Zaeed is 10 kinds of win and I wanted to coment on your comments on him OP.
You say that he "loves you" after you screw him regarding Vido, but I never got that vibe. Thing is, you need PRETTY HIGH paragon points to use the blue option there, and that blue option is the only way to keep his loyalty if you save the workers.
Contrary to what a lot of people say, Zaeed is a character with a lot of dimension and depth. He has layers. He isn't just some hardened badass killer. Take him on Jack's loyalty mission to Pragia, he has some insightful lines. He gets paranoid and creeped out on the derelict reaper, etcetera.
By choosing the blue option at the end there, you are forcing him to see what he's done. He's gone on a rage-a-holic revenge bent spree... WITHOUT consulting and coordinating with his team.. and it COST him the revenge he has been wanting for so long. You are showing him, that by acting like that, ignoring his team and ignoring all those refinery workers, Vido is gone, and he's pinned to the ground under a hunk of metal.
It's HIS FAULT. He SCREWED UP. and he realizes this. Concedes. Humbled. And accepts your command. He isn't giving up on Vido, but he did learn a valuable, if not costly lesson, one which he is humble enough to accept.
Where are my choices and consequences???
Débuté par
XWAU_Forceflow
, févr. 16 2010 05:46
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#27
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:32
SurfaceBeneath
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catabuca wrote...
And the difference to ME1 is that in 1 it actually felt like these choices mattered. In ME2 the way they tell the story of these choices is lacking (for the majority of them at least - the heretics and genophage cure one perhaps not). In ME1 choices gave me pause both emotionally and strategically. In ME2 it's all just strategic.
The only emotional decision I felt in ME1 was the BDtS decision. Every other decision was pretty flat. Kill or save Shi'ira? Why would you kill her? Kill or save the Rachni? Why would you kill them when they could be such a valuable ally later on? Kill Kaiden or Ashley? Eh... maybe if the characters were both likable.
I found the genophage, reprograming the heretics, and whether or not to keep the collector base much harder decisions than anything in ME1.
#28
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:33
MutantSpleen
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XWAU_Forceflow wrote...
The most disappointing choice I had to make was probably the Zaeed personal quest. When I was left with the choice to rescue the workers or not I had a really hard time to decide. I thought that rescuing the workers would maybe make Zaeed leave the group or in the least make him become disloyal. Being the good guy at heart I saved the workers, and lo and behold. Zaeed loves me??? What was that all about, yes it would have been okay if he stayed (he had been paid) but in no way should he have been loyal after that!
This is when I stopped my Paragon play as I realized that the Paragon would never have to face any reprecussions for their choices. I can't believe they gave Zaeed's loyalty to you. There should have been an actual choice. Zaeed's loyalty vs. Saving the workers. Lo and behold the Paragon can get both.
#29
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:33
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Been reading the forums have we? I make a point of staying out of them until I have finished my first run through, I lost 3 people in my first run through...maybe I'm stipud...maybe your too clever for the game...big deal...grats to you for getting it done with no loss.XWAU_Forceflow wrote...
I just finished the game, and while I did enjoy it immensely I still feel a bit of a let down. One of the big things in the ME Universe is about the choices you make. And while the incorporation of your choices in ME1 into ME2 was a nice touch, the choices you got to make in ME2 lacked somehow.
I do realize that there are plenty of choices to make, but I operate from the baseline that you want to rescue the galaxy, so you have to have the best and strongest team available. Unfortunately this pretty much reduces 90% of the ‘choices’ you have to either play smart or play stupid. It’s stupid not to get all ship upgrades and it’s stupid to choose crew members for tasks that they are not good at. If you play the game with this in mind nobody important dies.
TiM wants it to make humanity the dominant race in the galaxy, and he is Evil. Simple choice really depending on your lignment. You also forgot the heretic Geth, rewrite them, kill them...possible repurcussions....Overall I felt there was only one true choice that made me think. To destroy the collectors base or to use it as a weapon. I chose the later, I had Legion with me and he made the point: The base is a machine, neither good nor evil. And it can be an immensely valuable tool in the fight against the reapers. But I kinda hope that this choice will come back to haunt me in ME3.
Then you must have layed mainly paragon. depending on the dialogue selections at the end of that mission, it is possible not to gain his loyalty, or as you did, convert him.The most disappointing choice I had to make was probably the Zaeed personal quest. When I was left with the choice to rescue the workers or not I had a really hard time to decide. I thought that rescuing the workers would maybe make Zaeed leave the group or in the least make him become disloyal. Being the good guy at heart I saved the workers, and lo and behold. Zaeed loves me??? What was that all about, yes it would have been okay if he stayed (he had been paid) but in no way should he have been loyal after that!
There are many variables. Anyone can do it, whether its their expertise or not is another matter. Also, even if you use one of the two 'best' suspects, if your team leader sucks they will still die. Many people think Zaeed is a good leadership choice....are they stupid, nieve or a bad judge of character. We are not all as intelligent as you.Next disappointment was the suicide mission. For me I really thought that no matter who I send into the tunnels to open the door dies. And you know what, it would have made the game much better if I had been faced with this hard decision. It’s a freaking suicide mission and nobody dies???
Agreed. But if your saying ME2 lacks this, then you issed a lot of the game.Possibly the hardest and emotionally biggest choice I ever had to do in a game was the decision who to leave behind on Virmire. I was stopped dead in my track when I got there. I did not want to make that decision. I really liked both characters, but I had to choose! (Would have been brilliant if I had a third option trying to save both and in the process loosing both!) It was heartbreaking, it was great storytelling, it gave the mission meaning and depth! Best moment in ME1 hands down!
So you think its out of character for people to change who they are after 2 years, especially when they thought you were dead, and they find out you work for an organisation hated throughout the galaxy?There was nothing like this in ME2. No hard choices, no real consequences (again, if you played ‘smart’) And worst of all, the hard decision you made in ME1 was reduced to a small dialogue were I pretty much got told to get lost. (And this from my LI in ME1! I had saved Kaidan’s life, we were lovers and all he tells me is to screw myself because it took me two years to come back from the frikking dead???)
Maybe she will, maybe she will help us in ME3....maybe, try not being so impatient?And last, (yes I know, wall of text tl;dr) I would have really liked to have some real impacts on the decisions I made in ME1. (No, short dialoges or eMails are not real impacts) I would have especially liked to have my decision to save the Rachni Queen come back and bite me in the ass. (Maybe she attacked a colony and now I have to gather some resources to help them… something like this) I really want to have some unforeseen consequences to potentially ‘good’ decisions I make. (Because that’s what happens in real life, you have good intentions and really mess things up with that)
It doesn’t have to be something big, just make me feel bad and have me do something small.
Well, my first play through was just over 48 hours....hardly short by anyones standards....Well, still loved the game, just think it could have been better (and should have been longer…), but awesome story never the less!
If you got this far, thanks for reading
Comments and ideas are always welcome!
Sorry to rabble on, but your points are your opinions only, mean nothing and can be slanted to whatever view someone wishes to take. Now if you have a real major gripe with the game, feel free to explain in full so we can discuss it, but lamely writing stuff that the majority (millions of gamers who are playing it right now) would disagree with it is well....
Modifié par Maviarab, 18 février 2010 - 03:37 .
#30
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:35
MutantSpleen
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Aisynia wrote...
You say that he "loves you" after you screw him regarding Vido, but I never got that vibe. Thing is, you need PRETTY HIGH paragon points to use the blue option there, and that blue option is the only way to keep his loyalty if you save the workers.
It doesn't have to be that high, any imported ME1 Paragon player can do it.
#31
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:38
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Probably that bug where requirements are higher under certain circumstances then.
It SHOULD be high, how bout that? At least 50% IMO.
It SHOULD be high, how bout that? At least 50% IMO.
#32
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:38
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MutantSpleen wrote...
Aisynia wrote...
You say that he "loves you" after you screw him regarding Vido, but I never got that vibe. Thing is, you need PRETTY HIGH paragon points to use the blue option there, and that blue option is the only way to keep his loyalty if you save the workers.
It doesn't have to be that high, any imported ME1 Paragon player can do it.
Ummm no they cant (tried it)....
Also, Shepherd is well know for being able to charm a nun into bed...he better than James Bond at getting people to 'see his way of thinking'....anyone who played ME1 should know this, so its hardly supprising is it? We can convert jack to a paragon with enough right dialogue choices.
Seems the op is more annoyed at things totaly irrelevent to his post, and the usual response is, if he thinks he can do better...then go for it, and be sure to let us know when its out so we can go and buy it
Modifié par Maviarab, 18 février 2010 - 03:41 .
#33
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:39
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MutantSpleen wrote...
XWAU_Forceflow wrote...
The most disappointing choice I had to make was probably the Zaeed personal quest. When I was left with the choice to rescue the workers or not I had a really hard time to decide. I thought that rescuing the workers would maybe make Zaeed leave the group or in the least make him become disloyal. Being the good guy at heart I saved the workers, and lo and behold. Zaeed loves me??? What was that all about, yes it would have been okay if he stayed (he had been paid) but in no way should he have been loyal after that!
This is when I stopped my Paragon play as I realized that the Paragon would never have to face any reprecussions for their choices. I can't believe they gave Zaeed's loyalty to you. There should have been an actual choice. Zaeed's loyalty vs. Saving the workers. Lo and behold the Paragon can get both.
The renegade ending to that mission is WAY more satisfying. Screw those factory workers, I want to watch Zaeed burn that m'fer alive. I did the Paragon way only once and from now on, even on my primarily paragon playthroughs, I always choose to go for Vido rather than save the workers.
#34
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:39
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Remember, this is the Empire Strikes Back of the series and most consequences will happen in the third game. Like say if you cheated on your L.I. in ME2, you'll probably confronted about that in ME3 or letting the Rachni live will probably end up in them helping against the Reapers. Just hope to god they don't try to have a prequel series about how Anderson discovered Shepard with an annoying racist stereotype Salarian following you around.
#35
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:41
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Well, not any big consequences anyways so far. Letting Elnora go free on Samara's recruitment mission was a consequence.MutantSpleen wrote...
As long as you pick the Paragon choice, everything is good. Paragons have no consequences for their actions.
Basically I feel the same way as you, but I was a mostly Renegade player so I basically just missed some extra content and saw that the Paragon actions have no consequences. Add to that I possibly screwed myself out of a bunch of allies to fight the Reapers (I hope they don't go that route, its rather predictable.)
#36
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:41
MutantSpleen
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Maviarab wrote...
MutantSpleen wrote...
Aisynia wrote...
You say that he "loves you" after you screw him regarding Vido, but I never got that vibe. Thing is, you need PRETTY HIGH paragon points to use the blue option there, and that blue option is the only way to keep his loyalty if you save the workers.
It doesn't have to be that high, any imported ME1 Paragon player can do it.
Ummm no they cant (tried it)....
Well it worked for my imported ME1 Paragon player. I did it right after Omega.
#37
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:43
FriendofGarrus
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I agree that this game lacked significant choices. I found it completely absurd that it was possible to get EVERYONE's loyalty while playing a strict paragon or renegade. There is NO WAY that Zaeed should have been loyal if you decided to save the workers over killing his nemesis. There should be some incentive to carefully consider decisions.
#38
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:48
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SurfaceBeneath wrote...
The renegade ending to that mission is WAY more satisfying. Screw those factory workers, I want to watch Zaeed burn that m'fer alive. I did the Paragon way only once and from now on, even on my primarily paragon playthroughs, I always choose to go for Vido rather than save the workers.
Oh I totally agree. My main character who is Renegade let them burn and that is a much better ending.
#39
Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:52
FriendofGarrus
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I also think an ideological system could have been implemented into the game. For example, if your renegade score passes a certain threshold certain characters become less loyal. Why would "paragon" characters like Jacob be loyal to a commander who kills mercs after they surrender? Perhaps this could have been implemented for only a few squadmates that have paragon or renegade personalities.
Others like Tali or Garrus could be loyal regardless of the commander's ideology due to their shared history. That would definitely make the choices much more interesting. In ME2 I felt like there was never a wrong choice because a high renegade or paragon score was a way out all the time. To me that is absurd.
Others like Tali or Garrus could be loyal regardless of the commander's ideology due to their shared history. That would definitely make the choices much more interesting. In ME2 I felt like there was never a wrong choice because a high renegade or paragon score was a way out all the time. To me that is absurd.
#40
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Posté 18 février 2010 - 03:59
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While I agree in principle to that....the whole 'loyalty' ideology falls down slightly. Those missions are there really to help better your odds in the suicide mission, they have nothing to do with 'ship or loyalty to shepherd.
Bottom line, they have been recruited for a mission, or paid to help, they are subordinates to Shepherd as he commands the whole mission (even Miranda has to defer to him despite being one of TiM's top employees)...so lyalty is irrelevent in that equation, they do as they are told, whether loyal to and or liking Shepherd.
But can see what you mean, and yes I agree more drastic responses from crew members based upon your actions would have been welcomed.
Maybe something they can implement into ME3?
Edit: To clarify, you would be suprised how many people in the forces have no loyalty or liking for their commanding officers, yet despite their actions, still stand by them. Very similar thing imo.
Bottom line, they have been recruited for a mission, or paid to help, they are subordinates to Shepherd as he commands the whole mission (even Miranda has to defer to him despite being one of TiM's top employees)...so lyalty is irrelevent in that equation, they do as they are told, whether loyal to and or liking Shepherd.
But can see what you mean, and yes I agree more drastic responses from crew members based upon your actions would have been welcomed.
Maybe something they can implement into ME3?
Edit: To clarify, you would be suprised how many people in the forces have no loyalty or liking for their commanding officers, yet despite their actions, still stand by them. Very similar thing imo.
Modifié par Maviarab, 18 février 2010 - 04:01 .
#41
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:02
MutantSpleen
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Yes any reaction form your teammates would be welcome. Dragon Age handled this really well. You could really tick off some companions to the point they would leave.
#42
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:08
FriendofGarrus
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These missions have everything to do with LOYALTY...hence the "Loyalty" status under their names on the select screen. I can understand some of them continuing the mission regardless of their feelings for Shepard but others should stand by their principles-especially if they have a far different moral system than the commander.Maviarab wrote...
While I agree in principle to that....the whole 'loyalty' ideology falls down slightly. Those missions are there really to help better your odds in the suicide mission, they have nothing to do with 'ship or loyalty to shepherd.
Bottom line, they have been recruited for a mission, or paid to help, they are subordinates to Shepherd as he commands the whole mission (even Miranda has to defer to him despite being one of TiM's top employees)...so lyalty is irrelevent in that equation, they do as they are told, whether loyal to and or liking Shepherd.
But can see what you mean, and yes I agree more drastic responses from crew members based upon your actions would have been welcomed.
Maybe something they can implement into ME3?
Edit: To clarify, you would be suprised how many people in the forces have no loyalty or liking for their commanding officers, yet despite their actions, still stand by them. Very similar thing imo.
Garrus should have also been pretty annoyed if stopped from killing Sidonis. I think the binary loyal/not loyal system is inadequate. There should be a sort of gauge from 0 to 100. If it falls below 20 they leave if it is above 80 they are loyal etc. with more than a single mission determining whether or not they are loyal.
#43
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:09
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I still have yet ti play Dragon Age. That definitely sounds like something they should implement in the next Mass Effect.MutantSpleen wrote...
Yes any reaction form your teammates would be welcome. Dragon Age handled this really well. You could really tick off some companions to the point they would leave.
#44
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Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:28
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It is better in DA I agree.
#45
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:42
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Your problem is you want everything to happen, and you want it to happen now. ME2 was two years after 1. Two years.
How much variation could you possibly expect Bioware to write in without turning Mass Effect 2 into another Duke Nukem Forever?
How much variation could you possibly expect Bioware to write in without turning Mass Effect 2 into another Duke Nukem Forever?
#46
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:44
XWAU_Forceflow
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Maviarab wrote...
Edit: To clarify, you would be suprised how many people in the forces have no loyalty or liking for their commanding officers, yet despite their actions, still stand by them. Very similar thing imo.
And I think you also agree that those forces will be less likely to go on a suicide mission and will most likely fight less well than the team that is truly loyal to their officers. Yes they wont desert, but will they actively jump in front of a bullet for the guy that just keeps pissing them off?
That for me is exactly the difference between a teammate staying and a teammate becoming loyal...
#47
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Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:47
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xwau..
Agreed
Which is why I said, the loyalty missions serve only to advance the story and to make your odds in the final mision better. They actually dont matter and are irrelevent to following Shepherd regardless of your choices.
Agreed
Which is why I said, the loyalty missions serve only to advance the story and to make your odds in the final mision better. They actually dont matter and are irrelevent to following Shepherd regardless of your choices.
#48
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:53
KainrycKarr
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XWAU_Forceflow wrote...
Maviarab wrote...
Edit: To clarify, you would be suprised how many people in the forces have no loyalty or liking for their commanding officers, yet despite their actions, still stand by them. Very similar thing imo.
And I think you also agree that those forces will be less likely to go on a suicide mission and will most likely fight less well than the team that is truly loyal to their officers. Yes they wont desert, but will they actively jump in front of a bullet for the guy that just keeps pissing them off?
That for me is exactly the difference between a teammate staying and a teammate becoming loyal...
Wrong. That's just hollywood stuff. You do what needs to be done, bottom line. Letting an officer get killed, or any member of your squad get killed, regardless of personal feelings, serves nothing in reality other than weakening your own survival and success rates, as well as those around you.
The whole loyalty thing works great in movies and games, but it's not how it actually works.
#49
Posté 18 février 2010 - 04:54
XWAU_Forceflow
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Sorry for the double post, but i wanted to seperate this from my earlier answer:
Well, my bad. I honestly thought a discussion forum was about voicing my opinion. I mean what else would I do? Write a mathematical thesis about how many possible choices there could have been in ME2?
As for the 'millions' of gamers who disagree, well I see a lot of folks who seem to agree with me. Sure, there are lot's who disagree, but somehow I don't think I am that far off the target here. And I did write that I did enjoy the game. All I wanted to state is that it could have been so much better and that I felt that some of the promises simply were not delivered.
Lastly, about the every returning: 'It's just ME2, wait for ME3 and it'll all be better'
I paid full price for ME1, I payed full price for ME2 and I will pay full price for ME3. Excuse me for wanting to get three full games out of that...
Overexagerating to get the point across! Yes I liked ME2 and no I do not regret spending my money. I just think it's a lame excuse to just hope everything will magically be better in ME3. (And especially if nobody ever criticises...)
Maviarab wrote...
Sorry to rabble on, but your points are your opinions only, mean nothing and can be slanted to whatever view someone wishes to take. Now if you have a real major gripe with the game, feel free to explain in full so we can discuss it, but lamely writing stuff that the majority (millions of gamers who are playing it right now) would disagree with it is well....
Well, my bad. I honestly thought a discussion forum was about voicing my opinion. I mean what else would I do? Write a mathematical thesis about how many possible choices there could have been in ME2?
As for the 'millions' of gamers who disagree, well I see a lot of folks who seem to agree with me. Sure, there are lot's who disagree, but somehow I don't think I am that far off the target here. And I did write that I did enjoy the game. All I wanted to state is that it could have been so much better and that I felt that some of the promises simply were not delivered.
Lastly, about the every returning: 'It's just ME2, wait for ME3 and it'll all be better'
I paid full price for ME1, I payed full price for ME2 and I will pay full price for ME3. Excuse me for wanting to get three full games out of that...
Overexagerating to get the point across! Yes I liked ME2 and no I do not regret spending my money. I just think it's a lame excuse to just hope everything will magically be better in ME3. (And especially if nobody ever criticises...)
#50
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 18 février 2010 - 05:00
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well...when its common knowledge that approx 10-15% of 'gamers' frequent a forum for said game (the majority really do not ever bother unless they have 'an issue' then yes, the majoirty must feel its fine
And yes discussions are great, what the internets and forums are for, but 'personal' gripes are different.
As for paying full price, so what? so did i, and have amassed well over 400 hours including both games so far, so great cheap entertainment imo....whats your point exactly?
Value of worth will always be a discussion point, you obviously got no where near my 48 hours if you felt is was 'short' so obviosuly my enjoyment of the game differed vastly from yours didnt it? If I did things that you missed, could not be beothered to do, read codex entries, watched all cut scenes etc etc, then you missed out.
A game like this is a long as you want it to be (to an extent), ive seen posts saying they finished it in 20 hours and moaning, I eman wtf...what didnt they do to make the game half the size it was for me?
Edit:...CoD games are short in comparison, but they aim more for the MP market, but honestly, almost 50 hours for one run through in a game Ill play at least 8-10 times with diff characters and diff scenario's is FAR from being a short game.
And yes discussions are great, what the internets and forums are for, but 'personal' gripes are different.
As for paying full price, so what? so did i, and have amassed well over 400 hours including both games so far, so great cheap entertainment imo....whats your point exactly?
Value of worth will always be a discussion point, you obviously got no where near my 48 hours if you felt is was 'short' so obviosuly my enjoyment of the game differed vastly from yours didnt it? If I did things that you missed, could not be beothered to do, read codex entries, watched all cut scenes etc etc, then you missed out.
A game like this is a long as you want it to be (to an extent), ive seen posts saying they finished it in 20 hours and moaning, I eman wtf...what didnt they do to make the game half the size it was for me?
Edit:...CoD games are short in comparison, but they aim more for the MP market, but honestly, almost 50 hours for one run through in a game Ill play at least 8-10 times with diff characters and diff scenario's is FAR from being a short game.
Modifié par Maviarab, 18 février 2010 - 05:02 .
