132 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

Slayer299 wrote...

I just beat ME2 a few days ago and after certain events there it got me thinking, like who decided to spare the Rachni Queen and who didn't and why they made that decision. For me on both recent playthroughs in ME1 I've spared the Queen, wasn't trying for the Paragon points. It just felt wrong to wipe her out like that, to my Shep it seemed that this wasn't one of the genocidal Rachni so killing her woujld accomplish nothing. That decision was made w/o any knowledge of ME 2 as well since i replayed ME to get my Shep's choices into ME2.

I killed her once and never again.  I also felt it was wrong.  Especially after listening to her talk about the music being discordant I just decided they had been mind controled.  I had allready talked to Benezia so I knew Sovereign could control more than one mind so I decided she was telling the truth . 

[DPSSOC]

grregg wrote...

@DPSSOC

I don't accept that the child will become a murderer. How does it follow? Consider that a murderer with all life experiences of a murderer does not have to kill again. Why would the child be compelled to do so?

If you were to wipe my memories and give me the memories of some random person I would be them, my mannerisms, ethics, etc. would be there's the only differences being superficial.  A child born with the memories of a murder will be a murderer from birth.  Now they may change, as people do they will have new experiences which may alter who they are, but like most who commit murder this is unlikely.

grregg wrote...

I think the last paragraph of your post essentially concludes our discussion. I do not consider genocide acceptable, you consider it desirable, it means that we have a profound axiomatic difference. Usually in such cases the subsequent discussion boils down you "I did not! You did too!" exchanges.

Agreed.  Our differing positions on the matter stem from our individual values and ethics, mine vs yours, which we no doubt view as valid and justified (even if no one else does) and neither of us is likely to be swayed by some person on the internet.  For the record however I do not see genocide as desirable, simply effective.

grregg wrote...

@Koyasha and DPSSOC

I think you exaggerate the importance of fast breeding, especially considering that rachni start from 1. I mean look at ME history. Council races were challenged by two fast breeding races, rachni and krogan. One is extinct, the other is sad remnant of its former power. In other words, Citadel Council 2 - fast breeders 0. And that was rachni at the peak of their power, controlling multiple star systems.

The Citadel races did not defeat the Rachni, the Krogan did (fast breeders vs fast breeders).  Similarly the Citadel races did not defeat the Krogan, the Salarians did who with a life span of around 40 years probably reproduce pretty quick themselves.  My impression from the Codex was that without the Krogan the Rachni would have one, and without the Genophage the Krogan Rebellions would have ended, at best, in a stalemate of constant battle at the borders of Krogan and Citadel space.

grregg wrote...

Here, we are talking about rachni starting from a single individual. No matter how fast the queen can breed, it cannot challenge the Council without an industrial empire at its back. How is it going to build one without anyone noticing? Sure it can populate a planet or perhaps several and built some ships, but its military capability will be limited by the resources of a single world (maybe several worlds). If it attempts to expand, the Council will notice as they noticed the rachni scout ships.

I didn't mean to suggest they'd build up in secret, but if they're allowed to live, establish themselves, begin building infrastructure and years, decades, centuries later decide to make trouble their ability to quickly replace troops will make them difficult to defeat.  Their ability to place their means of production safe from orbital bombardment (Styx Theta, Torfan) and ground assault (Rachni worlds had toxic atmosphere only Krogan could actually fight on the surface) makes defeating them almost impossible, unless you're willing to develope and deploy ME's version of the Death Star.  If you can't attack they're production facilities and you can't replace troops as quickly you'll eventually lose the war to attrition.

As for limited resources keep in mind we're never actually told how Rachni make ships or what they're actually made of.  For all we know the resources of a single world could provide them with billions of ships or not even be enough for 1 Dreadnaught.

grregg wrote...

Also, I do not accept the inevitability of fast breeding. Sure, rachni CAN breed fast, but do they absolutely have to? Why do you think so? Humans can breed much faster than they actually do...

Possible but one would think if the Queen could stop laying eggs she would have on Noveria.

[Ahisgewaya]

DPSSOC, you think genocide is acceptable!?

I thought there were no people like you left in the world. I though humanity had become better than that. Truly, truly sad.

[DPSSOC]

When it comes to ensuring survival (individual, family, country, species, etc) everything's acceptable. "All's fair in love and War." Now genocide is certainly something that should be avoided, it's messy, inaccurate, and generally unecessary (threat mitigation is best done with a scalple not an axe).



However let's say Canadians rose up and started a war against the whole world. The war lasts for decades and the Canadians are managing to keep pushing foreward and seem intent on wiping out everyone else. In a surprising turn of events the Swiss abandon their neutrality and join the fight against the Canadians turning the tide. The Canadians are eventually defeated with no survivors but the cost has been great. Billions dead, entire nations destroyed, and many areas made uninhabitable by the carnage. A few years later you happen across a Canadian in stasis (the last of his kind). Now knowing that he could potentially start that whole thing up again, would you let him go free. Is this one life (last of the Canadians or no) worth risking the Billions of lives that could be lost in a second Canadian War.



Same thing with the Queen; if you kill her you doom 1 race, if you let her go you could doom everyone else and we must each ask ourselves, "Is it worh it?"

[Slayer299]

DPSSOC wrote...

When it comes to ensuring survival (individual, family, country, species, etc) everything's acceptable. "All's fair in love and War." Now genocide is certainly something that should be avoided, it's messy, inaccurate, and generally unecessary (threat mitigation is best done with a scalple not an axe).

However let's say Canadians rose up and started a war against the whole world. The war lasts for decades and the Canadians are managing to keep pushing foreward and seem intent on wiping out everyone else. In a surprising turn of events the Swiss abandon their neutrality and join the fight against the Canadians turning the tide. The Canadians are eventually defeated with no survivors but the cost has been great. Billions dead, entire nations destroyed, and many areas made uninhabitable by the carnage. A few years later you happen across a Canadian in stasis (the last of his kind). Now knowing that he could potentially start that whole thing up again, would you let him go free. Is this one life (last of the Canadians or no) worth risking the Billions of lives that could be lost in a second Canadian War.

Same thing with the Queen; if you kill her you doom 1 race, if you let her go you could doom everyone else and we must each ask ourselves, "Is it worh it?"

But the thing is you cannot say definitively that that killing the Rachni Queen will be ensuring survival of you and the rest of the galaxy by eliminating her. So, using your Canadian argument, you're saying that *every* Canadian man, woman and child was completely intent on wiping out everyone else and that not knowing if the Canadian in stasis is like them or if he's actually 'normal' like everyone else that that justifies killing him/her off? How does 1 Canadian doom an entire planet of billions?? Or in the case of the Rachni Queen and the ME galaxy, trillions?

Because we're not talking about sacrificing one life for many, what you're advocating is genocide. I think you need to double check that logic of your because it's really off <_<

[binaryemperor]

I always figured there was something sinister going on behind the reason the Rachni were originally so aggressive. I figured I'd free her. I just liked the idea.

[DPSSOC]

Slayer299 wrote...

But the thing is you cannot say definitively that that killing the Rachni Queen will be ensuring survival of you and the rest of the galaxy by eliminating her. So, using your Canadian argument, you're saying that *every* Canadian man, woman and child was completely intent on wiping out everyone else and that not knowing if the Canadian in stasis is like them or if he's actually 'normal' like everyone else that that justifies killing him/her off?

Durring the Rachni Wars there was no indication of dissension amongst the Rachni, so we must assume there was none or if there was it was crushed.  So in my Canadian argument if there was no sign of any Canadians speaking out against the war and any attempts at communication were met with silence what reason do you have to believe this one in stasis is "normal".  As I've said before if you can't prove something isn't a threat, or at least prove that it's a manageable threat, you must assume it is.

Slayer299 wrote...

How does 1 Canadian doom an entire planet of billions??

 
Two words; Celine Dion

Slayer299 wrote...

Or in the case of the Rachni Queen and the ME galaxy, trillions?

"A Queen can start laying eggs in days and have a colony in weeks."

Within a matter of years the Rachni could rival any Citadel race in population.  The Rachni breed warriors, who are mature and ready to kill in days if not hours, and seeing as we've only seen 2 (ok technically 4) kinds of Rachni (Warriors and Workers) they could potentially have 50% of their population as their military force.  The Queen is fully capable of single handedly producing an army that can overwhelm even the combined forces of the Citadel fleet, so we are essentially banking on their inability to build ships to keep render them harmless.  I don't agree with the Turian Councillor on much, but I do on this.

Slayer299 wrote...

Because we're not talking about sacrificing one life for many,

Yes we are.

Slayer299 wrote...
what you're advocating is genocide.

genocide of one

Slayer299 wrote...
I think you need to double check that logic of your because it's really off

Not at all it's simply based on different initial premises.  Most people work on the innocent until proven guilty mentality, I don't.  So with the initial premises of Guilty until proven innocent and any threat that can be eliminated must (the same mentality that lead me to kill Ballak, Fist, Shiala, and that Asari scientist) the only logical conclusion is that the Rachni must die.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 03 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[Mac100]

I always let her live (except frist play through)for the simple reason that the only war they ever started was caused by outside influence(reapers), meaning for the thousands of years they've been around they haven't caused any harm to any other speices of the galaxy, If there as dangerous as people are making out why didn't they dominate the galaxy before the rachni war's.

[mrmac83]

I've always let her go. If the worst comes to worst it'll earn me a lot of XP in ME3

I still don't trust those Keepers either.....they look too much like Rachni.

Modifié par mrmac83, 03 mars 2010 - 08:41 .

[The Evil Adam]

In my first playthrough of ME I killed her because I enjoyed killing things and people in that game that I found annoying, besides the idea of a hive mind and a race without individuals disgusts me (plus I hated starship troopers). Second time around I spared her and I noticed nothing new in ME2 and I did not get the feeling of satisfaction of dumping acid on it.



< not paragon or renegade more of an amoralist

[Mac100]

One other thing hive mind based life froms (Ant's,Bee's & Termite's)are all needed to maintain the natrual order of the planet's eco-system how do we know the Rachni are not smilair in there way of life, moving from dead world to dead world colonising at a great rate dying out and leaving there remains to fertilise the planet for it's next cycle.
We only know that the Queen is long lived there drones may only live for up to year or two at most.

Modifié par Mac100, 03 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[grregg]

DPSSOC wrote...

grregg wrote...

@DPSSOC

I don't accept that the child will become a murderer. How does it follow? Consider that a murderer with all life experiences of a murderer does not have to kill again. Why would the child be compelled to do so?

If you were to wipe my memories and give me the memories of some random person I would be them, my mannerisms, ethics, etc. would be there's the only differences being superficial.  A child born with the memories of a murder will be a murderer from birth.  Now they may change, as people do they will have new experiences which may alter who they are, but like most who commit murder this is unlikely.

I disagree here. The memories are an important factor but not the only one. You are essentially saying that all we are is learned. If that was the case, then all babies would be exactly the same and such things as innate talents would not exist. I beg to differ.

Heck, if you read ME codex entry on AIs, you'll see that not even AIs work that way.

DPSSOC wrote...

grregg wrote...

I think the last paragraph of your post essentially concludes our discussion. I do not consider genocide acceptable, you consider it desirable, it means that we have a profound axiomatic difference. Usually in such cases the subsequent discussion boils down you "I did not! You did too!" exchanges.

Agreed.  Our differing positions on the matter stem from our individual values and ethics, mine vs yours, which we no doubt view as valid and justified (even if no one else does) and neither of us is likely to be swayed by some person on the internet.  For the record however I do not see genocide as desirable, simply effective.

To clarify what I meant. My understanding is that you consider genocide an effective and perfectly acceptable solution to certain problems. A mean that can be justified by an end, so to speak. My impression was that you think it is fairly easily justifiable, but I could be wrong here.

DPSSOC wrote...

(...)

I didn't mean to suggest they'd build up in secret, but if they're allowed to live, establish themselves, begin building infrastructure and years, decades, centuries later decide to make trouble their ability to quickly replace troops will make them difficult to defeat.  Their ability to place their means of production safe from orbital bombardment (Styx Theta, Torfan) and ground assault (Rachni worlds had toxic atmosphere only Krogan could actually fight on the surface) makes defeating them almost impossible, unless you're willing to develope and deploy ME's version of the Death Star.  If you can't attack they're production facilities and you can't replace troops as quickly you'll eventually lose the war to attrition.

As for limited resources keep in mind we're never actually told how Rachni make ships or what they're actually made of.  For all we know the resources of a single world could provide them with billions of ships or not even be enough for 1 Dreadnaught.

I have doubts about the ineffectiveness of orbital bombardment. On Styx Theta Shepard is told that bombardment by a frigate would be ineffective. Bombardment by a dreadnought is a different matter entirely. And if that fails, there is always a possibility of asteroid drops. That gotta work.

DPSSOC wrote...

grregg wrote...

Also, I do not accept the inevitability of fast breeding. Sure, rachni CAN breed fast, but do they absolutely have to? Why do you think so? Humans can breed much faster than they actually do...

Possible but one would think if the Queen could stop laying eggs she would have on Noveria.

Presumably on Noveria she was forced to breed. Perfectly feasible with humans as well and does not indicate that she will continue to breed just as fast.

[Daniel the Mild]

there is also a difference between a human infant's memorys (new or their own) and a developed queen who can distinguish her memories from anothers. Also She claims to be able to recognise that the older memories were tainted (could be all talk, but that would be getting off topic). If she couldn't have recognised it at all, it wouldn't have occured to her to say it.



What right does any alliance race have to live over another? The Rachni seem (and Shepard had this evidence at the time of decision making) to be quite enlightened (enough for advanced space fairing at least).

[barbati99]

THUMBS UP

[Ahisgewaya]

To anyone who thinks that genocide is ever acceptable: You are what is wrong with the world. I'm all for people having their own opinions until it gets into "Genocide is acceptable". Genocide is never acceptable and you know what? The entire world for the most part agrees with me on this point. It's why we have things called War Crimes.



Any way, I always spare the Rachni Queen, and felt even more justified when you learn that the rachni were being indoctrinated by the Reapers. According to the queen they are not usually such an agrressive species.

[Deflagratio]

Spare the Rachni Queen.

Best case, She helps in the fight against the reapers.

Worst case, there's a Galactic War, and there's ALWAYS a galactic war, so nothing changes. Simple decision.

[Deflagratio]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

To anyone who thinks that genocide is ever acceptable: You are what is wrong with the world. I'm all for people having their own opinions until it gets into "Genocide is acceptable". Genocide is never acceptable and you know what? The entire world for the most part agrees with me on this point. It's why we have things called War Crimes.

Any way, I always spare the Rachni Queen, and felt even more justified when you learn that the rachni were being indoctrinated by the Reapers. According to the queen they are not usually such an agrressive species.

You're just as closed minded to say it's NEVER acceptable as someone who says it is acceptable.

As unlikely a scenario as there might be, it might one day happen where one group has to sacrifice themselves, or be wiped out, for the rest of life. The most likely situation is with the AID's virus, Eventually it might Mutate into an Airborne transmission and threaten all of Humanity, in which case, would it be worth killing everyone, to save a few million walking ghosts anyway? While that may be a fairly liberal interpretation of "Genocide" AID's sufferers are considered a demographic because of their frightening abundance.

My main point is, never back yourself in a corner.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 04 mars 2010 - 09:03 .

[DPSSOC]

Deflagratio wrote...

Spare the Rachni Queen.

Best case, She helps in the fight against the reapers.

Worst case, there's a Galactic War, and there's ALWAYS a galactic war, so nothing changes. Simple decision.

Well you can't argue with that I suppose.

[DalishRanger]

I've done both (one different outcome for each Shepard so I can see the differences in later games), but I had to practically force myself to kill the Queen with my male Shepard. I much prefer letting her live and honestly think it's the better choice, but for my male Shepard, he's still wary about aliens at that point and just had to fight through an army of rachni to get to her. He wasn't, unfortunately, willing to give the Queen the benefit of the doubt.



I always feel a bit dirty afterwards when I replay that scene with him.

[Chuck_Vu]

Deflagratio wrote...

Spare the Rachni Queen.

Best case, She helps in the fight against the reapers.

Worst case, there's a Galactic War, and there's ALWAYS a galactic war, so nothing changes. Simple decision.

win

[Ahisgewaya]

Deflagratio wrote...

Spare the Rachni Queen.

Best case, She helps in the fight against the reapers.

Worst case, there's a Galactic War, and there's ALWAYS a galactic war, so nothing changes. Simple decision.

Damn right.
Not to mention that there is ample evidence that the Rachni were indocrinated when they attacked.  So if you killed her you murdered an entire species for absolutely nothing.

And you're never going to convince me that genocide is right. Standing up for something isn't backing yourself into a corner. History agrees with me.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 05 mars 2010 - 11:50 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Deflagratio wrote...

As unlikely a scenario as there might be, it might one day happen where one group has to sacrifice themselves, or be wiped out, for the rest of life. The most likely situation is with the AID's virus, Eventually it might Mutate into an Airborne transmission and threaten all of Humanity, in which case, would it be worth killing everyone, to save a few million walking ghosts anyway? While that may be a fairly liberal interpretation of "Genocide" AID's sufferers are considered a demographic because of their frightening abundance.

By your logic, curing the AIDS virus is genocide. I'm sorry, but that is a very flawed way of looking at it. I am not talking about removing a demographic, I am talking about the murder of an entire race, ethnic group or species. That is and will always be wrong.If you can't see that I truly feel sorry for you.
This thread is making me very depressed and cynical so I think I'm going to stop looking at it now.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 05 mars 2010 - 11:57 .

[DPSSOC]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Spare the Rachni Queen.

Best case, She helps in the fight against the reapers.

Worst case, there's a Galactic War, and there's ALWAYS a galactic war, so nothing changes. Simple decision.

Damn right.
Not to mention that there is ample evidence that the Rachni were indocrinated when they attacked.  So if you killed her you murdered an entire species for absolutely nothing.

The word of 1 creature under extreme durress is ample evidence now?

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

As unlikely a scenario as there might be, it might one day happen where one group has to sacrifice themselves, or be wiped out, for the rest of life. The most likely situation is with the AID's virus, Eventually it might Mutate into an Airborne transmission and threaten all of Humanity, in which case, would it be worth killing everyone, to save a few million walking ghosts anyway? While that may be a fairly liberal interpretation of "Genocide" AID's sufferers are considered a demographic because of their frightening abundance.

By your logic, curing the AIDS virus is genocide. I'm sorry, but that is a very flawed way of looking at it.

I don't think they're talking about killing the virus.

[DisAdEv]

I always save the Rachni Queen and usually never think of
killing her. It might be because I always feel bad after Benezia dies or I like
making Wrex or Ashley mad if they’re in my team at the time.
Plus the tone of the Rachni Queen sounded sincere. When
confronted with the opinions of Wrex or Ashley, she says they are valid opinions.
I’m sure if she was up to no good, even if she was feigning sincerity, I would
think she would try to persuade Shepherd that her/his team mates are just
bitter or intimidated or something.
If she WAS just begging her abdomen off then it would
automatically work with my Renegons anyway. Her words were really convincing
and my Renegons like having a button that controls whether someone lives or
dies. Shows you how much someone likes living.

Creepy psycho stuff aside, and on to the morality of the
situation, if you want to argue that you are safeguarding the lives of the galaxy
by killing off the rachni, one could counter that this is indeed genocide. Whether
the queen is truthful or not you are killing an infinite amount of “potential” innocent
existences. Though you could twist this and say if the rachni do the same thing
and commit genocide themselves then the risk in letting the queen live is also
an infinite amount of “potential” existences.  Thus it would seem that saving lives in the galaxy
would be a pretty problematic motive.
/rambling nonsense

Edit: I have no idea about the blockquote in this post... ignore it >.>

Modifié par DisAdEv, 06 mars 2010 - 01:34 .

[Chuck_Vu]

What if you let the Rachni Queen live, and there's another Rachni War. What if you let her die, and the krogans rebel AGAIN. What if you let her live and it turns out the rachni are a signifant help against the Reapers. What if you let her die, and it turns out rachni phermones can cure cancer. What if... What if... What if... What if... What if... What if... What if...

If you sit there and worry about the " What if's", you'll never get anything done. Pick a decision and act on it. There's always something negative that comes from it, so what. And you'll never please that damn Turian Councelor anyway.

Modifié par Chuck_Vu, 06 mars 2010 - 02:05 .