109 réponses à ce sujet

[Axekix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible, magic, which doesn't exist, undead, which are a physical impossibility (dead is dead), or using a spray of your own blood to push things next to you away from you. 

Fantasy doesn't make sense. It's fantasy. I don't get why in a fantasy RPG people are unwilling to have certain fantastic things while completely accepting others.

Yes, in the real world, a guy in plate mail with an axe would hack Bruce Lee to bits. 

For that matter, the real world has had very few martial artists who really were monks, since the Shao-Lin days. 

But then this is not Medieval Combat Simulator, is it? It's a FANTASY CRPG. Yes, I'm asking for something else fantastic. 

Got it? 

Well, I mean, even if you give them some magical explanation for being able to fight armed/armored enemies (ie they're super fast or super strong etc), it would still follow that they'd be more effective with a weapon, no? 

It's not so much a matter of possible vs impossible, it's just, all things being equal armed > unarmed.  So why bother?

[CybAnt1]

I like to see the animations? Of course it's impossible that my flying leap kick knocks an ogre halfway across the room. It's also impossible that a spray of my blood drives him back, also. Welcome to fantasy.



What's it matter, really? I just think it would be interesting to play one. For one thing it would be a character less focused on gear, or at least the same kind of gear as others.



I also imagine they would be using weapons - Oriental flavor ones like nunchaku, or if you have to purge it off all Asian flavor, quarterstaves. Particularly thrown ones (though we don't have those yet in DA). Just that they don't have to.

[Axekix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I like to see the animations? Of course it's impossible that my flying leap kick knocks an ogre halfway across the room. It's also impossible that a spray of my blood drives him back, also.

Kicking an ogre across a room sounds kinda cool, but if you're strong enough to do that you're probably strong enough to cleave them in half with a giant weapon, no? 

What's it matter, really? I just think it would be interesting to play one. For one thing it would be a character less focused on gear, or at least the same kind of gear as others.

I also imagine they would be using weapons - Oriental flavor ones like nunchaku, or if you have to purge it off all Asian flavor, quarterstaves. Particularly thrown ones (though we don't have those yet in DA). Just that they don't have to.

Nah that wouldn't fit at all with the lore.  It would come off as a gimmick more than anything.  Bioware definitely won't be doing that. 

Maybe Jade Empire is more your type of game?

[CybAnt1]

Bioware definitely won't be doing that. 

Yah, I know. There's a lot that they won't do. Thank heaven for the modders. And thanks to them for leaving their game open to being modded. 

Somebody will eventually. It's all good. Those of you who think it can't fit won't play it, and I can. Best of all worlds. 

Maybe Jade Empire is more your type of game?

I'm a Mac user, currently playing DA:O under Bootcamp. 

I have not owned a console for over a decade, and for a long time that game was console-only. The PC "special" version came two years late, and the Mac version three, and by that time I had lost interest. 

Dunno. Seemed like too much of an "action-RPG" to me, complete with the Mortal Kombat style combo moves, and believe it or not that's not my thing.

No, I'm much more into the pure CRPG with less action and more tactics/strategy plus RP. I also don't seem to mesh with this prevalent meme these days that to have Asian-flavor characters (monk, ninja, kensai, samurai, etc.) it can only exist in a pure Asian-styled world like Jade Empire. I like multiculturalism, gameworlds with both Eastern and Western archetypes. Just seems that mostly the devs don't, these days. But anyway. 

And again back to the cleric thing ... fine ... I can see a conceptual way to come up with a undead hunter class that's not tied to any of the actual religions of DA:O, because I know commandment one of the DA tablets is "religion is for scenery, not for adventuring, and gods must remain mysterious, so their servants can't have any actual powers, or at least any powers anybody's really certain of." Maybe that's the way to go, to keep it lore-consistent. 

It could be a warrior specialization. 

I'm not sure if three archetypes is all you ever need - D & D 4E specifies four class ROLES (not talking about its 16 classes, just its four roles), Striker (DPS), Defender (Tank),  Controller (mage/"AoE user"), and Leader (healing/buffing/support). 

The Leader role seems ... missing. We're making Rogues do it, if they become Bards. Warriors do it, if they become Champions. Mages do it, if they stick to Creation school, or at least part of it, anyway. I'd like to see a class playing that role full-time instead of part-time or afterthought. 

The truth is my monk idea is just a Striker/DPS variant. 

No, what I'd like to see is a Leader class ... class role. Don't call it cleric. Separate it from religion. But a class that plays the role. For the lore-focused, what within the lore of the game can you see as a class that would play that role and act as that archetype? I'm open to new ideas.

But I'd like to see it. And even better from the devs, because chances are it will play nicer with all the game's scripts. 

As long as they rebuke undead.  OK I might yield on that point. 

[AuraofMana]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible, magic, which doesn't exist, undead, which are a physical impossibility (dead is dead), or using a spray of your own blood to push things next to you away from you. 

Fantasy doesn't make sense. It's fantasy. I don't get why in a fantasy RPG people are unwilling to have certain fantastic things while completely accepting others.

Yes, in the real world, a guy in plate mail with an axe would hack Bruce Lee to bits. 

For that matter, the real world has had very few martial artists who really were monks, since the Shao-Lin days. 

But then this is not Medieval Combat Simulator, is it? It's a FANTASY CRPG. Yes, I'm asking for something else fantastic. 

Got it? 

Yes, but they do provide realism up to a point unless it interferes tremendously with gameplay.  The thing with magic is that everyone knows it is mystical and can't exist in real life.  However, a fireball hurled beneath someone's feet, BURNING THEM and knocking them back makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is how the fireball was conjured.
Now as for beating a dude with plate mail barefisted makes no sense.  If this was a Martial Arts RPG (either Chinese mythologies or martial arts stuff [yes, there is a difference, go read up on Chinese culture]), then it would make sense because of Chi.

And Monks in European sense aren't fighters.  The Monk class in DND is based on Shaolin Monks with their martial arts.  It is pretty when Thedas is based on Medieval Europe (like most WRPG).  Adding Asian influences may seem cool, but it makes no sense if there is some Asian-related thing in the middle of a continent based off of Medieval Europe without actually writing in an Asian continent.  And yes, good writers tend to want to have things making logical sense.

[Loc'n'lol]

The only way I could see 'monks' (the unarmed fighter archetype) working in the DA universe is if they were some sort of mage specialization. That could actually work pretty well, they'd get some improved close combat ability without the added benefit of being able to wear plate like an AW, but they would have no weapon to sheath before casting regular spells.

[flixerflax]

This has been said already, but I'd like to see a ranger class, separate from rogue. Spears and javelins could be added weapon types and have their own talent trees. The summoning of nature's assistance (the animals of the ranger specialization + maybe some limited forest-y magic) would round out the class.

Modifié par flixerflax, 19 février 2010 - 03:51 .

[Gecon]

Healer of course.

Can wear armor, use all weapons and use shields, gets a substantly smaller selection of spells, and uses Willpower instead of the Magic score.

Specializations could be Storm Cleric (gets more defense, more skill with melee weapons, gains access to lightning damage spells, gains a stance for faster mana regeneration, and an exclusive buff), Fire Healer (gains the ability to absorb health from enemies to transform it into mana, the ability to heal himself from party damage, and the ability to redirect part of the damage to himself, including a massive health selfbuff to avoid killing himself this way too easily, and an exclusive buff), Wilderness Shaman (gains an area snare, an animal summon, fake death, and an exclusive buff), and Purity Ascetic (gains Magic Resistance +20%, Resistance to Elements +50%, Immunity to Blood Magic, and an exclusive buff).

Modifié par Gecon, 19 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[AuraofMana]

Specializations could be Storm Cleric (gets more defense, more skill with melee weapons, gains access to lightning damage spells, gains a stance for faster mana regeneration, and an exclusive buff), Fire Healer (gains the ability to absorb health from enemies to transform it into mana, the ability to heal himself from party damage, and the ability to redirect part of the damage to himself, including a massive health selfbuff to avoid killing himself this way too easily, and an exclusive buff), Wilderness Shaman (gains an area snare, an animal summon, fake death, and an exclusive buff), and Purity Ascetic (gains Magic Resistance +20%, Resistance to Elements +50%, Immunity to Blood Magic, and an exclusive buff).

Did you not read any of the posts above? Good job stealing for DND Prestige classes. It's not like Stormlord is a common prestige class or anything, and it's not like it's been featured in NWN2.
And, good job making a "Healer" by copying Clerics from DND. It's not like Spirit Healer can heal efficiently already or anything. If you are going to steal something next time, make sure it is not well known.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 19 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[draxynnus]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Plus, since a large proportion of demons, undead and the like also happen to be spellcasters, templars are at least in theory good for fighting against these foes as well.

No. I disagree, the only magic using undead you meet are arcane horrors. Almost all the other skeletons, corpses, ghosts, wraiths, etc. are not. 

You would think "Holy Smite" would do something nasty to the undead but the truth is it is only an antimage ability (although it still damages and stuns beings without mana; but not with any particular effectiveness against undead and demons.) 

The bottom line is templars are like wizardslayers. Their purpose is to control (fight) mages only. 

I still would like to see something like the undead hunter - cleric - paladin - class OR specialization - focused on turning/rebuking/damaging/neutralizing (and if evil controlling) the undead. 

Shambling undead at least are spellcasters as well.

If something like this was introduced, I'd make it more generic and apply to demons and demon-posessed entities instead - that would make it more generally applicable. 

(Incidentally, on the Asian influences thing...I must say that I've been wondering about the qunari. Especially since the ogres strike me as being more oni-like than European ogre-like.)

[hexaligned]

As far as multiclassing goes, someone mentioned an exp penalty. I'd rather if there was an actual combat penalty. Off the top of my head : open up all talent trees to every char, say you start the game as a mage origin, at some point you decide you want to pick up a weapon talent or two from the warrior branch, your char can take the talents but you recieve a 10% stat and damage penalty for doing so. Say later on in the game you also decide you want that char to have stealth, so you branch down to the rogue tree, you now recieve a 25% stat and damage penalty though.

I wish I had the time and patience to mod, right now I'm using one that lets you take any talent with any char, without some sort of penalty it's sickingly overpowered though.

Modifié par relhart, 19 février 2010 - 09:46 .

[Freezingfire]

And Monks in European sense aren't fighters.  The Monk class in
DND is based on Shaolin Monks with their martial arts.  It is pretty
when Thedas is based on Medieval Europe (like most WRPG).  Adding Asian
influences may seem cool, but it makes no sense if there is some
Asian-related thing in the middle of a continent based off of Medieval
Europe without actually writing in an Asian continent.  And yes, good
writers tend to want to have things making logical sense.

While I personally wouldn't want a unarmed fighter. Unarmed fighting is not only the terrain of the east.
Renaissance unarmed fighting
Pankration

Modifié par Freezingfire, 19 février 2010 - 11:24 .

[CybAnt1]

As far as multiclassing goes, someone mentioned an exp penalty.

Not sure about "multi classing" in this game system, but ... maybe they could go the ME2 route and give classes that blend roles. 

The vanguard is a adept/soldier... the sentinel is an adept/engineer ... the infiltrator is a soldier/engineer. 

So fine ... my cleric/leader/Healer/whateveryouwanttocallthisbloodyfourthclasstomakeitfitlore .... concept, is essentially a (spirit healer-creation) mage/warrior hybrid. But - again - I just think this char should have a wider range of buffs, heals, and support spells, and also have some offense against demons/undead. Plus limit him to heavy armor & shield & maces & mauls. (Why? Because no one else in the game seems to be using them.) 

Tree 1 - mace & shield battle talents - make a bit diff. from existing sword & shield
Tree 2 - buffs & support - self, individual, and group augments
Tree 3 - heals & restoration - unstun, unpetrify, uncharm, he should be able to cancel out any negative effect
Tree 4 - anti undead/demon offense - his version of holy smite, et al.  

Specializations could build on any of these roles, depending on whether you wanted to augment his capability to fight, to heal, to buff, or to rebuke demons & undead. 

BTW, I find it interesting people are pooh-poohing magically augmented warriors (which is essentially what the monk-unarmed fighter would have to be) and it looks like the next specialization that's coming is spirit warrior. 

Well, if they can augment weapons with spirit power and are not a mage, why could not a warrior do that to his own body parts (fist & feet)? 

Again, just thinking out loud ... for unarmed fighter (fine don't call it "monk" once again we'll find a name that separates it from religion, maybe also if necessary Eastern flavor)

Tree 1. Actual unarmed powers. Whirling Kick. Leaping Kick. Lightning Punch. Stunning Blow. Hell whatever. 
Tree 2. Defensive augments. Dodge Missiles. Dodge Attacks. Evade Spells. Increase Resistance. Harden Skin Through Spirit. (This would give actual "armor" even though they don't wear armor.) Etc. 
Tree 3. Thrown weapon attacks. Augments for range, damage, critical hits, maybe targetting body areas. (OK. I know. We have to add thrown weapons to the game first.) 
Tree 4. Misc. stuff. Maybe a bit of rogue. Notably stealth. Some weapon talents for when they decide to use weapons. I'd like to see a disarm enemy talent; no class has that yet. They take their nunchuks and knock the sword out of the enemy's hand. 

I also like the idea that instead of adding armor, they add tattoos, and tattoos augment them in various ways. Sort of like dog putting on the kaddis. 

Ehhh, what the hell, I'm just dreaming out loud, maybe I'm stuck in the Fade again. :innocent:

[draxynnus]

CybAnt1 wrote...

BTW, I find it interesting people are pooh-poohing magically augmented warriors (which is essentially what the monk-unarmed fighter would have to be) and it looks like the next specialization that's coming is spirit warrior. 

Well, if they can augment weapons with spirit power and are not a mage, why could not a warrior do that to his own body parts (fist & feet)? 

Personally, I think lorewise the spirit warrior and templar (and the assassin and shadow) will turn out to have some magical ability, just at a weaker level than for a full Mage.

Still, you might actually be approaching a possible explanation as to why a hypothetical magically-augmented martial arts character wouldn't just use weapons to become even more dangerous; namely, that whatever form of energy is involved doesn't "transfer" efficiently (or at all) into weapons.

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

Tinkerer - Skill tree focusing on increasing the effectiveness of traps.

[Daneres]

spottyblanket wrote...

A fighter would be cool. Someone who uses their hands to fight! HI YA!

I was just going to post that when I saw you had. I'd like to have some sort of martial warrior, like in Jade Empire. I LOVE that game, specifically for that reason.

[Hahren]

If you really want a "cleric" what is so wrong with an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer? You pretty much get everything you are asking for with armor, weapons, and spells. With the right combination of spells you can replicate a typical cleric's spell choices. You could even simulate a druid with shapechanger, and a focus on natural magics. Go for the storm type spells, and creation spells. Bam! Druid. The base mage class can cover all the bases of fantasy magic if you think outside the box.



Even a martial arts based character doesn't need to be a base class. That sounds more like it should be a specialization of a rogue/warrior in the context of Dragon Age. I happen to like the streamlining of classes in this game.



No need for any other classes.

[CybAnt1]

If you really want a "cleric" what is so wrong with an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer? You pretty much get everything you are asking for with armor, weapons, and spells. With the right combination of spells you can replicate a typical cleric's spell choices.

The heals are a-plenty, I suppose, except the current spell choices don't let you cure poison, cure disease (no biggy as there is no disease), remove paralysis/stun, remove curses (again no biggy as there are no cursed items), etc. 

The buffs from the Creation line are OK ... maybe a bit more group ones. Would like to see more damage vs. buffs for this archetype, like a blessing you put on others that raises their damage vs. darkspawn or undead just like the runes. 

I also see this class wielding & using a shield, so problem there is no S & S talents for a mage AW/SH. 

Only thing I see missing completely from the current spell selection of mages that doesn't fit my archetype/concept are, again, things like Turn Undead, Smite Demon, Ray of Light, etc. 

Anyway, I suspect you're right, that druid, anyway, (or whatever they name the concept) is going to be Velanna's specialization and become a mage spec for the game. 

Hope it can do what I conceptualize druids as doing ... besides shapeshifting and elemental attacks, they should also be able to summon & control animals, control plants, have spells that augment what they can do in woodland environments, and control the weather (call lightning down from the sky not just shoot it from their fingers). 

Edit to add: I absolutely agree, unarmed fighter could be a rogue or warrior specialization. Not mage. Arcane warrior already seems too unmagey to me as it is. Mages are not brawlers. However, we would have to revamp the specialization system to revamp existing mechanics, and not just add icing/talents to existing builds. 

Still think healer-leader-buff specialist will work best as a fourth class. Just saying. There is a fourth role for a char archetype in 4E, and it would fit that fourth role well. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[Alexandus]

class: Vampire



Abilities: Melee and Magic (Obviously blood magic will be prominant.)

[Nachoman Randy]

Monk and priest/paladin? THIS IS DRAGON AGE.



There is NO divine magic in Thedas.



Fighting with fits is plain retarded.



You want divine magic and shaolin bs? plain neverwinter and jade empire.

[Nachoman Randy]

Alexandus wrote...

class: Vampire

Abilities: Melee and Magic (Obviously blood magic will be prominant.)

Vampires are retarded too. Want a vampire? Play freakin oblivion or red the crappy twilight.

[draxynnus]

CybAnt1 wrote...

If you really want a "cleric" what is so wrong with an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer? You pretty much get everything you are asking for with armor, weapons, and spells. With the right combination of spells you can replicate a typical cleric's spell choices.

The heals are a-plenty, I suppose, except the current spell choices don't let you cure poison, cure disease (no biggy as there is no disease), remove paralysis/stun, remove curses (again no biggy as there are no cursed items), etc. 

The much-despised antimagic line will cover most of these apart from stuns, which in most cases don't really last long enough to be worth the effort or removing anyway.

Specialised divine-flavoured attacks could be covered by a specialisation.

Modifié par draxynnus, 21 février 2010 - 03:28 .

[King Nova XIII]

I vote for adding new special abilities for the 3 existing classes.



When exporting your character from Origins to Awakening I'd hope for something more than the level advantage. Like some exclusive abilities if you choose to go further in your original class talent tree or some sort of cross-classes abilities.

[guytza]

So, to put the "4th class = healer" to the test, I'm playing a mage with creation spells only and spirit healer spec (was thinking at 14 to add arcane warrior)



So far I've gotten up to level 10 and honestly I doubt I'l take it much further. Even with a mod to increase the cooldown on potion usage to 30 seconds and the difficulty set on hard I've found little need or use for the creation line.



Heal is a great spell, scales all the way up and between it and group heal is likely all I need. The only time my allies need heals so far is during overwhelm or ogre-grabs on the tank.



Interestingly, the best defensive spell I've found thus far is heroic aura against missile attacks, if you havent tried it out, throw a basic tactic of ally: being attacked by type-ranged -> Heroic Aura. I was pleasantly surprised at the dmg absorbtion.



To bring this back on topic, I recant my previous statement about a 4th class being a healer type. The game does not need one and frankly, they are boring as all get out if you want to manually control them.



So, I change my vote to no, a 4th class is unneeded and a cleric doesnt fit at all or in any way, you might as well add an android class for all the sense it makes.

[Astranagant]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

Keeping in mind that there's no law that says any and all dragons must be magical and fire-breathing.