Barbarians.
If you could have a fourth class for this game, what would it be?
Débuté par
CybAnt1
, févr. 16 2010 04:53
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#102
Posté 25 février 2010 - 02:19
Norxband
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Monk, Guardian, Ninja, or Lancer one of these for the fourth class.
#103
Posté 25 février 2010 - 02:50
Gecon
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Err - its not overpowered if I die all the time !UberuceIAm wrote...
I'd have liked it if Shapeshifter had been made a fourth class and then bumped up power to something between its current state and the overly beefy(but very fun) Fade shifting.
:innocent:
:devil:Still the Fade is actually my favorite section of DA:O, which is kind of weird, because I usually deeply hate solo parts in a party based game (I definitely did in KotoR, NWN2, ...). But the Fade is a real fun challenge.
Well - they're healers. Therefore should focus on that, esp since its a party based game. Also, the D&D Cleric is a bad example because its commonly agreed they are overpowered.draxynnus wrote...
That the healer doesn't need to have a completely pacifistic spell list.
I dont oppose attack spells in specializations, by the way, but then you should have to take that specialization for it, and they should then be Int-based, not Willpower-based.
Well ... yeah, I want a class with a different focus. That means it would get better in some fields but worse in others. Thats pretty much what classes are ... no ?draxynnus wrote...
You want a class which is cut down on
options so it can be superpowered in one option.
Given the fact we have to handle a party size of only 4 people, we couldnt make the new class a REQUIRED class like the other 3 are. So yes, mages need to be able to keep up with healing.draxynnus wrote...
It strikes me that the
need isn't really there - Wynne can do a good enough job of keeping up
on the healing as a dedicated healer in most cases [...]
#104
Posté 25 février 2010 - 05:10
sajahVarel
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I think if there is to be a 4th class in the game, that would some kind of scholar, like a buffer but relying on stamina (so that dwarves could use it).
What do we put in that kind of character ?
First, for the origins, I would pick Human & Dwarf noble et Dalish elf. (mages are already scolars in their ways and dwarven commoner & city elves are too stupid, no offense
) .
For the skills : 1 points every 2 levels (like rogues), as they are not fighter and don't do magic to power them up.
Talents :
They would get common stamina talents (archery and dual wielding), and two other branches :
Scholar & Combat knowledge.
Scolar :
First row : 4 skills based on the codex (obviously for a scolar),
1. A passive talent that boost stats depending on the codex enties (the more you have, the more bonuses you get).
2. A sustained talent relying on the monster codex entries. When active, your party get some bonuses when attacking or defending against creatures unlocked in the codex.
3. & 4. two upgrades talents for ones above.
Second row : medecine (based on dexterity & willpower)
1. first aid (activation): the scolar can provide limited help in battle, and so he can use poultices and injury kits on allies (at short range).
2. passive talent enhancing the healing effet of the items when used with first aid.
3. passive talent enhancing the injury kits (they can heal an additionnal injury when used with first aid).
4. Painkillers (activation) : when using poultices on allies, they temporary nullify the stamina cost of talents (the activated ones, not the sustained), but stop the stamina regeneration as well.
Battle Knowledge
First row : Tactic Formations (require the same level of tactic skill to be purchased, like the combat skills with combat training). all tactics work on the entire party, provided they are in range of the aoe, and all are sustained. Tactics rely on willpower.
1. Turtle formation : Melee attacks increase the threat, and shield equiped characters get a bonus to defense and armor. Ranged (including staves) attackers have a reduced defense but their stamina and mana regeneration are increased.
2. Spike formation : all ranged and percing weapons deal more damages, but defense and armors are reduced.
3. Claw formation : melee attacks deals +20% critical damages and have more chances to deal critical regural attacks, but ranged attacks won't deal critical attacks anymore, mages will need 10% less mana to activate spells.
4. Blitz Formation : Attack & movement speed increased, and magic attacks deal +10% damages, but stamina and mana regeneration is cut by half.
(turtle, spike, claw and blitz formations can't be used together).
Second Row : Battle commands.
1. Weakness revealed (activated) : the target will suffer a penalty to attack and armor.
2. Counter evade (activated) : each time the target should evade a hit he will be struck by half of the damages of that hit.
3. Battle tips (sustained) : the ally buffed will spend 30% less stamina on sustained talents, but attack speed is reduced.
4. Tactical managment (passive): enhance all four formations and reduce their stamina sustaining cost. Additionnaly counted evade and weakness revealed will gain enhanced bonuses.
Third Row : Battlefield preparation
1.Battle plan (passive) : when activating a formation, party mana & stamina pools will be enhanced by 15%.
2.Quick trapping (passive) : trapping time in battle is reduced. (depending on dexterity)
3.Field knowledge (sustained) : knowing the advantages and disadvantages of the field you are standing, you can drive ennemies into natural traps like tripping on rocks or roots, reducing their movement and attack speed in the area.
4. instant trapping (sustained): trapping time is nullified, but you don't deal any damages while in this mode.
Specializations :
- Priest : priests fight with their hearts filled with their faith in the Maker, and faith is a powerful weapon... (based on willpower, and works pretty much like the bard).
1. Strong faith (passive) : released from any doubt by the Chant, the priest is more resilient when facing mental spells, nullifying their effect (most of the time...).
2. Blessing Prayer (sustained): the priest kneel before the Maker and begin to sing the Chant, while he can't do anything else than chanting, the party members filled by his faith will get bonuses to attack and damages.
3. Faithful strike (attack) : using all is will, the priest strikes his ennemy where it hurts the most, give a damage bonus based on willpower (with bishop talent, the strike will also knockdown).
4. Bishop (passive) : enhance all previous talents, and giving to blessing prayer a penalty to ennemies in the area (reducing their attack and critical damages on other party members).
- Alchemist : alchemists are masters in crafting potions and poisons.
1. Basic alchemy (passive) : give special recipes you can't get anywhere else and that can't be crafted or used otherwise (like stamina potions, regen potions, dual element grenade and coatings, etc...).
2. Improved alchemy (passive) : like above with new recipes (like aoe healing grenade, sleeping grenade, aoe stamina grenade, etc...).
3. Expert alchemy : like above... (but cooler stuff, like aoe haste potion, knockback coating, yeah like the shield bash..., anti darkspawn or undead coating, spellpower potion).
4. Master alchemy : best recipes (like large aoe deadly grenades like the death cloud or mana cleanse grenade or walking bomb poison) and potion mixing recipes, giving the capability to get potions like HP/MP potions, all resistances potions etc...
- Engineer : same thing like alchemist, but with traps ^^
1. Basic engineering : can craft complex traps (like healing traps, healing party members if an ennemy triggers it)
2. Improved engineering : as above but better (like forcefield trap, or aoe freezing traps).
3. Expert engineering : like exploding lure traps, dealing damages depending on the number of ennemies it lured in the aoe...
4. Master engineering : Overpowered traps like magebane traps, killing traps (depending on the health), chain lightning traps, crushing prison traps, draining life traps etc..., can also combine traps (like forcefield trap and crushing prison trap to do you know what...).
- Lyrium crafter : the dwarves can put souls into golems without being mages... so why not us ?
1. Basic enchanting : can transfom lyrium and other components into novice runes.
2. Improved enchanting : can combine same 3 novice runes into 1 journeyman rune.
3. Expert enchanting : can combine 2 journeyman runes into expert rune. The crafter can equip a rune like a ranged ammo for crossbows and bows, like an infinite quiver (rune damage will use magic stat for the enhanced rune damage, the arrow itself will still use the str and dex).
4. Master enchanting : can convert expert runes into master runes (no grand master runes for you). Can also use grand master runes like actual weapons. Grand master runed fists will deal rune damages (the physical protection rune will do physical damages and knock back, the spell resists runes will do spirit damages and interrupt spells), and use the magic stat for the rune damages, the puch will stay str based. Rune fists never miss and always get a side effect (like fire runes burn, cold runes freeze etc...).
For balacing just imagine a good cooldown time and stamina cost for the talents...
What do we put in that kind of character ?
First, for the origins, I would pick Human & Dwarf noble et Dalish elf. (mages are already scolars in their ways and dwarven commoner & city elves are too stupid, no offense
) .For the skills : 1 points every 2 levels (like rogues), as they are not fighter and don't do magic to power them up.
Talents :
They would get common stamina talents (archery and dual wielding), and two other branches :
Scholar & Combat knowledge.
Scolar :
First row : 4 skills based on the codex (obviously for a scolar),
1. A passive talent that boost stats depending on the codex enties (the more you have, the more bonuses you get).
2. A sustained talent relying on the monster codex entries. When active, your party get some bonuses when attacking or defending against creatures unlocked in the codex.
3. & 4. two upgrades talents for ones above.
Second row : medecine (based on dexterity & willpower)
1. first aid (activation): the scolar can provide limited help in battle, and so he can use poultices and injury kits on allies (at short range).
2. passive talent enhancing the healing effet of the items when used with first aid.
3. passive talent enhancing the injury kits (they can heal an additionnal injury when used with first aid).
4. Painkillers (activation) : when using poultices on allies, they temporary nullify the stamina cost of talents (the activated ones, not the sustained), but stop the stamina regeneration as well.
Battle Knowledge
First row : Tactic Formations (require the same level of tactic skill to be purchased, like the combat skills with combat training). all tactics work on the entire party, provided they are in range of the aoe, and all are sustained. Tactics rely on willpower.
1. Turtle formation : Melee attacks increase the threat, and shield equiped characters get a bonus to defense and armor. Ranged (including staves) attackers have a reduced defense but their stamina and mana regeneration are increased.
2. Spike formation : all ranged and percing weapons deal more damages, but defense and armors are reduced.
3. Claw formation : melee attacks deals +20% critical damages and have more chances to deal critical regural attacks, but ranged attacks won't deal critical attacks anymore, mages will need 10% less mana to activate spells.
4. Blitz Formation : Attack & movement speed increased, and magic attacks deal +10% damages, but stamina and mana regeneration is cut by half.
(turtle, spike, claw and blitz formations can't be used together).
Second Row : Battle commands.
1. Weakness revealed (activated) : the target will suffer a penalty to attack and armor.
2. Counter evade (activated) : each time the target should evade a hit he will be struck by half of the damages of that hit.
3. Battle tips (sustained) : the ally buffed will spend 30% less stamina on sustained talents, but attack speed is reduced.
4. Tactical managment (passive): enhance all four formations and reduce their stamina sustaining cost. Additionnaly counted evade and weakness revealed will gain enhanced bonuses.
Third Row : Battlefield preparation
1.Battle plan (passive) : when activating a formation, party mana & stamina pools will be enhanced by 15%.
2.Quick trapping (passive) : trapping time in battle is reduced. (depending on dexterity)
3.Field knowledge (sustained) : knowing the advantages and disadvantages of the field you are standing, you can drive ennemies into natural traps like tripping on rocks or roots, reducing their movement and attack speed in the area.
4. instant trapping (sustained): trapping time is nullified, but you don't deal any damages while in this mode.
Specializations :
- Priest : priests fight with their hearts filled with their faith in the Maker, and faith is a powerful weapon... (based on willpower, and works pretty much like the bard).
1. Strong faith (passive) : released from any doubt by the Chant, the priest is more resilient when facing mental spells, nullifying their effect (most of the time...).
2. Blessing Prayer (sustained): the priest kneel before the Maker and begin to sing the Chant, while he can't do anything else than chanting, the party members filled by his faith will get bonuses to attack and damages.
3. Faithful strike (attack) : using all is will, the priest strikes his ennemy where it hurts the most, give a damage bonus based on willpower (with bishop talent, the strike will also knockdown).
4. Bishop (passive) : enhance all previous talents, and giving to blessing prayer a penalty to ennemies in the area (reducing their attack and critical damages on other party members).
- Alchemist : alchemists are masters in crafting potions and poisons.
1. Basic alchemy (passive) : give special recipes you can't get anywhere else and that can't be crafted or used otherwise (like stamina potions, regen potions, dual element grenade and coatings, etc...).
2. Improved alchemy (passive) : like above with new recipes (like aoe healing grenade, sleeping grenade, aoe stamina grenade, etc...).
3. Expert alchemy : like above... (but cooler stuff, like aoe haste potion, knockback coating, yeah like the shield bash..., anti darkspawn or undead coating, spellpower potion).
4. Master alchemy : best recipes (like large aoe deadly grenades like the death cloud or mana cleanse grenade or walking bomb poison) and potion mixing recipes, giving the capability to get potions like HP/MP potions, all resistances potions etc...
- Engineer : same thing like alchemist, but with traps ^^
1. Basic engineering : can craft complex traps (like healing traps, healing party members if an ennemy triggers it)
2. Improved engineering : as above but better (like forcefield trap, or aoe freezing traps).
3. Expert engineering : like exploding lure traps, dealing damages depending on the number of ennemies it lured in the aoe...
4. Master engineering : Overpowered traps like magebane traps, killing traps (depending on the health), chain lightning traps, crushing prison traps, draining life traps etc..., can also combine traps (like forcefield trap and crushing prison trap to do you know what...).
- Lyrium crafter : the dwarves can put souls into golems without being mages... so why not us ?
1. Basic enchanting : can transfom lyrium and other components into novice runes.
2. Improved enchanting : can combine same 3 novice runes into 1 journeyman rune.
3. Expert enchanting : can combine 2 journeyman runes into expert rune. The crafter can equip a rune like a ranged ammo for crossbows and bows, like an infinite quiver (rune damage will use magic stat for the enhanced rune damage, the arrow itself will still use the str and dex).
4. Master enchanting : can convert expert runes into master runes (no grand master runes for you). Can also use grand master runes like actual weapons. Grand master runed fists will deal rune damages (the physical protection rune will do physical damages and knock back, the spell resists runes will do spirit damages and interrupt spells), and use the magic stat for the rune damages, the puch will stay str based. Rune fists never miss and always get a side effect (like fire runes burn, cold runes freeze etc...).
For balacing just imagine a good cooldown time and stamina cost for the talents...
#105
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:01
draxynnus
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Regarding the cleric example: Overpoweredness is a quantitative function, not a qualitative function. A class with healing, buffing, and attack spells as well as melee combat ability can be underpowered, overpowered or just right depending on just how good it is at all of those. My point was that there is precedent for support classes to have some offensive spellcasting capability, and D&D isn't the only example.
(Incidentally, the issue with the balancing of clerics (and, worse, druids) isn't that they had attack spells, it's that by the mid-levels they started being just as powerful as what the wizards and sorcerors had despite the clerics and druids having all the other advantages. Oh, and with a round of buffing, they could also outfight melee characters. The problem wasn't that they could do all these things but that they could do them as well or better than the specialists.)
(Incidentally, the issue with the balancing of clerics (and, worse, druids) isn't that they had attack spells, it's that by the mid-levels they started being just as powerful as what the wizards and sorcerors had despite the clerics and druids having all the other advantages. Oh, and with a round of buffing, they could also outfight melee characters. The problem wasn't that they could do all these things but that they could do them as well or better than the specialists.)
No love for the various weapon enhancement spells? Or Haste? Or are you asking for a spellcaster to have a specialisation focusing on group-buffing rather than just having some group-buffing talents?CybAnt1 wrote...
The other problem with saying "AW/SH mage" "is" "the namethisfourthclasshere" (so to speak) is you can't become one until level 14, unless, of course, you mod/cheat. Therefore, you have to wait quite a while to "be what you want to be".
Also, the only char-specs with good group buffs (as opposed to individual) are bards or champions.
#106
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:13
CybAnt1
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One way to balance/limit druids was the fact that a lot of their magic required being in an outdoors/woodland setting. It didn't work underground/inside/in dungeons. You can't call lightning down from a cave ceiling. You need open sky.
BTW, WoW players complained about WoW druids not being able to cast nature's grasp and other stuff in dungeons. Guess what. They enabled it.
And the limit on D & D clerics was that most of their offensive magic was focused on certain enemy types - demons, undead, the evil. They didn't have much offense against garden variety beasts or enemies. Other than bashing them with their mace, of course.
BTW, WoW players complained about WoW druids not being able to cast nature's grasp and other stuff in dungeons. Guess what. They enabled it.
And the limit on D & D clerics was that most of their offensive magic was focused on certain enemy types - demons, undead, the evil. They didn't have much offense against garden variety beasts or enemies. Other than bashing them with their mace, of course.
#107
Posté 27 février 2010 - 01:32
draxynnus
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Spiritual Weapon, Searing Light, Flame Strike - and the list only continues from there. Admittedly, some of their spells are dual-use (Searing Light, for instance, does extra damage against undead but is still useful against anything) and up to around level 4 the cleric's attack spells were generally less powerful than a wizard/sorceror's. Flame Strike, on the other hand, would probably see use by wizards and sorcerors if it was on their list.
At high levels, 3.X clerics really are less of a case of being limited by their offensive magic being targetted at specific creatures, and more one that if the target happens to be one they're really in for it.
Similar comments apply to druids - while some of their options are limited by environment, they've still got plenty that operate indoors (which, incidentally, includes 3.5 Call Lightning, although it doesn't work as well indoors since you'd never get the "stormy" condition). In some ways, high-level druids actually come out better off than wizards and sorcerors when it comes to magical offense - they can pull out a 15d6 Flame Strike (or Arc Lightning, if you're using supplements) out of a 4th-level slot where the wizard/sorceror would need a 5th. And when it comes to taking hits - I've DM'd a druid around level 12 or so that typically had an AC around 40 for druid and companion, when a fighter around that level would expect to have around 30 unless they've made major sacrifices in other areas to raise their AC - sacrifices which the druid in question hadn't made. (The animal companion could, in fact, usually outlast as well as outdamage contemporary fighters, without even consider the druid himself.)
However, this is all the result of quantitative effects. It doesn't mean that the 3.5 druid (or cleric) couldn't be balanced. Although it is worth noting that the healer classes were deliberately made more powerful than others as a social engineering thing so players would be more willing to play the healer.
At high levels, 3.X clerics really are less of a case of being limited by their offensive magic being targetted at specific creatures, and more one that if the target happens to be one they're really in for it.
Similar comments apply to druids - while some of their options are limited by environment, they've still got plenty that operate indoors (which, incidentally, includes 3.5 Call Lightning, although it doesn't work as well indoors since you'd never get the "stormy" condition). In some ways, high-level druids actually come out better off than wizards and sorcerors when it comes to magical offense - they can pull out a 15d6 Flame Strike (or Arc Lightning, if you're using supplements) out of a 4th-level slot where the wizard/sorceror would need a 5th. And when it comes to taking hits - I've DM'd a druid around level 12 or so that typically had an AC around 40 for druid and companion, when a fighter around that level would expect to have around 30 unless they've made major sacrifices in other areas to raise their AC - sacrifices which the druid in question hadn't made. (The animal companion could, in fact, usually outlast as well as outdamage contemporary fighters, without even consider the druid himself.)
However, this is all the result of quantitative effects. It doesn't mean that the 3.5 druid (or cleric) couldn't be balanced. Although it is worth noting that the healer classes were deliberately made more powerful than others as a social engineering thing so players would be more willing to play the healer.
#108
Posté 27 février 2010 - 11:52
Anonymouswizard
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Spartansfan8888 wrote...
Batman... with a batarang weapon line
Look up thelogicninja's guide to wizards: being batman for D&D 3.x for the basic outline of a batman mage build.
Myself though, DnD style bard, monk, healer type, druid (although that would be a mage specialization), a truely righteous holy warrior, and a class that uses the following system: cooldowns are the only limit on when he can use his powers, but he can only have so many powers "readied" at one time, but can switch out readied powers between battles.
I would say psion but the mage needs more more balanced compatition.
#109
Posté 28 février 2010 - 12:58
Mindlessidiots
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I would like the class that everyone but the PC has, a quest giver class.
Basically instead of actually fighting your battles you just screw up so badly that you need to have some one else to do it for you. You wait for some one who you can hold over the barrel to do it for you, gaining experiance for convincing them to do it, how far they get, and how much you can milk them for. As you level up you find ways to entice more powerful adventures to help you, convince them to do more elaborate tasks, and find ways to give them the most useless reward possible! I even got the specializations worked out!
The Helpless idiot: example, lady isolde
You are completely pathetic, you can not do anything by yourself. Your weakness guilts others into helping you, just don't be surprised if you got screwed over by a less moral character.
The attempted Hero: example, Nial
Your motto is, "at least I tried!" you tried to do it yourself but some how got stuck or injured in some way. You wait for some one to appear to help you, giving some useless advice and excuses about how you could not finish.
The Plot Twist: example, Zathrian
You are extremely powerful, even possibly more powerful then then the people you are giving the quest to. The people helping you will wonder why you don't do it your self and will not find out till the end of the quest. Then you will appear out of no where and reveal why you did not do it, or just cause a plot twist, which will force the people helping you into awkward positions.
Basically instead of actually fighting your battles you just screw up so badly that you need to have some one else to do it for you. You wait for some one who you can hold over the barrel to do it for you, gaining experiance for convincing them to do it, how far they get, and how much you can milk them for. As you level up you find ways to entice more powerful adventures to help you, convince them to do more elaborate tasks, and find ways to give them the most useless reward possible! I even got the specializations worked out!
The Helpless idiot: example, lady isolde
You are completely pathetic, you can not do anything by yourself. Your weakness guilts others into helping you, just don't be surprised if you got screwed over by a less moral character.
The attempted Hero: example, Nial
Your motto is, "at least I tried!" you tried to do it yourself but some how got stuck or injured in some way. You wait for some one to appear to help you, giving some useless advice and excuses about how you could not finish.
The Plot Twist: example, Zathrian
You are extremely powerful, even possibly more powerful then then the people you are giving the quest to. The people helping you will wonder why you don't do it your self and will not find out till the end of the quest. Then you will appear out of no where and reveal why you did not do it, or just cause a plot twist, which will force the people helping you into awkward positions.
Modifié par Mindlessidiots, 28 février 2010 - 01:00 .
#110
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:09
Allison W
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I've yet to see a convincing example of a concept that would require a fourth class instead of just being better off folded into one of the existing ones. With the possible exception of sajah's scholar (it even occurred to me once), but even that is pretty fishy.
I'm a big fan of fisticuffs, myself, but it's something I'd sooner fold into warriors and rogues. No need for Asian fluff here, since it's not like the Western world doesn't have unarmed martial arts. I'd actually suggest making the offensive moves a base class "weapon style" tree a la Dual Wield, with unarmoured defenses probably being a specialization (likely differing between the warrior and rogue, with the warrior version leaning towards ironskin-style "natural armour" and perhaps health regen when wearing cloth/nothing in the body slot, and the rogue version leaning towards defense or evasion boosts when wearing cloth/nothing in the body slot). That fits it relatively neatly inside existing ability paradigms.
I'm a big fan of fisticuffs, myself, but it's something I'd sooner fold into warriors and rogues. No need for Asian fluff here, since it's not like the Western world doesn't have unarmed martial arts. I'd actually suggest making the offensive moves a base class "weapon style" tree a la Dual Wield, with unarmoured defenses probably being a specialization (likely differing between the warrior and rogue, with the warrior version leaning towards ironskin-style "natural armour" and perhaps health regen when wearing cloth/nothing in the body slot, and the rogue version leaning towards defense or evasion boosts when wearing cloth/nothing in the body slot). That fits it relatively neatly inside existing ability paradigms.
