Just my opinion, though.

Or it could just be the beer goggles, in their case. Occam's razor.

I don't think they where drunk yet - that was later on "See that dip in the middle of her stomach? Thats called abelly button - we'll be doing shots out of that later!" That to me suggests the heavy drinking starts later

[Speakeasy13]

Doug84 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This is also why I was never a huge fan of the Asari.  For one, the fans continued to insist they were female, despite Word of God claiming otherwise, with many folks declaring that FemShep/Liara was an f/f romance, despite the obviousness that it was NOT.  (I'm sorry, no matter how female she looks, the label DOES NOT APPLY)  However, from the perspective of the Uncanny Valley, the Asari tend towards the right-side with Miranda.  While this bothers me to some degree (especially the uniformity of their race), they don't provoke the same reaction as Miranda.  Basically, they're too human for me.  In a fictional creative medium which is as interactive as a video game can be, I prefer that my characters tend toward less realism, because, as anyone tinkering with the character creator in ME1 or 2 can tell you.  No matter how human you go for, something will always look wrong.  Thane is especially guilty of this, due to his very human appearance, down to the creepy flashbacks exposing the look of his eyes irisises, pupils, and all.

I'm alittle surprised to read that you're against the idea that the Asari are female. Whilst I agree, I can also see why people argue that they are, in effect, female. I mean, we've never had an Asari with a male voice actor.

But also, as you stated, you are a gay gamer, and the whole Liara thing has been a strong argument in favour of introducing gay/lesbian relationship options....beyond Kelly, who I wouldn't really class as a proper romance option, given she doesn't even get a cutscene.

I'm curious as to where you stand on the issue of "Should BioWare add gay/lebsian relationships to Mass Effect (3)?" I personally can see both sides of the argument - the whole "They did it in dragon age, so why not Mass Effect" vs the whole "Its Biowares game, it should be up to them".

EDIT: And I get what you said about Tali - to most of her fans, its her personally and awkwardness that charmed us

Well I think with the Asari thing, it sort of defeats its own purpose. Why do you must mask your support of F/F romance (if that's the case) by putting up this whole xenomorphic romance facade? The Asari is an interesting species, but the fact that they're mono-gendered may very well be used as a plot-device to closetedly fit in a F/F romance option is a bit unappealing to me.

I can get the "It's Biowares' game, it should be up to them" argument, but I will never buy the "gay romance is wrong that's why Bioware should not have them" argument. I would appreciate Bioware even more if they could make a bold social statement rather than one cleverly masked to avoid controversy.

[Vaenier]

Very interesting OP. Thank you for the read.

I agree that the uncanny valley probably plays a large role in why so many find tali and garrus attractive.
However, I am probably an exception; I enjoy the aliens for the fact they are not human. The less human, the better. Humans are somewhat repulsive to me. When I see human, I see all their hate, all their evil.

This post is hard to word right without sounding like a crazy person. [Which I believe I am to a point.]

When it comes down to it, an no matter how much I hate to admit it, I am speciest against humans. They are a virus, unable to achieve equalibrium with the enviroment. They constantly spread and multiply, choking the worlds they live on. I can approach other species with an open mind to their potential without their destructive past blocking my view.

[Arcadionn]

I agree with OP to a certain level, however, I find myself being more comfortable with both sides of the UV, they both bring something interesting and I am not really unnerved by either. Well developed post though. Good read.

I also find certain few asari attractive whilst I remain completely indifferent to others. I'm guessing there are different tastes in xeno attraction.

I do agree that Tali has a greatly made character and that she is well-deserving of a fan base, but the mystery of not seeing her face grants her an advantage most other characters do not possess. There is also the gratification of Tali risking so much in the name of some relationship you could have. Same for the Garrus/Thane, 2 different DNA 's that could potentially harm each other represents an added layer of "challenge" to the relationship. Garrus is merely more developed as a character because he evolves from ME1 to ME2 and may grow in your mind into something else than a squad mate and friend.

Although some people might not view the Liara's relationship the same, keep in mind Melding was a big deal for her, she speaks of it as almost a sacred thing. That she would do that with you, nudity involved or not, is - IMO - as big a deal as what the others are willing to do for you. Neither Liara or you would die from it (that honor is kept for Morinth  ) but there are still high implications of what she feels for you.

Samara was a not liked by everyone, but I actually viewed the relationship my character had with her as a ...  (sorry for the comparison but I cannot think of anything else right now) Jedi Master and his apprentice... she is centuries old, likely masters powers that you will never attain, she also has self-discipline and wisdom that you will never reach but offers openly to you openly (I was paragon, so she liked me)... it is not a romance (you can sure as hell try though) she responds to your advances with grace but dismisses them as she is past such times in her life...  She is the only time "lets be friends" felt that awesome - imo.

That may not have made that much sense due to me typing this and working alternatively, but thats roughly what I thought I could add to the topic.

Modifié par Arcadionn, 16 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[Doug84]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

I can get the "It's Biowares' game, it should be up to them" argument, but I will never buy the "gay romance is wrong that's why Bioware should not have them" argument. I would appreciate Bioware even more if they could make a bold social statement rather than one cleverly masked to avoid controversy.

I wasn't trying to imply homosexuality was wrong. As for the controversy thing, I think it depends on how badly those lying bastards on Fox hurt or not the sales of the game - after all, including 1 second of a bare bottom got them labelled a rape sim (how, I'll never know).

To be honest, if we have to look to games to make bold social statements, I have to wonder whats wrong with society. Though I live in the UK, where the only real different between gay and straight marriages is the label of "marriage" vs "civil partnership", so we generally don't have a problem with gay rights over here.

[Vaenier]

poisonoustea wrote...

They are a virus, unable to achieve equalibrium with the enviroment.
They constantly spread and multiply, choking the worlds they live on.

You loved Agent Smith's line in The Matrix, didn't you? I did.

He was right. It is only a matter of time after the movie that humans redestory their world and end up being used as batteries for computers. [original idea of proccessors is WAY more believeable.]

Devils advocate: Reapers are the cure for the plague of sapient life. They stop species from destroying their galaxy. Any species that can achieve balance with thier planet wouldnt spread like a plague across the galaxy and therefore would not get the attention of the Reapers.

[squidbunny]

Well-written OP; you aren't the only one to have linked ME2 and Miranda in particular with the Uncanny Valley, either. Jeremy Parish of 1up has talked about this at length, and if I'm not mistaken he ended up playing a female Shepard and romancing Garrus at the end of the day, as well.

[smudboy]

We have to keep in mind, for continuity, we're attracted to Garrus and Tali for their personalities and the themes they deal with, not how they look. Both people are already your teammates and will follow you to the ends of the galaxy.



The fact that Garrus is visually an alien, and Tali is a mysterious one, adds to that appeal. But I don't think that's what makes them attractive. In fact, because of that, I don't find them visually attractive at all. There are only some very brief moments where the photo realism of ME2's characters take a dip from photo realism, but I don't think that's why we like any of these characters. ME2 could've been made ten years ago with less photo realism and the dramatic impact would've been the same. BioWare just likes their talking heads sell.



Samara is regal, mature, humble, brutal and tragic.

Jacob is honest and principled.

Miranda needs a place to belong.

Jack is essentially another Miranda.



It's their social quality. How they talk to you, how their stories are dramatic. Those that are most liked are simply more human than the others. Tali, being the most fleshed out, dealt with a number of themes that were all very personal to her, and she makes you a part of that. As such she's the most developed character, more than Shepard (although that's not saying much) because of her various personal reactions to her trial ("I'm scared, Shepard.") Throw in the fact that she's attracted to iconic Shepard makes her even more interesting, and then her nervousness about it. Again, personality and themes. They could've done a lot more with this character, and Shepard, but alas, we have 9 other to slog through...



Now, if they'd just give Shepard some proper dialog lines and behaviors to make the romance actually romantic...and part of the plot...then that would've been downright -- dare I say -- unique.

[RiouHotaru]

Rather that doing multiple replies, I'll do one blanket reply to cover what people have discussed.  I do like that we've managed to keep ourselves civil and have a thoughtful discussion on the issue.  I've seen too many threads try to have a meaningful discussion only to melt or dissolve into flames

Re: The Asari and Gay Relationships
First, let me state for the record that I am not against same-sex options in Mass Effect.  As a gay man myself, I would've liked it if there were.  For example, almost ALL of Garrus's romance lines are surprisingly gender neutral, meaning his statements could've easily applied to either type of Shepard.  Also, it's not that I hate the Asari, or have anything against those who like them.  What gets me, is that Bioware repeatedly states that the Asari do not count as female, and several players/forumites act as though Bioware is pulling a fast one, or that they know better than the developers.  That's all.  Yes, they refer to themselves as female, using female pronouns and female-related terms.  But biologically, they aren't female.  They don't even necessarily reproduce in a female manner (so far as we know),  I don't think Bioware is attempting to avoid controversy, I mean, if that were the case, ME1 would've been a vastly different game.  And it's true, the Asari do come off as a very fanservicey race.  I just prefer to go by what the devs say, since it is their product.

I confess, I had a certain sense of satisfaction when, in ME2, Samara and Morinth turn out to NOT be Asari romance options (or in Morinth's case, an amusingly disguised Nonstandard Game Over), mostly because I wanted the Asari to be more than just blue pieces of ass.  Samara was perhaps a character who I felt would've been diminished if they'd gone the same route as Liara.  And Morinth...well...I don't think I need to do much explanation there.

Re: Personality And Appearance
I realize that a great many people went after Tali because of her demanor, and I in no way want to suggest that her looks were the driving force.  I'm sorry if that was the interpretation.  For me, personally, personality did have a lot to play in it, but physical appearance did have a lot to do with it.  I'm sure you can't deny that her looks played at least some part in your decision.  After all, we humans do tend to subconsciously judge others based on looks all the time.  I'll freely admit...if Garrus were real, and made a pass at me (or heck, replace Garrus with a few other turian NPCs) I'd jump that in a heartbeat (well...maybe not a heartbeat, probably jump to the doctor's office to get allergy-tested first, but you get the idea.  For me, personally, while behavior and mannerisms are a factor, I admit that his decidedly non-human appearance is what attracts me.  Because for me, humans are comfortable and familar...and Garrus is very much outside that comfort zone.

Basically, the people who say "Why romance a space-raptor (Garrus) or chicken-girl (Tali)?"  Have answered the question for me already.  Of course, Garrus and Tali's personalities are big selling points likely because they're so non-human.  It makes the way they act more unique and interesting.  But has anyone seen Zaeed's mission where Garrus or Tali lean over to look at the waterfall?

*FOGHORN*

[Llandaryn]

RiouHotaru wrote...

But has anyone seen Zaeed's mission where Garrus or Tali lean over to look at the waterfall?

I have, it was a beautiful scene.

I thought "man, I wish I could get a waterfall like that put in my cabin, to replace the fish that keep dying."

Is it just Garrus or Tali who gets that scene, though? On my play-through, I took Garrus and Zaeed, figuring that Garrus would be in on the whole 'killing those who cross you' thing that Zaeed has going on. But I assume that since Zaeed is DLC and not an original squaddie, that scene would play out the same for whatever 3rd NPC you took along.

Visually, I found that scene to be the best one out of the entire game (so far). Before that it was my Shepard floating in cold space.

[Doug84]

Llandaryn wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

But has anyone seen Zaeed's mission where Garrus or Tali lean over to look at the waterfall?

I have, it was a beautiful scene.

I thought "man, I wish I could get a waterfall like that put in my cabin, to replace the fish that keep dying."

Tsk - you should have more ambision! "A waterfall like that AND those fish that keep dying - it'd be awesome!"

Is it just Garrus or Tali who gets that scene, though? On my
play-through, I took Garrus and Zaeed, figuring that Garrus would be in
on the whole 'killing those who cross you' thing that Zaeed has going
on. But I assume that since Zaeed is DLC and not an original squaddie,
that scene would play out the same for whatever 3rd NPC you took along.

Visually,
I found that scene to be the best one out of the entire game (so far).
Before that it was my Shepard floating in cold space.

Actually, any of them will do the 'looking over the railing" thing.

[Llandaryn]

Doug84 wrote...

Tsk - you should have more ambision! "A waterfall like that AND those fish that keep dying - it'd be awesome!"

Yeah, if I was keeping Salmon in there, I wouldn't have hesitated.

[Marilynn-22]

Good read indeed

[Lord Atlia]

Good read though judging from some posts the thing you are observing may not be the uncanny valley. However I have struggled with understanding my own brain over the years myself. If you would strip aware personalities from characters I would still consider Tali's body shape to be the most appealing, probably for the same reason I find elves and draenei(besides the hooves) appealing, they are human enough that my brain recognizes them as human but exotic enough that my brain says this could be interesting. I don't fancy Asari either but I'm not sure why.

[Speakeasy13]

Doug84 wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

I can get the "It's Biowares' game, it should be up to them" argument, but I will never buy the "gay romance is wrong that's why Bioware should not have them" argument. I would appreciate Bioware even more if they could make a bold social statement rather than one cleverly masked to avoid controversy.

To be honest, if we have to look to games to make bold social statements, I have to wonder whats wrong with society. Though I live in the UK, where the only real different between gay and straight marriages is the label of "marriage" vs "civil partnership", so we generally don't have a problem with gay rights over here.

I agree with you, which is why I generally don't want to act like I'm pushing for the whole same-sex romance option. I'd be nice if it were there, but if it weren't, it's still a great game and that's all that matters.

I don't think we're neccessarily looking for videogames to make a social statement, rather, videogames reflect what kind of a state we're in. The fact that Bioware MIGHT have removed the option to avoid controversy (as some "enthusiasts" on the issue had claimed) is a sad reflection that our society is nowhere as civil as we had hope it'd be.

That said, who am I to say anything? I live in a city (Hong Kong) where this kind of topic is pretty much swept under the carpet all the time.

[Doug84]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

I can get the "It's Biowares' game, it should be up to them" argument, but I will never buy the "gay romance is wrong that's why Bioware should not have them" argument. I would appreciate Bioware even more if they could make a bold social statement rather than one cleverly masked to avoid controversy.

To be honest, if we have to look to games to make bold social statements, I have to wonder whats wrong with society. Though I live in the UK, where the only real different between gay and straight marriages is the label of "marriage" vs "civil partnership", so we generally don't have a problem with gay rights over here.

I agree with you, which is why I generally don't want to act like I'm pushing for the whole same-sex romance option. I'd be nice if it were there, but if it weren't, it's still a great game and that's all that matters.

I don't think we're neccessarily looking for videogames to make a social statement, rather, videogames reflect what kind of a state we're in. The fact that Bioware MIGHT have removed the option to avoid controversy (as some "enthusiasts" on the issue had claimed) is a sad reflection that our society is nowhere as civil as we had hope it'd be.

That said, who am I to say anything? I live in a city (Hong Kong) where this kind of topic is pretty much swept under the carpet all the time.

True, true. But I do see why people want the opinion of same-sex relationships in Mass Effect. And apparently its not just gays/lesbians - apparently straight women like to see male/male scenes and I know that straight men often like to look at female/female sex, heh.

As for Hong-Kong, well, unless you're minister in the government, thats not really your fault, heh.

[Schneidend]

A nice post, OP, but I'm afraid it's quite futile. People who say things like "why would you want to have sex with an alien" or "why would you want to listen to video game people talking" cannot be reasoned with. Most of these people won't even read your thread. Those that do will respond with repetition. "I just don't understand why people would want sexy from slimy aliens."



And, yeah, I have to agree with many others, that the attraction isn't really the Uncanny Valley effect. I mean, Garrus looks nothing like a human male, after all, and Thane only barely does. Tali, on the other hand, might fit your idea. I mean, she clearly has a human-like nose, breasts (the largest in the first game, in fact), and a very feminine, very attractive lower body configuration with those strong legs, exceptional bum, and of course DEM HIPS. Even still, though, we can see that a lot of quarian anatomy is very different, and we can only make out the barest details of her face, so I don't think she really fits Uncanny Valley either.