613 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
Happy addition ruined it because of the theme of the game. One of the biggest themes seemed to be sacrifice, hope and redemption.
Sora and Riku had sacrificed their freedom for the world of light and Riku had redeemed himself. Then all of a sudden: "NM! You get a get out of jail free card!" 
Ick. I know they suffered up to that point but gah. That just irritated the hell out of me for some reason.

Eh, I didn't see that as any less of a sacrifice. It was still done. It's just that a reward was given after. I was fine with that. I like for endings to be happy in some way, though the sad ones are often just as poignant.

[casedawgz]

damage1900 wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
I wish there would be RPGs that don't make you save jack. I say this about all games, not just Western or Eastern. They all fall into the same issues.

The Witcher is pretty good in this respect. Worth a play, and I think it's easily as good as DAO.

When the Witcher told me, five minutes after I leveled and put my points into combat skills, that I needed alchemy skill to advance the plot, I put it down and never picked it back up.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Happy addition ruined it because of the theme of the game. One of the biggest themes seemed to be sacrifice, hope and redemption.
Sora and Riku had sacrificed their freedom for the world of light and Riku had redeemed himself. Then all of a sudden: "NM! You get a get out of jail free card!" 
Ick. I know they suffered up to that point but gah. That just irritated the hell out of me for some reason.

Eh, I didn't see that as any less of a sacrifice. It was still done. It's just that a reward was given after. I was fine with that. I like for endings to be happy in some way, though the sad ones are often just as poignant.

Meh I like sadder endings. (Probably why US is my favorite DA ending). And yeah I was bitter about Roxas and Axel.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Linearity is overly criticised imo, I can name a few games that could have used some linearity instead of open world gameplay. *cough* Farcry 2 *cough*

Also I doubt some western reviewer's judgment. It could be they are displaying entertainment media in west is superior syndrome. I don't know. I never played JRPG's and from the look of it, I am sure I will hate the genre. I am sure Other will have the opposite view.

Also it seems many of you here are saying JRPG's suck because, well they don't appeal to the western sensibilities. Why should they ? I can understand if Square is looking out for their Japanese customers first. You can look at this game from a western perspective, but to ask them to add western elements so that it will become popular in U.S. or other western countries, I don't think is good. JRPG's need to be unique, they need to stand out. And taking the Japanese out of JRPG's is going to ruin it.

Modifié par fairandbalancedfan, 18 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[MerinTB]

I understand this is a Bioware board, and that many of the people here are playing these kinds of CRPGs and not the JRPGs like FF.
But I think that prejudice (preference?) is causing people to be selective and jump the gun.

I've played three FF's all the way through (FF 3/6, FF 7 and FF Tactics Advance) and barely started two others (FF 8 and FF Tactics) since I've never owned a PS (3 was SNES, 7 was PC, Advance was GBA.)  But I've played many, many CRPGs, going all the way back to Ultima 1 (or Quest for the Ring, if you like.)  So I'm not coming into this argument with any particular bias one way or the other.   Just getting that out of the way.

There's the story going around about FF XIII's director, Motomu Toriyam, responding to some "Western" reviews of the game.  And that's caused an explosion in this thread at least of many jeering "Game sucks, of course!  Even the Japanese audience hates it!"

Uhm - where's that evidence?  This thread actually succeeded in scaring me, and I started digging looking for the "bad" reviews.
THIS is what I found:

http://www.talkxbox....rticle3691.html : Not a review, just one of MANY articles talking about Motomu Toriyam's comments (this is just one of many sites writing a blurb about this, but the negativity at the end of the "article" is very much colored by the writer's biases)
http://www.metacriti.../finalfantasy13 : this is the platform it will be on in the states, and the one I'll be playing it on.  Oh, look, no reviews as I type this.
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1053279p1.html : "First Final Fantasy XIII Review Score Not So Perfect" the title reads.  Yeah, it got a 39 out of 40.
http://www.computera...229112&site=cvg : This one reads "Final Fantasy XIII review scores big!" but it is referencing the same 39 out of 40 review.  Hmm.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1068591p1.html : "Final Fantasy XIII: 'Now I'm Excited' "  Guy played the game a little and wants more.
http://www.metacriti...al Fantasy XIII : Currently at an 86 with a user score of 8.4.  DAO on the PS3 has an 87 with a user score of 7.5 and on the 360 it's 86 with a user score of 7.3.

Overall, I've looked.  Now I've not spent hours, so I'm quite willing to accept I missed the negative reviews.  But the worst I found was Play UK giving it a 79 and saying "However, some aspects of the game and its battle system are so good that
it's still engaging and fun to play...most of the time."  Again, comparitively, DAO got as it's 3 lowest scores (on the PS3) a 70, a 63, and a 50 and the 360 version got a 74, a 60 and a 50.  FF XIII doesn't have nearly as many reviews yet, but it's lowest three are 85. 81, 79.

I'm not bashing DAO here.  I love DAO, it is one of my favorite CRPGs ever.
I'm not trying to hype FF XIII - I expect to like it, but I don't expect to put it in my top 20 CRPGs even.

But a little perspective, some facts, and less hyperbolic posteuring might lead to a more reasoned discussion.

Of course, looking at the thread title, what should I expect?

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 février 2010 - 03:29 .

[xUnbreakable Devotionx]

Slygar wrote...

It fails because old fans of Final Fantasy realize the series is nothing like it used to be, and is simply not engaging anymore.

Agreed... I'd say FFVI through FFIX are the greatest works of the franchise, masterpieces that will last for generations.

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
Uhm - where's that evidence?  This thread actually succeeded in scaring me, and I started digging looking for the "bad" reviews.
THIS is what I found:

http://www.talkxbox....rticle3691.html : Not a review, just one of MANY articles talking about Motomu Toriyam's comments (this is just one of many sites writing a blurb about this, but the negativity at the end of the "article" is very much colored by the writer's biases)
http://www.metacriti.../finalfantasy13 : this is the platform it will be on in the states, and the one I'll be playing it on.  Oh, look, no reviews as I type this.
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1053279p1.html : "First Final Fantasy XIII Review Score Not So Perfect" the title reads.  Yeah, it got a 39 out of 40.
http://www.computera...229112&site=cvg : This one reads "Final Fantasy XIII review scores big!" but it is referencing the same 39 out of 40 review.  Hmm.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1068591p1.html : "Final Fantasy XIII: 'Now I'm Excited' "  Guy played the game a little and wants more.
http://www.metacriti...al Fantasy XIII : Currently at an 86 with a user score of 8.4.  DAO on the PS3 has an 87 with a user score of 7.5 and on the 360 it's 86 with a user score of 7.3

*facepalm* 
Serves me right for taking them serious for even a second.

[Unit-Alpha]

Ah, Bioware and Bethseda rule...

[MightySword]

Double Post due to Massive Forum Failure

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 03:51 .

[MightySword]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Also it seems many of you here are saying JRPG's suck because, well they don't appeal to the western sensibilities. Why should they ? I can understand if Square is looking out for their Japanese customers first. You can look at this
game from a western perspective, but to ask them to add western elements so that it will become popular in U.S. or other western countries, I don't think is good. JRPG's need to be unique, they need to stand out. And taking the Japanese out of JRPG's is going to ruin it.

Never thought hearing that coming from you. Ok I'll give you the seal of approval to continue your tentacle jokes.


Since the amount of fayboynism seems to have died down in this thread, I think I can safely offer my thought without burning.


- First, I'm a JRPG addict and anyone who knows me on this forum can vow for as much, and I think I cover about 80%-90% of JRPG tittles each year. To the people who claim that JRPG have been stagnant and have not progressed for the past decay, you're either badly misinformed, or your eyesight have never set beyond a couple of iconic series. And this's applied to either a normal player or even industry figures. In term of pure variety, I dare say JRPG have WRPG beaten on several scale, and JRPG have covered a lot of ground in term of gameplay mechanic or battle system. And of course, when I say that series like Final Fantasy does not make good example. But then Final Fantasy is a famous JRPG, but it's not the "only" JRPG. An iconic series it may be, but by no mean a representative of JRPG.



- Second, I'm not happy with the current state of JRPG. I had bought "all" JRPG released on PS3/Xbox360, and I keep "zero" in my procession, except Valkyrie Chronicle if you count it as a JRPG. And I do agree that JRPG is losing its charm. However I disagree on the basic it was not due to lack of progression of the genre, on the contrary I contributed much of the declining on a certain type of progression. JRPG in it original form, I believe was something created and meant for the Japanese market and mentality, and some players around the world happens to find it intriguing, kinda like how you or your friends might be interested in an authentic foreign cousin. In the recent years though, many JRPG makers, especially among traditional powerhouse like Square-Enix, there are attempts to "Westernize" the JRPG genre, making JRPG appeal more to mainstream Western audience. And Final Fantasy is actually a pretty good example for this trend. No, I'm prepared to defend the series on the ground that it has made a lot of progress but I would also attack on the ground it's making progress in a wrong direction. I just prefer when I criticize something, it should be for a valid (not good or bad) reason.


- I think the angle you see people ranting over Final Fantasy XIII is really no different then the kind of rant you see people rant about Mass Effect over Bioware's traditional release, or even more recently, how people rant Mass Effect 2 had strayed even further away from the RPG root comparing to the first game. It might have different basic, but pretty much the same sentiment. I'm pretty sure FFXIII is a quality game package just like ME2 is a good game in its own right, to the old fans however, it might be too far off the mark. I enjoyed ME2 however, and I have to reserves my judgment until I played it, I won't be surprised however no matter what it turns out.


- Third, to echo the person that I quoted and re-emphasize what I have been saying. The charm of JRPG came from the "J" in JRPG. Different stroke for different folks, however the most important thing that should remain is diversity, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try compare, or even worse, trying to turn JRPG into WRPG. What is the point of playing a JRPG when you don't see the J anymore? A lot of people don't like anime, but I'm not sure whether putting anime and Walt Disney under the same umbrella is a pretty picture.



- The last point I want to say and it's kinda related to the general attitude (the kind that got the last thread locked). WRPG certainly is enjoying some kind of renaissance lately with a lot of good hits. I think it's only recently that I see people don't have to rely on 10 years old tittles to defend WRPG. And to the hardcore fan I guess that serves like a good ego boots, so I certainly don't blame people getting too excited ... to a degree. It's like after spending a long period of hearing your roommate make out with his girlfriend while you stuck under the cold blanket all by yourself, you finally get a girlfriend while your roommate got dumped, kinda want you to scream "What about now, huh?" For me though, I'm not holding my loyalty for any branch or genre, I seemly want to play and enjoy what the best the market has to offer. I don't think you have to hate a genre in order to enjoy the other more (and frankly it's one of the mentalities I think sad that it exists). Plus, I tend to think I'm the one who decides what I want. So when I buy a game, I think it's a game that like simply happen to be a RPG, I didn't buy it because it is a RPG.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 03:58 .

[Suron]

Jigero wrote...

FF12 got low reviews from who in the west? Last time I checked FF12 had nothing but stellar reviews from just about ever major reviewer, The only people who didn't like FF12 where the rabid fanboy mob, who thinks every thing before and after 7 sucks and just want 900 iterations of Cloud.

I didn't care for FFXII...so I'd of been one of the low reviews in the west...

however I also think FFVII was good...esp at the time it came out...but it's the most over-rated FF of them all...and I can't stand cloud..especially advent children...

so..so much for your theory

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Uhm - where's that evidence?  This thread actually succeeded in scaring me, and I started digging looking for the "bad" reviews.
THIS is what I found:

http://www.talkxbox....rticle3691.html : Not a review, just one of MANY articles talking about Motomu Toriyam's comments (this is just one of many sites writing a blurb about this, but the negativity at the end of the "article" is very much colored by the writer's biases)
http://www.metacriti.../finalfantasy13 : this is the platform it will be on in the states, and the one I'll be playing it on.  Oh, look, no reviews as I type this.
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1053279p1.html : "First Final Fantasy XIII Review Score Not So Perfect" the title reads.  Yeah, it got a 39 out of 40.
http://www.computera...229112&site=cvg : This one reads "Final Fantasy XIII review scores big!" but it is referencing the same 39 out of 40 review.  Hmm.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1068591p1.html : "Final Fantasy XIII: 'Now I'm Excited' "  Guy played the game a little and wants more.
http://www.metacriti...al Fantasy XIII : Currently at an 86 with a user score of 8.4.  DAO on the PS3 has an 87 with a user score of 7.5 and on the 360 it's 86 with a user score of 7.3

*facepalm* 
Serves me right for taking them serious for even a second.

I hesitated posting that because I feel like a goof for getting scared by a thread on a forum.

Seriously.

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Uhm - where's that evidence?  This thread actually succeeded in scaring me, and I started digging looking for the "bad" reviews.
THIS is what I found:

http://www.talkxbox....rticle3691.html : Not a review, just one of MANY articles talking about Motomu Toriyam's comments (this is just one of many sites writing a blurb about this, but the negativity at the end of the "article" is very much colored by the writer's biases)
http://www.metacriti.../finalfantasy13 : this is the platform it will be on in the states, and the one I'll be playing it on.  Oh, look, no reviews as I type this.
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1053279p1.html : "First Final Fantasy XIII Review Score Not So Perfect" the title reads.  Yeah, it got a 39 out of 40.
http://www.computera...229112&site=cvg : This one reads "Final Fantasy XIII review scores big!" but it is referencing the same 39 out of 40 review.  Hmm.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1068591p1.html : "Final Fantasy XIII: 'Now I'm Excited' "  Guy played the game a little and wants more.
http://www.metacriti...al Fantasy XIII : Currently at an 86 with a user score of 8.4.  DAO on the PS3 has an 87 with a user score of 7.5 and on the 360 it's 86 with a user score of 7.3

*facepalm* 
Serves me right for taking them serious for even a second.

I hesitated posting that because I feel like a goof for getting scared by a thread on a forum.
Seriously.

Um, for clarity by "them" I meant some of those that started this thread and proliferated a number of the ideas in it. I should have known to go and look up the reviews before I started to entertain the notion that they might be right about FFXIII doing badly.

[fairandbalancedfan]

[quote]the_one_54321 wrote...
Serves me right for taking them serious for even a second. [/quote]
I hesitated posting that because I feel like a goof for getting scared by a thread on a forum.
Seriously.[/quote]
Um, for clarity by "them" I meant some of those that started this thread and proliferated a number of the ideas in it. I should have known to go and look up the reviews before I started to entertain the notion that they might be right about FFXIII doing badly.

[/quote]

To be honest, I doubted them the minute they posted it. I think a large portion of the hate here can be attributed simply to Western Jingoism. The belief that western values are good for everybody and some of the posters here just openly advocated the Japanese needing to adopt western ways of gaming. As I said before, if the Japanese devs listened to these folks, JRPG's will stop being unique. If JRPG's are going to change, it should be because the Japanese devs or people want it to change. And they can change, lokk at Demon's Soul.

Asking a different culture's entertainment medium change to suit western audiences is a bit stupid IMO. Same goes the other way around.

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Uhm - where's that evidence?  This thread actually succeeded in scaring me, and I started digging looking for the "bad" reviews.
THIS is what I found:

http://www.talkxbox....rticle3691.html : Not a review, just one of MANY articles talking about Motomu Toriyam's comments (this is just one of many sites writing a blurb about this, but the negativity at the end of the "article" is very much colored by the writer's biases)
http://www.metacriti.../finalfantasy13 : this is the platform it will be on in the states, and the one I'll be playing it on.  Oh, look, no reviews as I type this.
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1053279p1.html : "First Final Fantasy XIII Review Score Not So Perfect" the title reads.  Yeah, it got a 39 out of 40.
http://www.computera...229112&site=cvg : This one reads "Final Fantasy XIII review scores big!" but it is referencing the same 39 out of 40 review.  Hmm.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1068591p1.html : "Final Fantasy XIII: 'Now I'm Excited' "  Guy played the game a little and wants more.
http://www.metacriti...al Fantasy XIII : Currently at an 86 with a user score of 8.4.  DAO on the PS3 has an 87 with a user score of 7.5 and on the 360 it's 86 with a user score of 7.3

*facepalm* 
Serves me right for taking them serious for even a second.

I hesitated posting that because I feel like a goof for getting scared by a thread on a forum.
Seriously.

Um, for clarity by "them" I meant some of those that started this thread and proliferated a number of the ideas in it. I should have known to go and look up the reviews before I started to entertain the notion that they might be right about FFXIII doing badly.

Yes, I do believe we are talking about the same thing.
I feel foolish for letting some random person starting a thread that basically reads "My team rocks, the other sucks, everyone agrees even the other team's fans this time" and a few people playing yes-men to the general concept made me feel "oh, maybe the other team DOES suck - who needs empirical evidence?"
We are on the same page, don't understand the confusion.  Unless I'm confused?

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
We are on the same page, don't understand the confusion.  Unless I'm confused?

You're not confused. We're on the same page. Go FF!

[vhatever]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

To be honest, I doubted them the minute they posted it. I think a large portion of the hate here can be attributed simply to Western Jingoism. The belief that western values are good for everybody and some of the posters here just openly advocated the Japanese needing to adopt western ways of gaming. As I said before, if the Japanese devs listened to these folks, JRPG's will stop being unique. If JRPG's are going to change, it should be because the Japanese devs or people want it to change. And they can change, lokk at Demon's Soul.

Asking a different culture's entertainment medium change to suit western audiences is a bit stupid IMO. Same goes the other way around.

Umm, you mean east Asian jingoism?

Think so. Since JRPGs have done nothing but copy American game companies for 25-30 years now, then rehash the same basic plot over and over with the same 1980's linear, formulaic story.

Modifié par vhatever, 18 février 2010 - 04:57 .

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
Think so. Since JRPGs have done nothing but copy American game companies for 25-30 years now, then rehash the same basic plot over and over with the same 1980's linear, formulaic story.

In all honesty, that's crap.
Just about everything that a western game has done that was great, a JRPG has done first at some point.

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Think so. Since JRPGs have done nothing but copy American game companies for 25-30 years now, then rehash the same basic plot over and over with the same 1980's linear, formulaic story.

In all honesty, that's crap.
Just about everything that a western game has done that was great, a JRPG has done first at some point.

ROFLMAO. Pretty much everything JRPGs ever did was done before there even were "JRPGs". I think you are too young an/or too ignorant to know about such things, however. Since you even go as far as to say"everything", shouldn't be too hard to name some examples.

Modifié par vhatever, 18 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
ROFLMAO. Pretty much everything JRPGs ever did was done before there even were "JRPGs". I think you are too young an/or too ignorant to know about such things, however.

I played the first Final Fantasy when it was out on Nintendo. Jack [donkey].

Make a list of inovative features, and then try and find which game they were first used on. See what games turn up.

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
ROFLMAO. Pretty much everything JRPGs ever did was done before there even were "JRPGs". I think you are too young an/or too ignorant to know about such things, however.

I played the first Final Fantasy when it was out on Nintendo. Jack [donkey].

Make a list of inovative features, and then try and find which game they were first used on. See what games turn up.

I come up with names like Ultima, Bard's tale, Akalbeth, and Wizardry.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
I come up with names like Ultima, Bard's tale, Akalbeth, and Wizardry.

$20 says you're either lying, or just making mistaken assumptions and not realizing it.

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
I come up with names like Ultima, Bard's tale, Akalbeth, and Wizardry.

$20 says you're either lying, or just making mistaken assumptions and not realizing it.

Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

Modifié par vhatever, 18 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
Does showing teenaged and younger girl's patnies fall somehwere on there?

And with that comment I'm thinking there's probably just no point in paying attention to you anymore. <_<

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Does showing teenaged and younger girl's patnies fall somehwere on there?

And with that comment I'm thinking there's probably just no point in paying attention to you anymore. <_<

Ahh, shutting up as opposed to putting up. Good idea, since it was your only option.