109 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

I'd rather see the specializations in the existing classes make more of a difference than additional base classes. For example, instead of specializations just adding one more tree of skills, maybe the expert and master skills of a group of abilities would be limited to those who specialized in them.

[emlit]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Batman... with a batarang weapon line

Gotta give props to that one.  Not sure if Batman would kill even darkspawn, though.

[krsboss]

sorry, haven't read the whole topic, however, atm



spirit healer = cleric, due to the way the magic system works...or would you have people channeling the maker to gain divine favor, even though there are aspects of the DA:O campaign that would specific contradict this



paladin = specialization, similar to what a templar is, but possible new specialization for warrior



monk could be a possible new class, however there would not be many possible specializations for it, so it would seem more likely to be a new specialization, probably for rogue



..don't forget, this is DA;O, not D&D. In a way, you could compare 3/3.5 ed classes with the DA:O classes and prestige classes with specializations, however the systems are not even close to being similar!



I would like to see some more variation gained by taking specializations, and some sort of multiclassing system (possibly similar to 4th ed), whereby you could take a talent from another classes talent tree, however there would have to be some downside to this, such as reduced XP gain!



The existing system is a very comprehensive framework as it basically covers all the possible aspects: you have a class for fighting, a class for magic & a class for underhandedness...then wrt the talent trees, most forms of weapon fighting are covered (2h, s&s, twf)...though I would like to be able to use a single handed weapon without a weapon offhand (if there was a possible benefit to it)!



...however in regards to the OP, I guess the only real new class you could have that would not be covered by magic or a specialization would be some sort of psyker!



...I'd like to see Qunari as a playable race...or something new!

[CybAnt1]

spirit healer = cleric, due to the way the magic system works...or would you have people channeling the maker to gain divine favor, even though there are aspects of the DA:O campaign that would specific contradict this

The Devs clearly want it to remain a mystery, just like it does in real life, as to whether the Maker really exists or not.... so obviously not. (Though the mod guy who made the cleric mod class decided to screw the dev's canon and do it anyway. His class has abilities named things like "Maker's Vengeance" etc.) I remember the "early days" discussions where they expressed their disdain for gods with stats and all that stuff. 

I did find it odd that so many chars seem to think the religion of the Maker is bunk ... and yet something was going on in the Gauntlet that sure seemed supernatural to me ... unless it was all mages' magic, something else (divine?) was causing the challenges I faced and keeping the Guardian alive for centuries ... I'll say that much. 

Yet when you go to make amulets for the soldiers at Redcliffe, the Chantry priestess there tells you herself she doubts amulets blessed by her will do anything ... she herself doesn't believe the Maker really intervenes ... you have to persuade her they will work due to the "placebo effect' (because the soldiers think they do.) 

The elves have their own gods and the dwarves their Paragons; and the Qunari religion, I'm not sure Sten ever explained in enough detail. 

Anyway: my personal opinion is, make the class, make the source of cleric's power a mystery (after all, the source of mage's power, the Fade, is also a bit of a mystery), there's no need to answer whether the power really comes from the Maker (or other gods) or just the strength of their own belief, just let them do what they do. That's the way I see it. 

monk could be a possible new class, however there would not be many possible specializations for it, so it would seem more likely to be a new specialization, probably for rogue

I can see ways in which it could be a specialization for either rogue or warrior, but it would have to be revamped so that either fights effectively unarmed with just fists & feet. 

Also, the monk needs to be a robe wearer, not using leather or other heavier armor. Their defense comes from willpower & agility. Their offense from fists of steel. 

I also think it would be cool if that class/spec equipped tattoos as well as robes cowls etc. that augmented their abilities in some way. Yes, I got that idea from a proposed WoW class. 

And dangit, they need to be throwing weapons too, like shuriken. 

..don't forget, this is DA;O, not D&D. In a way, you could compare 3/3.5 ed classes with the DA:O classes and prestige classes with specializations, however the systems are not even close to being similar!

I understand Bio wants the freedom from using their own system, and I agree with you the good thing that goes with that is not being bound by the D & D 4E canon (or any other) system. On the other hand, there's no harm with aggressively borrowing concepts. :innocent:

I would like to see some more variation gained by taking specializations, 

We agree there. I'd like taking a specialization to unlock something ... deeper ... than just 4 new talents that "frost" what you can already do. 

...however in regards to the OP, I guess the only real new class you could have that would not be covered by magic or a specialization would be some sort of psyker!

Well, BTW, what the game has so far of "psionics" seems to be in the Mage Spirit school ... Mind Blast, Telekinetic Weapons, etc. I wasn't going there... but you did. 

...I'd like to see Qunari as a playable race...or something new!

Agreed. To broaden out from the dwarf-elf-human mold, I'd also rather that they not just go to the tired old Tolkien/fantasy hobbit, gnome, half-orc if they look for new races. 

Qunari could be a cool 4th playable race ... or maybe a breakaway faction of darkspawn? That turns against the Blight and allies with humans? If the architect is sentient, maybe other darkspawn decide to rebel? 

Or perhaps you could play as a werewolf ... with your beast form shapeshift as a racial ability. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 17 février 2010 - 04:35 .

[draxynnus]

krsboss wrote...

I would like to see some more variation gained by taking specializations, and some sort of multiclassing system (possibly similar to 4th ed), whereby you could take a talent from another classes talent tree, however there would have to be some downside to this, such as reduced XP gain!

Reduced XP gain may be a popular option from the viewpoint of games designers, but it's a bad one, especially when the game measures difficulty according to the level of the player character(s). If the multiclass character is no more powerful than other characters, it's just annoying. If the mutliclass character is more powerful than single-player characters, than it becomes a way to "cheat the system" and ultimately it still doesn't balance anything at all.

To an extent, I'd be inclined to say multiclassing would be self-balancing in DA. Consider the multiple-attribute- depency problems a sword&shield warrior-mage is going to have - such a character would want to be boosting Magic, Strength and Dex just to get the talents, probably Willpower to be able to use them, and they'd probably like to have some Cunning for skills as well. This means our hypothetical warrior-mage isn't going to be able to just put Magic through the roof like a single-classed mage would. They're also going to have to stretch their talent points further in order to be competant with both classes.

Mixing warrior with a str/dex-based rogue would probably be the most compatible combination, but borrowing from 4e might work here - make multiclassing take up a specialisation choice. It already kinda is with the Arcane Warrior.

Also, speaking of specialisations - An obvious new one for both Warriors and Rogues is an archer specialisation - especially the Warrior, for which all their specialisations currently assume that the Warrior is "in the thick of things" to get the full effect..

Modifié par draxynnus, 17 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[aaniadyen]

I'd really rather simply get specializations which make more of a difference. I had an idea for a kenshi (samurai) type specialization earlier, and the first ability would be Chuudan no Kamae (very basic stance in Kendo, no idea about Kenjutsu). It would essentially increase critical hit rate DRASTICALLY, but slow your attack speed even more drastically. It is not viable at all at first, but by the time you get the last proficiency talent, you're up to a good 95% crit rate, with only a 60% penalty to attack speed. Also, it increases damage from critical hits drastically.

[spottyblanket]

Playing as a qunari or a werewolf would be sweet.

[CybAnt1]

I'd really rather simply get specializations which make more of a difference.

We agree there. It just seems strange, given the game's current mechanics, that a sword & shield warrior is more different from a 2H warrior (in terms of abilities), than a reaver is from a templar. Fighting style differentiates warriors MORE than their chosen paths. Seems odd. 

I still can't see the cleric class as a specialization for anything else (although maybe they could just do a paladin warrior specialization with the concepts I'm thinking of). 

BTW, the game, last I checked, is chock full of undead -- skeletons, zombies, ghosts. And demons. So far no vampires, liches, or mummies but hey there's more expansions coming. It'd be excellent to see a class - or deep specialization - however you want to do it - devoted to fighting them. 

[draxynnus]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I'd really rather simply get specializations which make more of a difference.

We agree there. It just seems strange, given the game's current mechanics, that a sword & shield warrior is more different from a 2H warrior (in terms of abilities), than a reaver is from a templar. Fighting style differentiates warriors MORE than their chosen paths. Seems odd. 

I still can't see the cleric class as a specialization for anything else (although maybe they could just do a paladin warrior specialization with the concepts I'm thinking of). 

BTW, the game, last I checked, is chock full of undead -- skeletons, zombies, ghosts. And demons. So far no vampires, liches, or mummies but hey there's more expansions coming. It'd be excellent to see a class - or deep specialization - however you want to do it - devoted to fighting them. 

I think the templars do largely fit the role of paladins in the setting, in lore and in abilities - and, unless you happen to be an elf, dwarf, or mage, in how they are viewed by the populace. They're a bit off from the classic paladin in behaviour, but that's because the Chantry looks for piety and to some extent fanaticism rather than altruism - but some Templars certainly are altruistic (Ser Bryant in Lothering, Ser Otto in the Alienage).

Plus, since a large proportion of demons, undead and the like also happen to be spellcasters, templars are at least in theory good for fighting against these foes as well.

(Regarding vampires, liches and mummies: Given DA's undead mythos, I doubt we'll see any vampires, and unless I've missed an Egypt-analogue, probably no mummies either. The role of liches is probably being played by the arcane horrors.)

[CybAnt1]

Plus, since a large proportion of demons, undead and the like also happen to be spellcasters, templars are at least in theory good for fighting against these foes as well.

No. I disagree, the only magic using undead you meet are arcane horrors. Almost all the other skeletons, corpses, ghosts, wraiths, etc. are not. 

You would think "Holy Smite" would do something nasty to the undead but the truth is it is only an antimage ability (although it still damages and stuns beings without mana; but not with any particular effectiveness against undead and demons.) 

The bottom line is templars are like wizardslayers. Their purpose is to control (fight) mages only. 

I still would like to see something like the undead hunter - cleric - paladin - class OR specialization - focused on turning/rebuking/damaging/neutralizing (and if evil controlling) the undead. 

[Oak Tree Leaf]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Plus, since a large proportion of demons, undead and the like also happen to be spellcasters, templars are at least in theory good for fighting against these foes as well.

No. I disagree, the only magic using undead you meet are arcane horrors. Almost all the other skeletons, corpses, ghosts, wraiths, etc. are not. 

You would think "Holy Smite" would do something nasty to the undead but the truth is it is only an antimage ability (although it still damages and stuns beings without mana; but not with any particular effectiveness against undead and demons.) 

The bottom line is templars are like wizardslayers. Their purpose is to control (fight) mages only. 

I still would like to see something like the undead hunter - cleric - paladin - class OR specialization - focused on turning/rebuking/damaging/neutralizing (and if evil controlling) the undead. 

I coulda sworn I've seen plently of undead cast weakness and such (wouldn't that qualify them as a caster?)...

Could be wrong though

[AuraofMana]

No point in getting a Paladin class. First off, Templar is already similar in lore. Second off, undead warding seems completely pointless. The game has its share of undead, but not enough to make the class even equal in power as other classes. It's the same ordeal in ME, Engineer's AI Hacking is useless unless there are a lot of synthetics around because it only works on that. That becomes insanely difficult to balance and restricts the game.



The Monk ideas tossed around here are basically stuff from DND. I think DAO is supposed to be purely Western (with Qunari seemingly based off of Ottomans). Adding Asian influences may not be the devs' goal.



Same goes for the Kensai or whatever. Stop grabbing ideas from DND and suggesting them. I am pretty sure Bioware, you know, the devs who made all those DND games, have already considered all of this when they designed DAO.

[Maria Caliban]

A lore-junky decides to explore the Characters, classes, and Builds forum and picks the 'If you could have a fourth class...' thread. Let's watch her reaction:






Oops! Looks like she's running back to the safety of the Quests and Storyline board now.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[mosspit]

^ Lol. No Come back!!

AuraofMana wrote...

No point in getting a Paladin class. First off, Templar is already similar in lore. Second off, undead warding seems completely pointless. The game has its share of undead, but not enough to make the class even equal in power as other classes. It's the same ordeal in ME, Engineer's AI Hacking is useless unless there are a lot of synthetics around because it only works on that. That becomes insanely difficult to balance and restricts the game.

The Monk ideas tossed around here are basically stuff from DND. I think DAO is supposed to be purely Western (with Qunari seemingly based off of Ottomans). Adding Asian influences may not be the devs' goal.

Same goes for the Kensai or whatever. Stop grabbing ideas from DND and suggesting them. I am pretty sure Bioware, you know, the devs who made all those DND games, have already considered all of this when they designed DAO.

First off I would like to say that my interest in DAO started at the point of game purchase. I am clueless on what predates that point esp. in development and might be ill-informed

I dun really see the need to have an "east-west" class segregation in the game since it is transparent to the game. Sure the developers have considered them before making the choices as seen. But those choices were most probably not made without strings attached eg. budget, deadlines etc.

[hexaligned]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A lore-junky decides to explore the Characters, classes, and Builds forum and picks the 'If you could have a fourth class...' thread. Let's watch her reaction:






Oops! Looks like she's running back to the safety of the Quests and Storyline board now.

I can understand being immersed in the lore, I never understood the argument that new things can't be added because of it though.  It's an evolving story, it isn't static.  There's a differance between plopping an order or monks down outside of Redcliff for no apparent reason, and traveling to a new land that has them already.  Maybe I misunderstood your aversion to the idea though. 

Using a mix of like 5 mods I made a melee/necro type character, I didn't go too over the top though, kept him a mage rather than going AW, gave him some sword/shield skills, with some life/mana drain spells, and of course some undead summoning/shapeshifting spells.  Whoever said they have the basics of classes covered is right, I'd like to see more blurring of the lines though, with appropriate penalties for doing so, I'd much rather have the freedom to create my own classes (that are balanced)  than just have a token DnD rehash put out.

Modifié par relhart, 18 février 2010 - 12:56 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I read bits and pieces of this thread a few days ago but hadn’t given it a lot of thought. I love martial arts, but honestly I would rather just play Jade Empire rather than see some sort of generic monk in DA. I really like that the setting doesn’t have clerics. I really didn’t see the need for a 4th class.



Then I woke up from a nap yesterday with an idea for a 4th class that a) fit the setting & that I thought would be fun to play.



The Shapeshifter



Yes I know … it’s already a specialization for the Mage. But if I were to tweak Dragon Age, the first thing I would do is remove that specialization and replace it with a “War Mage” spec that has blasterish talents (Ember, Shocking Weapon, Ice Ball, & something earth based … you know the stuff that’s missing from one line to another).



Anyway, back to the Shapeshifter. That I would make a class, with access to the Creation and Entropy schools (in the same way that the Warrior and Rogue share TWF & Archery). The class would have a new Transformation school with 4 different form lines (all natural type forms much the same way you have spider & bear now). I’m still mulling over ideas for what a 4th school would be, but I’m leaning towards either something summoning based or something that involves putting spirits in your body for a short time giving you a sort of “primal” form chains or spell type changes. This latter would focus on self change (aura of fire, self only “burning weapon” effects, and the like) rather than the mage like focus on long range & area primal effects.



Overall I would make the weaker forms “instant cast” type effects, but keep the longer casting time for the more powerful forms in any given line, much the way Inferno and other powerful spells have long casting times vs the earlier stuff in their lines for a regular mage.



With access to the Creation school these guys would have access to Heal, which seems important design wise, however they would lack most of the elemental nukes and the “mage killer” spells in the Spirit School. They would have some of the big nature damage spells like Death Cloud, but seeing as how much of their damage would be nature based that seems OK to me.



Specializations for the shifter would include



* Lycanthrope (deliberately infected with lycanthropy, but able to control it better than a “normal” werewolf) spec grants werewolf forms



* Blood Shifter (First 2 abilities identical to Blood Mage, but 2nd two would be different)



* Witch Thief (forms like the fade’s mouse form that have some rogue type talents … but each form would only be able to do one thing like stealth, open locks, etc.) This would grant an alternative to having a rogue in the party … but would prohibit you from doing all the things they can do at one time.



Main Character origin wise this would be the Dale Elf “caster.” This would satisfy the “Dale Elf magic is different” stuff that we hear occasionally by the developers. It’s not that humans can’t learn this magic, it’s just that it’s a different tradition than the one they usually learn.



Morrigan would be a Shapeshifter instead of a Mage, which does several things. Among others it: really differentiates her from the Circle Mages and gives you less party overlap in a group with a PC mage. It let’s her REALLY be a Witch Thief . It sets up a more natural antagonism with Leliana with some skills overlap.



Overall I like it that the basic idea fits the lore so well. I’m happy with the idea of a second mana using class that partially overlaps the mage, but is unique and different as well.

[RedEyesOfWarning]

I'll give my idea the name Druid because I can't really think of anything else that'd fit...

Key skill - Trance, the druid falls asleep. This allows the druid to summon parts of the Fade to help in a fight. This stops the druid from moving, using items or doing anything but cast spells.



All of the druid's spells need the druid to be asleep to cast. There'd be different specialisations that would change how the druid is played, one specialisation could let the druid take the form of a demon, one could focus on summoning weaker demons, one could focus on crowd controlling enemies by sending them into the Fade.



Armour allowed would be robes, this would make it very important to pick a safe location to go into your trance in and would force a player to be very careful with aggro. Weapons allowed would be staves, druids wouldn't really use their own autoattack very often, if they did at all it'd be against very weak enemies or in the form of a demon.

[CybAnt1]

The Monk ideas tossed around here are basically stuff from DND. I think DAO is supposed to be purely Western (with Qunari seemingly based off of Ottomans). Adding Asian influences may not be the devs' goal.

Thedas is not Earth, and Ferelden is not medieval Europe, although it is based on it. 

Yes, Orlais seems to be modeled on France, and Antiva on Italy/Spain, etc. but in the end it's an entirely different planet. It doesn't even have to have an "East" or "West" as exists on ours. The monk D & D char (and it exists in other gamesystems) may be based on Asian archetypes, and it may be unrealistic (oh boy I remember those debates, the realists insisting the unarmed fighter should always get killed by the armed fighter, but then, magic isn't realistic). But there doesn't even have to be an "Asia" or "East" or "Orient" per se on Thedas, although you could make a new land/culture where the class hails from loosely based on it. 

Same goes for the Kensai or whatever. Stop grabbing ideas from DND and suggesting them. I am pretty sure Bioware, you know, the devs who made all those DND games, have already considered all of this when they designed DAO.

I don't see anywhere where they've ever ruled out adding a fourth class. And let's face it, although they're now not in the straightjacket of having to use the D & D rulesystem, nothing wrong with borrowing archetypes from it. BTW, given the ease with which the cleric mod class creator made his class, they've clearly left the character creation screen open to adding more, as well as more races.

I expect them in the future; or at least leaving that wide open to modders. And I think lore should enrich the milieux, not become an absolute straightjacket to preventing new possibilities. I'm sorry. I never read every entry in the codex, I've never read a DA novel or other outside narrative, and I'm not a lore-junky. I'm a game player, and I'm thinking about what could enrich the game experience. 

[highcastle]

I think the druid or cleric type classes would have a lot overlap with the mage class (which already seems to incorporate both of those archetypes with the shapeshifter and spirit healer specs respectively). Probably the only class we haven't really seen represented at least in a spec is a monk style class. I don't know if it would fit in the Thedas mythology, though. As CybAnt1 said, yes Thedas is it's own self-contained world, and could conceivably branch out from Earth in any way it wants. So if the devs want to through in monks, I'm sure they could come up with a way. I don't know how to do it myself, though, especially when we've seen no other Asian influences.

Then again, we haven't seen the whole of Thedas yet, so who knows what lurks outside Antiva, Ferelden, and Orlais?

[G-four]

bythebarricades wrote...

As it stands, the current class system covers your major archetypes in an rpg game - tank, damage, caster. As someone already said, improving on the existing classes is key.

Some of my suggestions would be:

Eliminate the ranged tree from the warrior class and rehaul two handed weapon specialization to make it feel more viable in terms of damage.

Rogues specializing in either dual weapons or archery is fine. Make the Ranger specialization more archer focused (perhaps unlock some archery improving skills).

Some people here suggested an unarmed type warrior/monk. Not a bad idea, but I'd like to see specializations that are more lore-based - for instance, I thought Berserker, Templar, Blood Mage, Assassin, and Bard had a great amount of lore - all specializations should be like that.

I totally agree.

[CybAnt1]

Well, the bottom line is, folks, if the devs. don't give it to us, modders eventually will. I'm glad many are satisfied with the existing three classes and the specializations. I'm not. I know we're getting new specializations in awakenings, I'm just not in total agreement with how they're done.



The cleric class mod is coming along, I would have used it for a playthrough if it didn't cause some very weird dialogue, script misfires, and spell behavior .... that's the good news, since the games can't be all things to all people, mod makers will give those of us who want what we don't get ... what we want.



I just implore the devs. to leave the game system open enough so that they can.



If nothing else, I might (hopefully) inspire some modder to make a monk class/specialization too. I'd play it. And those who are happy to have nothing else, we'll you don't have to try it.

[guytza]

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...


* Witch Thief (forms like the fade’s mouse form that have some rogue type talents … but each form would only be able to do one thing like stealth, open locks, etc.) This would grant an alternative to having a rogue in the party … but would prohibit you from doing all the things they can do at one time.

Sneaky witch thief! Kudos and well done for the reference.

[Axekix]

CybAnt1 wrote...
If nothing else, I might (hopefully) inspire some modder to make a monk class/specialization too.

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

A fencing line could be interesting.  I'm not sure how it would fit into the current melee triffecta though: ie. dual-wield = sustained dps, s&b = survivability, 2h = burst/utility.  Meh, we'll see.

[Maria Caliban]

relhart wrote...

I can understand being immersed in the lore, I never understood the argument that new things can't be added because of it though.

Good thing no one made that arguement.

It's an evolving story, it isn't static.

It has established lore and themes, which many posts in this thread ignore. I don't see much "What would make a good fourth class for this game?" but there is "What Dungeons and Dragons class would you like to see in DA?"

There's a differance between plopping an order or monks down outside of Redcliff for no apparent reason, and traveling to a new land that has them already.

An order of monks would fit right in by Redcliffe. They could make wine, pray, and scribe religious texts.

Alternatively, if you're asking for someone who kill a man in fullplate with punches and kicks, you're asking for a specialization of the mage class.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 février 2010 - 09:15 .

[CybAnt1]

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible, magic, which doesn't exist, undead, which are a physical impossibility (dead is dead), or using a spray of your own blood to push things next to you away from you. 

Fantasy doesn't make sense. It's fantasy. I don't get why in a fantasy RPG people are unwilling to have certain fantastic things while completely accepting others.

Yes, in the real world, a guy in plate mail with an axe would hack Bruce Lee to bits. 

For that matter, the real world has had very few martial artists who really were monks, since the Shao-Lin days. 

But then this is not Medieval Combat Simulator, is it? It's a FANTASY CRPG. Yes, I'm asking for something else fantastic. 

Got it? 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 février 2010 - 10:22 .