54 réponses à ce sujet

[XWAU_Forceflow]

I just finished the game, and while I did enjoy it immensely I still feel a bit of a let down. One of the big things in the ME Universe is about the choices you make. And while the incorporation of your choices in ME1 into ME2 was a nice touch, the choices you got to make in ME2 lacked somehow.

I do realize that there are plenty of choices to make, but I operate from the baseline that you want to rescue the galaxy, so you have to have the best and strongest team available. Unfortunately this pretty much reduces 90% of the ‘choices’ you have to either play smart or play stupid. It’s stupid not to get all ship upgrades and it’s stupid to choose crew members for tasks that they are not good at. If you play the game with this in mind nobody important dies.

[edited for calrification]
I just wanted to clear something up, by writing "play 'smart' or play 'stupid'" I never meant to insinuate that whoever plays the game 'stupid' is actually stupid! All I wanted to express by that is that I beleive most gamers will want to have the best game possible to import into ME3, and thus most choices will be moot since people will simply not use them for the import into ME3. I realise there will be some who will differ from that baseline assumption, but hoping that ME3 in itself will offer great replayability value I think most will import their best two characters and will leave it at that.
[/edit]

Overall I felt there was only one true choice that made me think. To destroy the collectors base or to use it as a weapon. I chose the later, I had Legion with me and he made the point: The base is a machine, neither good nor evil. And it can be an immensely valuable tool in the fight against the reapers. But I kinda hope that this choice will come back to haunt me in ME3.

The most disappointing choice I had to make was probably the Zaeed personal quest. When I was left with the choice to rescue the workers or not I had a really hard time to decide.  I thought that rescuing the workers would maybe make Zaeed leave the group or in the least make him become disloyal. Being the good guy at heart I saved the workers, and lo and behold. Zaeed loves me??? What was that all about, yes it would have been okay if he stayed (he had been paid) but in no way should he have been loyal after that!

Next disappointment was the suicide mission. For me I really thought that no matter who I send into the tunnels to open the door dies. And you know what, it would have made the game much better if I had been faced with this hard decision. It’s a freaking suicide mission and nobody dies???

Possibly the hardest and emotionally biggest choice I ever had to do in a game was the decision who to leave behind on Virmire. I was stopped dead in my track when I got there. I did not want to make that decision. I really liked both characters, but I had to choose! (Would have been brilliant if I had a third option trying to save both and in the process loosing both!) It was heartbreaking, it was great storytelling, it gave the mission meaning and depth! Best moment in ME1 hands down!

There was nothing like this in ME2. No hard choices, no real consequences (again, if you played ‘smart’) And worst of all, the hard decision you made in ME1 was reduced to a small dialogue were I pretty much got told to get lost. (And this from my LI in ME1! I had saved Kaidan’s life, we were lovers and all he tells me is to screw myself because it took me two years to come back from the frikking dead???)

And last, (yes I know, wall of text tl;dr) I would have really liked to have some real impacts on the decisions I made in ME1. (No, short dialoges or eMails are not real impacts) I would have especially liked to have my decision to save the Rachni Queen come back and bite me in the ass. (Maybe she attacked a colony and now I have to gather some resources to help them… something like this) I really want to have some unforeseen consequences to potentially ‘good’ decisions I make. (Because that’s what happens in real life, you have good intentions and really mess things up with that)
It doesn’t have to be something big, just make me feel bad and have me do something small.

Well, still loved the game, just think it could have been better (and should have been longer…), but awesome story never the less!
If you got this far, thanks for reading

Comments and ideas are always welcome!

Modifié par XWAU_Forceflow, 18 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Faceman2006]

Well don't forget the decision regarding the Heretic Geth, or whether or not to destroy / preserve research on curing the genophage - I can see both of those decisions having some impact in the final game.



There is a part of the game where if you saved the Rachni Queen in ME1 she sends a messenger to tell you she's grateful and will help later on, although I certainly agree that it would have been nicer to see clear cut paragon decisions from the first game having adverse unforseen consequences in the second game e.g. as you suggested, the Rachni turning out to be evil bastards afterall.



My biggest problem with ME2 is that as you also mentioned, the party loyalty system felt very over-simplified - it would have been great to see more clear cut decisions that would limit the squad - your example of Zaeed is good, but it could have been taken further - e.g. having to choose between either Tali or Legion, or Miranda and Jack, and not having the option to keep them all by pressing the 'win' intimidate/charm options.



The problem with that though, as Dragon Age showed, is that the 'Oblivion / Fallout 3' generation of gamers complain bitterly when they're not allowed to do absolutely anything and everything they want within their sandbox games without consequence. But more importantly, accounting for all the possible variations of party members that players may have chosen/excluded in ME2 would present a major headache for the writers in ME3.



In general I think they did a great job with the second game, but certainly hope that in the third game, they implement a more realistic loyalty system that actually allows for party members to get pissed off and leave if all you do is hurl abuse at them and undermine them all the time. And likewise, hopefully the big choices of the first game, and the fewer big choices of the second game will have a major impact on the way the story eventually plays out in the third game.

[XWAU_Forceflow]

Faceman2006 wrote...

Well don't forget the decision regarding the Heretic Geth, or whether or not to destroy / preserve research on curing the genophage - I can see both of those decisions having some impact in the final game.

True on the Geth part, I should have included that. As for the Genophage, while it might have a big impact on the universe I can't see it making a big difference for Shepard. Undoing the Genophage would dramatically increase Korgan numbers, but this would still take too many years to really have an impact on ME3. (Unless the freeze Shepard and have her come back a couple centuries later...)

Faceman2006 wrote...
The problem with that though, as Dragon Age showed, is that the 'Oblivion / Fallout 3' generation of gamers complain bitterly when they're not allowed to do absolutely anything and everything they want within their sandbox games without consequence. But more importantly, accounting for all the possible variations of party members that players may have chosen/excluded in ME2 would present a major headache for the writers in ME3.

True, you can't please everybody, but I think ME1 showed that the majority will appreciate the hard decisions. There's always a group of people who will complain. Question is do you stay true to your original fans or do you really want to 'streamline' everything. As for the writers, well for once they appear to have brilliant writers at their disposal, and second, it's what they get paid for after all

Faceman2006 wrote...
In general I think they did a great job with the second game, but certainly hope that in the third game, they implement a more realistic loyalty system that actually allows for party members to get pissed off and leave if all you do is hurl abuse at them and undermine them all the time. And likewise, hopefully the big choices of the first game, and the fewer big choices of the second game will have a major impact on the way the story eventually plays out in the third game.

^^This 100% true!

[mundus66]

Pretty much every loyalty mission have 2 or more outcomes which can have huge impact on ME3 if they implement it well.

Some examples: destroy/reprogram the heretics, tell the quarians to go to war/make peace, destroy/keep the genophage cure or my personal favorite decide who lives or dies of Samara or her daughter. All these can have a huge impact on ME3 if they implement it well and obviously every character that didn't die on the suicide mission will play some part.

Modifié par mundus66, 16 février 2010 - 07:20 .

[mundus66]

double post :<

Modifié par mundus66, 16 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[McBeath]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...

True on the Geth part, I should have included that. As for the Genophage, while it might have a big impact on the universe I can't see it making a big difference for Shepard. Undoing the Genophage would dramatically increase Korgan numbers, but this would still take too many years to really have an impact on ME3. (Unless the freeze Shepard and have her come back a couple centuries later...)

Not true.... Isn't it insinuated that the Krogan breed ultra fast, and that's how they basically beat the Rachni, was by being uplifted and quickly outbreeding them?  I would imagine it would be a decade, perhaps 2, nobody really knows how long it takes to bring a Krogan to term, but even with 1/1000 surviving now they're not really disappearing.

[Girchou]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...

Faceman2006 wrote...

Well don't forget the decision regarding the Heretic Geth, or whether or not to destroy / preserve research on curing the genophage - I can see both of those decisions having some impact in the final game.

True on the Geth part, I should have included that. As for the Genophage, while it might have a big impact on the universe I can't see it making a big difference for Shepard. Undoing the Genophage would dramatically increase Korgan numbers, but this would still take too many years to really have an impact on ME3. (Unless the freeze Shepard and have her come back a couple centuries later...)

the more krogan,the more possibility of massive army.....

Modifié par Girchou, 16 février 2010 - 07:43 .

[Jazharah]

More choices:

- To keep or dissemble Legion

- To wake up Grunt or not

- To keep the data from the N7 mission 'Lost Operative', send it to the Alliance or send it to Cerberus

- To give the datapads with info on Anto to the Salarian on Omega, or convince him to buzz off

- How do you resolve the puzzle for Liara

- Helping Shiala helping Zhu's Hope again or not

- Stay anonymous/dead or let yourself be properly ID'd again at the Citadel

- Accept the Spectre title or not (inherently to Udina or anderson being councilor)



And there's more. Just look farther than your nose is long. The difference with DA:O is that you don't get the consequences rightaway, but that it takes a sequel to bite your butt.

[madisk]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...

True on the Geth part, I should have included that. As for the Genophage, while it might have a big impact on the universe I can't see it making a big difference for Shepard. Undoing the Genophage would dramatically increase Korgan numbers, but this would still take too many years to really have an impact on ME3. (Unless the freeze Shepard and have her come back a couple centuries later...)

I don't think you realize how fast the Krogan breed.

Modifié par madisk, 16 février 2010 - 09:22 .

[mp84]

Let's not forget Zaheed's mission if Santiago lives, perhaps there may be another mission of that in the 3rd one maybe?



Also, I sure there's an option in the Tali decision, to have her exiled from the Quarians, what kind of impact would that be? Also, there's two options for Jacob's mission, he either lets his father live or gives him a gun to shoot himself. Then there's also Thane's son and the possible impact it could have for the 3rd one too.



Overall, it wasn't to bad though, you had 3 over-arching global concerns as consequences (Heratic/Geth problem, Genephage Problem, and finally the Collector Base itself..)



In the end though, let's be honest, the big decisions you made in the first game didn't have much of a impact in the 2nd game, besides the nice little dialogue which I totally enjoyed, but still, the core of the story still remained the same. Now, if those decisions come into effect for ME 3, we'll have to see, then it would have made perfect sense. Sometimes the problems with a known trilogy, especially in the direction bioware wants to go where your decisions carry over.

[Talogrungi]

mp84 wrote...

In the end though, let's be honest, the big decisions you made in the first game didn't have much of a impact in the 2nd game, besides the nice little dialogue which I totally enjoyed, but still, the core of the story still remained the same. Now, if those decisions come into effect for ME 3, we'll have to see, then it would have made perfect sense. Sometimes the problems with a known trilogy, especially in the direction bioware wants to go where your decisions carry over.

Sad, but true. Deciding to be nice to Conrad has a bigger impact on ME2 gameplay than slaughtering the council or releasing a potentially hostile race that waged war on the galaxy 2000 years ago. While it was nice to get mail from people I'd helped in ME1, I was pretty disappointed in the depth of the "dire consequences".

Really hoping that ME1/ME2 choices shape the ME3 story rather than be footnotes, cameos and meaningless sidequests.

[Fishy]

Dragon age did something right with the approbation system.

(Ok it's was helluva easy to raise the approbation bar with gift but anyway)



The problem with mass effect .. Red basicly mean *You're an ass* and blue mean *You're a good guy* .

[Knoll Argonar]

Suprez30 wrote...

Dragon age did something right with the approbation system.
(Ok it's was helluva easy to raise the approbation bar with gift but anyway)

The problem with mass effect .. Red basicly mean *You're an ass* and blue mean *You're a good guy* .

That's only in ME1.

I'm mostly paragon and I do choosed quite a lot of Renegade options in ME2 myself.

Working with mercs and thiefs makes you realize that some times you have to punch someone in the face to make them respect you.

Choices were better in ME2, more realistic. I didn't like the "save the world or destroy it" "freedom" of ME1. It was just too drastic, too direct. Real life works with details, subtle changes that in the end affect the world itself. The Genophage problem, Geth/quarian war, sending Legion to Cerberus, and Aria's data files were fantastic for me because you really don't know what to expect, or what will happen if you choose one or another.

And I though that save/kill the Council changes a lot of things about how people react to you. "Nice dialog" only, maybe, but realistic: you're are working with Cerberus in the Terminus Systems in ME2. You can't expect from the Council to affect you in a great way.

[XWAU_Forceflow]

Well, while there are certainly a couple of choices you make that could have an impact on the story later on, so far they simply didn't.



Let me try to get into detail with some of the choices you get:



Geth Heretics: Yes, I missed that one in my original post. (As stated earlier)



Quarian Decision whether to go to war or not: They make a huge deal about all this political infighting before and that they now need a new admiral. You telling them what you think to do should not actually have such a big impact. You are one person, liked, yes but not even a quarian yourself. (And hell, your OWN people already treat you like an idiot…)



Genophage: Well, if memory serves me right there was something about Grunt being only 7 and it was surprising that he was already full grown! So even if the cure was developed right away (which Mordan says it wont be) it would at the absolute minimum take more than 7 years to really begin to matter. (And from the conversation about his age it sounds like it should be more) A full population of Krogans still took two generations (so around 60 years) to be enough in numbers to fight the Rachni. Now we are dealing with a very diminished population and no real cure yet. Sorry, the numbers to not add up to matter in ME3.



Samara or her Daughter: Well, to be frank I found that choice ridiculous. Both are equal in power. One has sworn herself to you and his a very powerful and respected woman among her people. The other one is a psychotic killer, who to choose…



The Legion/Grunt decision: Points to my baseline. You need all the help you can get, so not using them is not really a choice for me. (But agreed, that one is highly debatable)



Another point I keep reading. So what if ME2 is the middle part of a trilogy? First, I payed full price for the game, so I expect a game just as awesome as the first and third one. Second, Star Wars anyone? The second(fifth one) was the best. ME2 is supposed to be the (and here I quote Bioware) the dark second installment in the Mass Effect trilogy What’s so dark about it? Everybody lives and in the end it really looks like you are winning everything. (If you want dark, I again point you to Star Wars 2(5) That’s how DARK works!)



But I write a text of wall again. Biggest complaint is, seeing how little your choices from ME1 mattered in ME2. I reserve my final judgement until ME3 comes out. If it really turns out your choices do matter I will revise my opinion of ME2. But I am afraid none of the ‘great’ choices I made will matter much in ME3. Besides it would still have been nice to see some impacts of your choices in ME2 already!

[Cutlass Jack]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...

Next disappointment was the suicide mission. For me I really thought that no matter who I send into the tunnels to open the door dies. And you know what, it would have made the game much better if I had been faced with this hard decision. It’s a freaking suicide mission and nobody dies???

It was a suicide mission... For the exact person who says its a Suicide mission. Miranda corrects his assessment by mentioning he does not have the right skill set for the job.

Your choice did have consequences. If you made a bad choice in your tunnel/fireteam, you would have consequences.

[Alamar2078]

I agree with the OP in that I'm disappointed that my choices in ME1 didn't have a bigger, immediate impact in ME2.



While I haven't had enough playthroughs to be sure I think:



- No matter if you saved the council or got a human one installed they still treat you like a red-headed step child



- No matter if you're Paragon / Renegade / happen to have a Love Interest or not you're treated like a terrorist on Horizon



- No matter what your choices you're shoe-horned to working for / with an organization that at best has a questionable past



- The ME2 story & flow is fairly linear without a whole lot of brances to explore because you basically wind up at the same spot(s) no matter what your ME1 choices were.



IMHO potential improvements could have been:



-- On Horizon your LI could have just said "they need time" or "they are confused" instead of hopping on the terrorist bandwagon. If they're not a LI then their reaction could have been "bandwagon" thus letting your choices mean something [even if comsetic]



-- The Council could have offerred you access to Spectre Gear so you could have had more than just 2 SMGs / Pistols / Sniper Rifles / etc. Maybe they could have added some funding if you were a Paragon and did all the right things in ME1



-- The Rachni could have helped with possible tech to defend against Collector Swarms / sent an assistance ship along with you through the Omega 4 relay, etc.



In essence there were plenty of ways to make it feel like ME1 decisions had a bigger impact than they did on the game but all I feel like I've gotten is promises of impacts in future games.

[XWAU_Forceflow]

Alamar2078 wrote...
In essence there were plenty of ways to make it feel like ME1 decisions had a bigger impact than they did on the game but all I feel like I've gotten is promises of impacts in future games.

^^This and Thank You! That's exactly how I feel!

[XWAU_Forceflow]

Well, sorry for bumping my own thread, but I just posted a simple example on how to make your choices matter without drastically changing anything or making the programmers and writers work too hard:



Decision in ME1: Save the Council or not

1) Don't save them = The new one doesn't like you. You don't get the choice of rejoining the Spectres

2) Save them = You get the choice to rejoin which comes to decison in ME2:

2a) You tell them to screw themselves = game just like it is now

2b) You rejoin the Spectres = Store with some mid-level Spectre gear. Nothing 'uber' just something to help out starting characters.



Result: You made a choice and it made a difference! Neither choice will break the game for oyu, and programming that into the game would be really easy! It could be done with less than 5 additional sentences performed by the voice actors. And an interface in the C-Sec offices were you can buy the stuff.



Hell, if you really want to even it out you could have TIM give you an alternate set of weapons somewhere on Omega if you choose not to rejoin the ranks.



It's not much, but at least they would actively give me something...

[catabuca]

Jazharah wrote...

More choices:
- To keep or dissemble Legion
- To wake up Grunt or not
- To keep the data from the N7 mission 'Lost Operative', send it to the Alliance or send it to Cerberus
- To give the datapads with info on Anto to the Salarian on Omega, or convince him to buzz off
- How do you resolve the puzzle for Liara
- Helping Shiala helping Zhu's Hope again or not
- Stay anonymous/dead or let yourself be properly ID'd again at the Citadel
- Accept the Spectre title or not (inherently to Udina or anderson being councilor)

And there's more. Just look farther than your nose is long. The difference with DA:O is that you don't get the consequences rightaway, but that it takes a sequel to bite your butt.

And the difference to ME1 is that in 1 it actually felt like these choices mattered. In ME2 the way they tell the story of these choices is lacking (for the majority of them at least - the heretics and genophage cure one perhaps not). In ME1 choices gave me pause both emotionally and strategically. In ME2 it's all just strategic.

[Alamar2078]

At this point our best hope is that the bean counters [likely EA bean counters] back off and let Bioware tell the story that I suspect they really wanted to do with ME2 but weren't allowed to do. I suspect that there's going to be enough momentum though that Bioware will get a chance to do most of what they want.



My fondest wish though is after playing ME3 for the first or second time to feel like I really want to play ME1, import to ME2, import to ME3 to see how the scope of my decisions effected the universe.

[Blind Lark]

What? I saved the workers and then Zaeed hated me.

[MutantSpleen]

As long as you pick the Paragon choice, everything is good. Paragons have no consequences for their actions.

Basically I feel the same way as you, but I was a mostly Renegade player so I basically just missed some extra content and saw that the Paragon actions have no consequences.  Add to that I possibly screwed myself out of a bunch of allies to fight the Reapers (I hope they don't go that route, its rather predictable.)

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 18 février 2010 - 03:25 .

[BeyondFX]

It was slightly disappointing, but keep in mind how many games can you think of that let you continue a character with the choices you make through a trilogy?



My guess as to why it's not as big is because this is the middle story. If they have wildly fluctuating stories it would make it that much harder to design ME3. Most likely we'll see everything start to branch out more and have truly different endings...And if not it will still be a great series that sets the bar for future games to try to achieve.