613 réponses à ce sujet

[SpideyKnight]

vhatever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
I come up with names like Ultima, Bard's tale, Akalbeth, and Wizardry.

$20 says you're either lying, or just making mistaken assumptions and not realizing it.

Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

Shouldn't it?


Ok, ok, my bad, my bad.  Young adult though?  Gotta give me that one.

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
I come up with names like Ultima, Bard's tale, Akalbeth, and Wizardry.

$20 says you're either lying, or just making mistaken assumptions and not realizing it.

*ahem*

To balance things -

like animation, horror movies, televisions, cars, capitalism, electronics, game consoles, video games, and even CRPG's

The USA invented (or created a very successful niche inside of) something, and the Japanese saw, emulated, and improved on.

Now with some things you could argue whether the USA has taken the lead again (game consoles, maybe?  CRPGs?  Pixar? Apple? pick your poison)
but like Disney to anime
like Ford to Toyota
like GE to Sony

we went from Ultima and Wizardry to Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

Again, this isn't to argue that "Western" CRPGs haven't had a renaissance (thanks largely to Black Isle who passed the torch to Bioware and Bethesda) -
or that maybe JRPGs are stuck in a rut (seriously, if "Western" CRPGs still used the Phantasie style of combat that most JRPG's do (just with better animations), there'd probably be no argument here at all)

but before Black Isle and Bioware were putting "story" into games,
JRPGs were the king of indepth characterization and story.  Final Fantasy is arguably the king.

JRPG's, however, were born from Ultima and Wizardry.  Almost exclusively. 

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 février 2010 - 06:14 .

[Zanallen]

November Cousland wrote...

So true.<3

On another note, if there wasn't a troll under the bridge, would walking to Grandma's be this exciting?

You're mixing your fairy tales.

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...

(thanks largely to Black Isle who passed the torch to Bioware and Bethesda) 

How do you figure that? It's not like Black Isle designed BG1.

[L33tuberpwner]

I miss the Square of yesteryear

[agentofatlas7]

L33tuberpwner wrote...

I miss the Square of yesteryear

Me too man. RPGs made by squaresoft (particularly the psone ones) were my favorite.

Game like FFtactics, Vagrant Story, heck even Brave Fencer Musashi are better than most games today (yes games not just RPGs).

[MightySword]

vhatever wrote...
Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

Well, since you seem to already established a "Teenaged and Younger girl's panties" mentality, somehow I think whatever I gonna say, valid or invalid will be dismissed anyway. But ... as a sight of good will I will entertain your request, plus someone else is asking a favor so here goes nothing.  Hope you can at least look at them objectively ... if not ... well.


- Battle Mechanism:

+ classical TTB Gauge system: employed by a lot of JRPG from since the beginning of time, still in use right now (like Lost Odyssey), also the system that the FF series uses up until FFX.

+ Free movement turn base system: FFXII and from my understanding FFXIII uses this, although the best example for this system would be Grandia 3. A turn base system but allows concurent actions.

+ True real time system: JRPG equivalent of Western action RPG. My first exposure to it was Star Ocean 3, Star Ocean 4 also uses it, as well as most Level 5 games like Rogue Galaxy.

+ Psudo Real Time/Turn base system: ever heard of Valkyria Chronicle? The game is touted by pretty much all Western Review outlet (Gamespot, IGN ...etc...) as having a revolutionized system, some even went as far as claiming the system is like breathing a new life into a stagnant genre (their words, not mine). Now you might argue that Valkyria Chronicle is a SRPG, the fact is that there are other JRPG that employs the same system. In fact, the system of Valkyria Chronicle is originated from the Sakura Taisen series. And Sakura Taisen is like ... "the" JRPG in Japan. (And at this point Sakura Taisen is probably a lot more JRPGish than say ... Final Fantasy). Problem is, it never got a game outside of Japan. Gonna change next month though, NISAmerica is bringing one over for the Wii and PS2. Is that qualified as innovative features in your book?

+ Recently some WRPGs have trying to tout the "Cinematic gaming experience", and I think it successes to a decree. But have you seen a RPG that intergrate cinematic into the gameplay? Resonance of Fate. And yes that's how the battles looks like in game, I played the Demo myself. And if you can't believe me ... well the game coming out next month on the 16.

+ And really, there are a lot other mechanics in which the variation can range from big to small. Some game has an alternate mode like fighting between character and mech (Xenogears, Xenosaga, Bumpy Trot, Eureka 7 ...etc...), some even combine with a little RTS to spice things up (like Suikoden 5), some games have unique derivative of one of the core system (like Shadow Heart or Shin Megami Taisen)


Overall Gameplay:

- Give me a WRPG that has the most elaborated item creation feature? Some JRPG can have them beaten by a short shot (eh ... is that the corret word used, just made that up). The easiest example probably the Star Ocean series with its mind busting number of items. And even that system I think pale comparing to the one found in Rogue Galaxy, in which each item creation is also like a puzzle. They're elaborated, and in some way even elegant. It's not only about what you can make at the end, but also having fun making them. At least, they're not just gimmick.

- Side games: ever play a RPG that let you "construct" a town and build it up, populate it and then see the villagers come and prosper (or not)? And I mean "construct", as in you actually moving and put the structure down like a Sim game, not through dialogue command like "here's the gold now go build that tower" like NWN2 or Elderscrolls. Well, Dark Cloud series let you do that. I also see you mentioned Bard Tale, JRPG has something similar to that interm of side game. In Bumby Trot (or Steambot Chronicle in English for some absurd reason), you can earn money by assembling a band and perform in a cafe lobby (or a train station) to earn money. And again, the thing I like about JRPG is that their stuffs tend to be "elaborated" rather than just a thrown in as in the case of most WRPG. In Bumby Trot you have real song written for the game, different instruments you can play, and the mini game itself is like a simple version of Guitar Heroes (btw, Bumby Trot came way before Guitar Heroes).


- Party recruiting and development: well, you have the Suikoden series that let you recruit and absurd amount of 108 characters, it also has silent protagonists who is not an emo or involved in any kind of romantic relationship, or something like or Valkyrie Profile. And some JRPG is more or less a Dating Game at the same time so some of them are not exactly linear in the development department: Persona series, or Ar Tonelico, ...etc...  Some of these games even have parts of the game altered depending on the characters.


Story Telling: ah yes, the usual stereotype it's a blond emo teen with spiky hair in ridiculous clothe saving the world and maybe snatching a cute pinky princess with a personality that can make even a saint look like a commoner. Heh, don't blame people on the stereotype though, after all I can name from the top of my head at least 5 tittles (recently released or earlier, your pick) that perfectly match that stereotype. But you know ... at the same time I think also just from the top of my head I can also name just that many JRPGs that don't match that description at all.

- Shin Megami Taisen: you want a mind-raped story with heavy characters and absolutely no emo-nonsense, this series is your pick.
- Xenosaga: you want a story that's involved in more long term character relationships, and I mean stuff like brotherhood, Children-Parents, Sibling, Gods, not just that cheesy lovey dovey thing everyone has a stereotype with ? This is a good candidate.
- Shadow Heart 1&2: you want a story that is "purely" character driven? This is the Witcher in JRPG style.
- Valkyria Profile: you want a story that is ... not exactly like any other? This is one.
- Persona 3&4: saving the world is just a job, you have to go to school, get good grade, work on part time job for money, and work hard on your girlfriend. No, not saving them from evil overlord but by talking and taking them to a date ... you know like the kind of things normal people do (nothing dramatic) ... yep, JRPG offers that kind of thing too.



Now, a closing comment here would be a disclaimer what I posted is not for the shake of praising JRPG or bashing WRPG (refer to my other posts if you have doubt). I'm merely stating these as some kind of material for people to look at. I don't present them to argue that they are good or they are bad, but to argue that they are "there". In fact, some of the examples I used is actually on my black list (not a big fan of Level 5, and Star Ocean 4 made me almost vomit). But like I said, if you gonna hate something, hate it for the right reason. And JRPG is just one of those kind of things that usually suffer heavily under stereotype, and I just seek to set people vision a little beyond some of the mainstream series. This post is meant to be informative, that's all. Whether the things exists is good or bad is another topic.

And like I said, you don't need to hate something in order to affirm your love for other things, at least I don't feel the need to ... yet

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 08:16 .

[Mordaedil]

[moonmythology]

I found that article really interesting. While I cannot really judge FF13 yet, find this quote realy interesting: 'When you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like [...] becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom.' I agree that Bioware has proven this wrong, but his point about exploration I believe is spot on about most Western RPGs. It tends to be about exploration and finding different stories in these explorations. It makes me think: did this viewpoint come from a western colonial point of view--this fantasy of making a world your own?

In FF games, I have observed that one has a predetermined main character: one cannot really customize one's gender, background or looks. One cannot romance NPCs in Bioware fashion, although I love the romances between Squall and Rinoa, Tidus-Yuna, etc. What do these predetermined characters indicate about Asian fantasy I wonder? What type of immersion is the player being subjected to?

I am from asia originally so I love thinking about cultural issues like this. Just some stuff to think about.

Modifié par moonmythology, 18 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[Taiko Roshi]

moonmythology wrote...

I found that article really interesting. While I cannot really judge FF13 yet, find this quote realy interesting: 'When you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like [...] becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom.' I agree that Bioware has proved this wrong, but his point about exploration I believe is spot on about Western RPGs. It tends to be about exploration and finding different stories in these explorations. It makes me think: did viewpoint come from a western colonial point of view--this fantasy of making a world your own?

In FF games, I have observed that one has a predetermined main character: one cannot really customize one's gender, background or looks. One cannot romance NPCs in Bioware fashion, although I love the romances between Squall and Rinoa, Tidus-Yuna, etc. What do these predetermined characters indicate about Asian fantasy I wonder? What type of immersion is the player being subjected to?

I am from asia originally so I love thinking about cultural issues like this. Just some stuff to think about.

I'm a little confused about ME1 or 2 dumping me in a "big open world". Farcry, FO 3, Oblivian etc they are big open worlds or sandboxes. ME1 and 2 are far from being "big open worlds", they are very small and linear. ME 2 is one of the most linear games I have ever played with exceptionally tiny little linear maps. They are so small in fact that you do not even need a mini-map to navigate. Or am I misinterpreting what this guy is meaning by "big open world"?

[Ryzaki]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

moonmythology wrote...

I found that article really interesting. While I cannot really judge FF13 yet, find this quote realy interesting: 'When you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like [...] becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom.' I agree that Bioware has proved this wrong, but his point about exploration I believe is spot on about Western RPGs. It tends to be about exploration and finding different stories in these explorations. It makes me think: did viewpoint come from a western colonial point of view--this fantasy of making a world your own?

In FF games, I have observed that one has a predetermined main character: one cannot really customize one's gender, background or looks. One cannot romance NPCs in Bioware fashion, although I love the romances between Squall and Rinoa, Tidus-Yuna, etc. What do these predetermined characters indicate about Asian fantasy I wonder? What type of immersion is the player being subjected to?

I am from asia originally so I love thinking about cultural issues like this. Just some stuff to think about.

I'm a little confused about ME1 or 2 dumping me in a "big open world". Farcry, FO 3, Oblivian etc they are big open worlds or sandboxes. ME1 and 2 are far from being "big open worlds", they are very small and linear. ME 2 is one of the most linear games I have ever played with exceptionally tiny little linear maps. They are so small in fact that you do not even need a mini-map to navigate. Or am I misinterpreting what this guy is meaning by "big open world"?

^BioWare is the exception in this case not the rule.

[Mordaedil]

Ohthankgoodnessreasonablepeople.



Pretty much. I think Toriyama was talking more about the other mainstream developers, since Final Fantasy has become pretty much the mainstream representative for JRPG's, though obviously, not every developers make the same games.



In that same avenue, Bioware is a western developer with actually more traits borrowed from eastern traditions than most other developers.

[Borschtbeet]

I hear a lot of people talk about how great Lost Odyssey's plot was. It really wasn't. The memories you can acquire are well written and interesting but the actual main plot is about as cookie cutter as you can get.

Just another fight the evil empire cliche.

[Borschtbeet]

"Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?"



If you ask me, those are the only things that make JRPGs worth playing.

[JKoopman]

Saying that JRPGs don't innovate is pretty bass-ackwards. If anything, my main fault with JRPGs is that they innovate too much. I hate having to learn some brand-new, incredibly complex and convoluted battle/skill upgrade/item creation system in every new JRPG I purchase. It can take hours to learn the finer points of each new system and sometimes, as in the case of Magna Carta, it's just completely fathomless to me and prevents me from enjoying it.

With WRPGs, it's a fairly simple and mundane affair. Pick up sword/gun - click on/point at enemy - press attack button - assign points as you level. They really haven't strayed from that formula nor the traditional D&D character sheet since their inception.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 février 2010 - 03:36 .

[Vaeliorin]

coinop25 wrote...
I would rather replay...Fallout games a thousand more times than bother with turn-based combat

I honestly can't be the only one who found this ridiculously funny in it's sheer cluelessness.

[addiction21]

Vaeliorin wrote...

coinop25 wrote...
I would rather replay...Fallout games a thousand more times than bother with turn-based combat

I honestly can't be the only one who found this ridiculously funny in it's sheer cluelessness.

Your not... just wow some people.

[the_one_54321]

Borschtbeet wrote...
Just another fight the evil empire cliche.

Oh, I didn't realize BioWare made Lost Odyssey. 

[MerinTB]

AlanC9 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

(thanks largely to Black Isle who passed the torch to Bioware and Bethesda) 

How do you figure that? It's not like Black Isle designed BG1.

Let's first get historical:

Bethesda had Arena, Daggerfall and a few other games (Battlespire I believe) out before BG1 - but it's arguably Morrowind that REALLY put them on the map (though much of the innovation was in Daggerfall, Daggerfall's sheer repetition and bugginess kept it from being "great")

Just for reference, I'll also toss in that Diablo was in 1996, and that Interplay as a company is probably responsible more than any other company for the direction the CRPG's took (Bard's Tale to Baldur's Gate, if you will)

Black Isle Studios did Fallout (1997) and Fallout 2 (1998), both of which are by most standards far superior (in advancing western CRPGs if nothing else) to Baldur's Gate (which is using D&D rule set and Forgotten Realms material where Fallout, at worst, is cribbing from Wasteland a bit.)  Baldur's Gate came out in 1998, so it was, at best, contemporary with Fallout 2.  Fallout's, however, didn't use the Infinity Engine but BG obviously borrowed many concepts from the Fallout games.
Black Isle also produced all the BG titles, so it has a hand in those as well.
And then BI went on to make Planescape: Torment and both Icewind Dales.

Bioware, newbie to CRPGs when the made Baldur's Gate, did make a bit splash and quickly found their legs.  And they made the Infinity Engine.  By the time of BG 2 they had arguably taken the crown from Black Isle (BG 2 had far deeper story and party member development than Icewind Dale, though honestly I prefer Icewind Dale to BG 2 I can still admit that BG 2 was a bigger step forward.)

Prior to Interplay, arguably it was Origin that was king of the CRPGs (with Ultima, arguably, being bigger than Wizardry or Bard's Tale or Phantasie.)

Now around the time of BG 2, both Diablo 2 and System Shock 2 (you know, the award-winning game from the Bioshock / Freedom Force people) and Deus Ex all came out so they COULD have taken the crown (all innovative and at least tangently CRPG in design.)  But Blizzard really was an RTS company, Irrational never got the attention it deserved, and what the heck did Ion Storm do other than Deus Ex?

Bethesda, however, got real notice with Morrowind and may be competing for the crown with Bioware after Oblivion and Fallout 3.

----

That's how.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

ever since they started making 3d games square enix has just flat out sucked

[MightySword]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

MightySword wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

(YE OLDE WALL O' TEXTE)

Goddamn. Your passion for the subject makes me almost want to care.

Better than exchanging several two liners rigged with stereotype, no?

Of course lik I said in the beginning, how much one is open to it depends on how strong one's established stereotype about it. I had carefully pick stuffs people can independently verify for themselves, but then they can dismissed and amount to nothing depending on the alttitdue.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[AVornoff]

JKoopman wrote...

Saying that JRPGs don't innovate is pretty bass-ackwards. If anything, my main fault with JRPGs is that they innovate too much. I hate having to learn some brand-new, incredibly complex and convoluted battle/skill upgrade/item creation system in every new JRPG I purchase. It can take hours to learn the finer points of each new system and sometimes, as in the case of Magna Carta, it's just completely fathomless to me and prevents me from enjoying it.

That's less innovation and more just tooling around.

[Cluck Norris]

JRPGs suck.



JRPGs need to die.



JRPGs are a dying genre (thanks god).



That is all.

[MerinTB]

Cluck Norris wrote...

JRPGs suck.

JRPGs need to die.

JRPGs are a dying genre (thanks god).

That is all.

Who can argue with such a factually based, well-reasoned argument like that?

"That is all " indeed.