109 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

It's all good folks.



It's obvious some of you don't want an additional class. Or think the game needs one. I agree there's some possibility to create what I want within the existing mould, but from where I see it, only if they change the nature of specialization, allow more "cross over" as some of you suggest, and invent the new specializations.



Fact is, they left the game open to it, clearly the cleric mod class creator was able to take advantage of this, the char selection screen looks like it's got room for a fourth class selection -- and maybe 5th, and 6th.... I tried the cleric mod class, other than the fact that the guy mercilessly breaks canon in a way that bothers even me (with spells like "Hand of the Maker"), it's buggy.



So who knows. May not be coming from Bio, but they've left the game open for it, and I'm hoping to see something interesting from mod-makers in the future.



Most of what I've thrown out on this thread are things to help stimulate their thinking.

[CybAnt1]

[quote]
Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible [/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

[/quote]

Except that other than pterodactyls, most couldn't fly. 

And yes, DA doesn't seem to contain non breath weapon using, magical dragons. 

Short footnote: I always found it amusing that there was a whole section of the original AD & D monster manual that listed some dinosaurs as monsters, complete with stats. 

For everybody that just had to go and fight a T. rex. 

[Harcken]

I think the Templar warrants its own class. Like someone else said, paladins are always my favorite, the idea of a holy warrior, but the Templar specialization was just waaaay underdeveloped. I don't want more specializations, I want each specialization to feel like I'm SPECIALIZING, not adding +2 dexterity and a couple forgettable sustainables.

Modifié par Harcken, 21 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[RobUnreal]

Axekix wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible, magic, which doesn't exist, undead, which are a physical impossibility (dead is dead), or using a spray of your own blood to push things next to you away from you. 

Fantasy doesn't make sense. It's fantasy. I don't get why in a fantasy RPG people are unwilling to have certain fantastic things while completely accepting others.

Yes, in the real world, a guy in plate mail with an axe would hack Bruce Lee to bits. 

For that matter, the real world has had very few martial artists who really were monks, since the Shao-Lin days. 

But then this is not Medieval Combat Simulator, is it? It's a FANTASY CRPG. Yes, I'm asking for something else fantastic. 

Got it? 

Well, I mean, even if you give them some magical explanation for being able to fight armed/armored enemies (ie they're super fast or super strong etc), it would still follow that they'd be more effective with a weapon, no? 

It's not so much a matter of possible vs impossible, it's just, all things being equal armed > unarmed.  So why bother?

With all things being equal, even in reality an unarmed fighter can incapacitate an armed fighter.  What more in a fantastical world where magic and dragons exist.


The Monk could be a very viable base class.  Specializations could be along the lines of combat healing (a paladin type), as Monks are holy individuals, through a specialization that harnesses Chi to greatly augment strength, speed, and agility (i.e. every freakin' kung fu movie ever made).  Even a specialization that allowed the use of animal styles and strengths...  just sayin', Monks could work. 

[Gecon]

AuraofMana wrote...

Good job stealing [...]

I dont talk with people who insult me.

Hahren wrote...

If you really want a "cleric" what is so wrong with an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer?

Well, mostly its simply horrendously overpowered, very complicated to play, and the AW has to be build in a very specific way to be able to hit anything, which for example includes having Miasma up and being the focus of all enemy attacks at all times.

Plus of course - you can be an attack mage just fine additional to being healer. All you need is get the spells.

I rather want a typical healer class.

No need for any other classes. 

Theres always need for more diversion.

Nachoman Randy wrote...

Monk and priest/paladin? THIS IS DRAGON AGE.

THIS IS SPARTA !

There is NO divine magic in Thedas.

Who asked for it ? But there is healing magic and I would like to have a class specialized into it.

Fighting with fits is plain retarded.

Um nope.

[guytza]

Astranagant wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

Unarmed fighters taking on enemies in plate mail?  Doesn't make much sense...

Yay. Back to this argument.

Neither do dragons, which are biologically impossible 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

Keeping in mind that there's no law that says any and all dragons must be magical and fire-breathing.

Totally offtopic, but I read an article once that said Dragons might be a combination of the greatest predators of early man, our psyche keeps these around on a subconcious level as a kind of ingrained warning system. These early predators were the jungle cat, the snake, and the bird of prey. I have no idea how accurate this might be, but its makes for an interesting idea given that many disparate societies have come up with things that could generally defined as Dragons.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[CybAnt1]

With all things being equal, even in reality an unarmed fighter can incapacitate an armed fighter.  What more in a fantastical world where magic and dragons exist.

An unarmed fighter could disarm an armed fighter, and then, if the other fighter doesn't know unarmed combat, beat the living crap out of them. 

As far as fists getting through plate mail ... well, I once saw a martial arts master put his fist through a concrete block ... who knows. I don't know what's possible in the real world, but fortunately in a fantasy game you have an easy out, you just say "it's fantasy". 

Hey, Remo Williams could kill people just by stabbing them with two of his fingers, now that was a martial art. 

[draxynnus]

Gecon wrote...

Hahren wrote...

If you really want a "cleric" what is so wrong with an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer?

Well, mostly its simply horrendously overpowered, very complicated to play, and the AW has to be build in a very specific way to be able to hit anything, which for example includes having Miasma up and being the focus of all enemy attacks at all times.

Plus of course - you can be an attack mage just fine additional to being healer. All you need is get the spells.

I rather want a typical healer class.

3.X D&D clerics start becoming quite dangerous with attack spells around the mid-level range, so your point is...?

If you want to be a healer/support character, choose mostly healing/supporting spells...just like Wynne. 

guytza wrote... 

Totally offtopic, but I read an article once that said Dragons might be a combination of the greatest predators of early man, our psyche keeps these around on a subconcious level as a kind of ingrained warning system. These early predators were the jungle cat, the snake, and the bird of prey. I have no idea how accurate this might be, but its makes for an interesting idea given that many disparate societies have come up with things that could generally defined as Dragons.

I doubt this one actually, since not all dragons fly and feline-like features are actually relatively rare (and generally only seen in dragons of cultures that have encountered felines) even if the most well-known example, the European heraldric dragon, does have a felinoid body structure.

From my own research, I'd say they basically all started off as serpents or crocodilians that had other features added to make them more fearsome and exotic. Just look at the basilisk - started off as a particularly venemous snake, then grew legs, then morphed into a snake-rooster hybrid.

[Vb Dude]

Rainbow Monkey class....well you can turn into this hippy rainbow monkey, special abilty for crowd control is smoking weed which stuns and blinds enemies for a long duration...

yep...





No but seriously, there is no need for an extra class, just more specializations imo

[Nachoman Randy 666]

CybAnt1 wrote...

With all things being equal, even in reality an unarmed fighter can incapacitate an armed fighter.  What more in a fantastical world where magic and dragons exist.

An unarmed fighter could disarm an armed fighter, and then, if the other fighter doesn't know unarmed combat, beat the living crap out of them. 

As far as fists getting through plate mail ... well, I once saw a martial arts master put his fist through a concrete block ... who knows. I don't know what's possible in the real world, but fortunately in a fantasy game you have an easy out, you just say "it's fantasy". 

Hey, Remo Williams could kill people just by stabbing them with two of his fingers, now that was a martial art. 

Fist are retarded. This is medieval fantasy, this game is no jade empire. THERE!

Using your fist agaisn't a dragon, a brood mother, a armored juggernaut, a evasive assasin with deadly aim with daggers, an archer or a magic shielded mage is just RETARDED.

Weapons are there for a freakin reason, you need getting close for using your fist, weapons are there for max damage and REACH. Reach in real life is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD, the more the better, the more the safer and the deadlier.

An unarmed person can't disarm no one before he gets stabbed.

Monks are in dungeons and dragons for the stupid anime kids. Anime sucks, makes kids stupid.

Also the monk class sucked in D&D.


And with the cleric debate... dragon age is a single player game with no gods involved. THERE, you want a cleric paladin? play a freakin spirit healer/arcane warrior. Healing is freakin borin' in a single palyer game.

[Gecon]

draxynnus wrote...
3.X D&D clerics start becoming quite dangerous with attack spells around the mid-level range, so your point is...?

Err, no. YOUR point is ? This isnt D&D, obviously. Or at least until now I thought it would be obvious.

If you want to be a healer/support character, choose mostly healing/supporting spells..

I already wrote I want to have defense and being able to wrack opponents with weapons WITHOUT having to cast all kinds of spells to be able to do so. I want to wrack opponents with weapons so I can save my mana for healing. Also, I want a healer class which allows access to all kinds of mana regain abilities which would be overpowered on a mage.

Nachoman Randy 666 wrote...
Fist are retarded. This is medieval fantasy, this game is no jade empire.

Err, Martial Arts where only more popular in Asia than in Europe because there was a shortage of iron in Asia, so nobody could afford something like a plate mail in Asia and many people couldnt afford a sword (and also where not allowed to wield one by society rules). Europe had their own Martial Arts anyway, even back in mediveal times. Also, I dont see the harm of having another class. Main issue I see is how to make a Monk a full featured class with specializations, but I think it shouldnt be too hard to make them up either - make a tank monk, a debuff monk, an offensive monk, and a buffer monk spec and you'll be good.

[nuculerman]

As much as I'd love a real Cleric class I have to agree that I'd rather just see Bioware devote all their time to better balancing in DA2. This would require giving 2H warriors better DPS, nerfing the hell out of half the mage spells, getting rid of stealth bombing altogether. I'm sure there are other things but I've only gone through three whole playthroughs so far so I'm not qualified to judge everything that needs to get fixed. I'd also like to see some more spell combos since they way over hyped them in my opinion for the amount of combos we actually got.

[spottyblanket]

I think as the timeline goes along in future games (playing in a future feradelan would be awesome), things may change.

[Spitz6860]

Bioware really put themselves in a corner on this, the three basic classes pretty much cover all classes in a fantasy setting, you can't really make a class that's as outstanding as the 3 in the game.

[Noviere]

I like the 3 class system. It covers all the bases. Having specializations for... specializing... works for me.

[CybAnt1]

That's the great thing about a moddable game. What works for some people doesn't work for others. For those who like to take things some place the devs. won't go (because they have to please everybody) -- there's mods.



Personally, I think even Bio may make additional classes at some point - there's a lot of room on the character creator screen for more.



I don't think I like the specialization system per se, I'll repeat again, it seems odd to me that a bard has only four songs, that the only thing that makes the ranger a ranger is 3 different animals he can summon, that a templar is less different from a reaver than a s & s warrior from a 2H warrior, that it looks like the druid is just gonna get 4 bonus spells over an ordinary mage, that some aspects of arcane warrior just don't make any sense, that shapeshifting should have more than 3 forms, that rogues & warriors have the EXACT SAME archery & dual wield trees, and that there is hardly any summoning magic for mages. Well, until you use the evocation mod, anyway.



It's POSSIBLE you could make unarmed fighter a specialization for any of the three classes, but I repeat only by reworking the specialization system (not that I'm opposed) so that it touches core mechanics.



However, Leader/Healer/Full-Time Supporter (again I'm avoiding that word, "cleric") seems to really be a core class. I know some people wouldn't play one because it wouldn't do anything offensive (although as I keep saying there is precedent in most rpgs for making its offense focused on certain types of enemies, but anyway).



Tinkerer could work as a specialization for rogues.

[Nachoman Randy 666]

Nachoman Randy 666 wrote...
Fist are retarded. This is medieval fantasy, this game is no jade empire.

Err, Martial Arts where only more popular in Asia than in Europe because there was a shortage of iron in Asia, so nobody could afford something like a plate mail in Asia and many people couldnt afford a sword (and also where not allowed to wield one by society rules). Europe had their own Martial Arts anyway, even back in mediveal times. Also, I dont see the harm of having another class. Main issue I see is how to make a Monk a full featured class with specializations, but I think it shouldnt be too hard to make them up either - make a tank monk, a debuff monk, an offensive monk, and a buffer monk spec and you'll be good.

Ok, but you know what? a sword is still MUCH better than a peasant fist. Hell a dagger too. Martial arts are good for having a defense system, but against an armored oponent, are just goddamn retarded.

Also, you don't make sense with the cleric post.

Modifié par Nachoman Randy 666, 23 février 2010 - 04:29 .

[draxynnus]

Gecon wrote...

draxynnus wrote...
3.X D&D clerics start becoming quite dangerous with attack spells around the mid-level range, so your point is...?

Err, no. YOUR point is ? This isnt D&D, obviously. Or at least until now I thought it would be obvious.

The point: That the healer doesn't need to have a completely pacifistic spell list. That's just the most obvious example since people have been referring to healers as a "cleric-like class" pretty much since the discussion started - however, most games with a dedicated healer class give that class some damaging spells, although obviously usually not as powerful as those carried by the magical offense classes.

Gecon wrote...

If you want to be a healer/support character, choose mostly healing/supporting spells..

I already wrote I want to have defense and being able to wrack opponents with weapons WITHOUT having to cast all kinds of spells to be able to do so. I want to wrack opponents with weapons so I can save my mana for healing. Also, I want a healer class which allows access to all kinds of mana regain abilities which would be overpowered on a mage.

And there in bold is the actual answer to my previous "your point being" question. You want a class which is cut down on options so it can be superpowered in one option. It strikes me that the need isn't really there - Wynne can do a good enough job of keeping up on the healing as a dedicated healer in most cases (and she doesn't have that much non-healing stuff), that my gut feeling is that if the mana regen abilities you ask for would be overpowered on a mage, they'd probably still be overpowered on a class restricted to healing/support.

Regarding your opinion with melee combat - that's something I do kind of sympathise with you, in that Arcane Warrior doesn't really allow for mixing magic and melee effectively (instead being treated as a toggle between "non-melee mode" and "okay, you can cast spells if you REALLY want to but it's gonna COST ya" mode. However, I see this more as an issue with Arcane Warrior - I'd rather see AW made so that it is more viable to case spells between swings at the cost of not being such a powerful melee combat that it can outshine the dedicated warriors by activating modes and autoattacking.

[Nachoman Randy 666]

"Regarding your opinion with melee combat - that's something I do kind of sympathise with you, in that Arcane Warrior doesn't really allow for mixing magic and melee effectively (instead being treated as a toggle between "non-melee mode" and "okay, you can cast spells if you REALLY want to but it's gonna COST ya" mode. However, I see this more as an issue with Arcane Warrior - I'd rather see AW made so that it is more viable to case spells between swings at the cost of not being such a powerful melee combat that it can outshine the dedicated warriors by activating modes and autoattacking."

Arcane Warriors are fine. ¿You want to cast? You can, just dont have combat magic on. You want to melee? Have combat magic on.

[Masticetobbacco]

gunslinger

shaman

alchemist

asian warrior

[draxynnus]

Nachoman Randy 666 wrote...



"Regarding your opinion with melee combat - that's something I do kind of sympathise with you, in that Arcane Warrior doesn't really allow for mixing magic and melee effectively (instead being treated as a toggle between "non-melee mode" and "okay, you can cast spells if you REALLY want to but it's gonna COST ya" mode. However, I see this more as an issue with Arcane Warrior - I'd rather see AW made so that it is more viable to case spells between swings at the cost of not being such a powerful melee combat that it can outshine the dedicated warriors by activating modes and autoattacking."

Arcane Warriors are fine. ¿You want to cast? You can, just dont have combat magic on. You want to melee? Have combat magic on.

Combat magic has a 10 second cooldown, so it isn't that smooth. In practise, if you're playing the healer role, you'd have to be copping the +50% fatigue or be out of Combat Magic mode (and thus sucking in melee) for most of the battle, unless it's so easy you don't need to throw heals.

This is the flaw - activating Combat Magic feels, to me, to be pretty much what Shapeshifter was supposed to be - you use THIS mode for casting spells and THIS mode for melee. While the AW can still cast and maintain spells while in melee mode, the +50% is a very strong disincentive to doing so. It's a playstyle I'd rather see left to a functional shapeshifter while the Arcane Warrior does something different - like being able to effectively blend magic and swordplay (or axe- or mace-work) without being as tough as a warrior or a fixed shapeshifter in bear form.

[CybAnt1]

The other problem with saying "AW/SH mage" "is" "the namethisfourthclasshere" (so to speak) is you can't become one until level 14, unless, of course, you mod/cheat. Therefore, you have to wait quite a while to "be what you want to be".



Also, the only char-specs with good group buffs (as opposed to individual) are bards or champions.

[UberuceIAm]

I'd have liked it if Shapeshifter had been made a fourth class and then bumped up power to something between its current state and the overly beefy(but very fun) Fade shifting.

[jsachun]

Angels



& the Demons

[Elanareon]

DRUID!!!