613 réponses à ce sujet

[vhatever]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

MightySword wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

(YE OLDE WALL O' TEXTE)

Goddamn. Your passion for the subject makes me almost want to care.

Ya, i fell asleep after the real time stylisic arcade retro pinko deco system versus the psuedo real time stylisic arcade retro pinko deco system. My BS meter just happen to break about then, too.

[Jigero]

I think it's just ebb and flow, back in the day WRPGs sucked and couldn't even compare with a JRPG, not it's kinda the other way around. Although Demon Souls gave WRPGs a run for their money. I just miss the days of those just mind blowing JPRGs



I'd give anything too see JRPGs half as good as games like

Breath of Fire 2

Secret of Mana 3

Front Mission

Final Fantasy Tactics

Crono Trigger

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

Cluck Norris wrote...

JRPGs suck.

JRPGs need to die.

JRPGs are a dying genre (thanks god).

That is all.

Who can argue with such a factually based, well-reasoned argument like that?

"That is all " indeed.

This is how you do it.

I like waffles. Waffles r gud. Do you like waffles? We should be friends.

[MightySword]

Jigero wrote...
Front Mission

You can play Front Mission 5: Scar of War. And you can find a lot of games similar to the one you mentioned if you looks at some retro tittles on the DS or Wii. The mainstream releases is not the only place to find some JRPG.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 06:48 .

[vhatever]

Jigero wrote...

I think it's just ebb and flow, back in the day WRPGs sucked and couldn't even compare with a JRPG, not it's kinda the other way around. Although Demon Souls gave WRPGs a run for their money. I just miss the days of those just mind blowing JPRGs

I'd give anything too see JRPGs half as good as games like
Breath of Fire 2
Secret of Mana 3
Front Mission
Final Fantasy Tactics
Crono Trigger

I don't remember a period of WRPGs ever sucking, except for maybe the early 90s. It's not ebb and flow. It's more economy related than anything. If there are no good studios to put out games, you won't get any good games. The good JRPG studos have remained around, they just havent really done much in 20 years but rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

[Mikeuicus]

Maybe Square will realize that people like exploring the world and not running down a gauntlet for 40 hours which is what 13 is supposed to be like. I want to find dungeons, discover hidden fiends and converse with the townfolk of the world. That's what makes it an RPG, being able to talk to people, to feel like a part of the world, it's not the battle system or loot, its the characterization.



Mass Effect 2 streamlined alot of these elements, but for the better. You can still explore the galaxy and find sidequests, gather resources and upgrades and converse with your crew. I haven't played 13 so I can't say for sure, but the previews I've read and the above comments make me hesitant to purchase it.

[Jigero]

vhatever wrote...

Jigero wrote...

I think it's just ebb and flow, back in the day WRPGs sucked and couldn't even compare with a JRPG, not it's kinda the other way around. Although Demon Souls gave WRPGs a run for their money. I just miss the days of those just mind blowing JPRGs

I'd give anything too see JRPGs half as good as games like
Breath of Fire 2
Secret of Mana 3
Front Mission
Final Fantasy Tactics
Crono Trigger

I don't remember a period of WRPGs ever sucking, except for maybe the early 90s. It's not ebb and flow. It's more economy related than anything. If there are no good studios to put out games, you won't get any good games. The good JRPG studos have remained around, they just havent really done much in 20 years but rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

and western games don't? maybe the WRPG market is pure for now, but other genres western studios have beaten the dead horse to a fine pink mist, cloned another horse from the pink mist, killed it, then beat it again.

[Kohaku]

@XxTaLoNxX  - I'm skimming that article now and I've had some laugh out loud moments reading it. Mainly because most of it's true. Oh well, I'll know for sure when I get my copy.

@Ryzaki and the_one_54321 - You know what recent Square game I had a blast with, The World Ends With You. I have this odd feeling, in the back of my head, I will not see TWEWY 2. The story was a bit bizzare, but it wasn't too cookie cutter. The battle system was fast and I loved collecting and upgrading pins.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 18 février 2010 - 07:11 .

[memtz]

Mikeuicus wrote...

Maybe Square will realize that people like exploring the world and not running down a gauntlet for 40 hours which is what 13 is supposed to be like. I want to find dungeons, discover hidden fiends and converse with the townfolk of the world. That's what makes it an RPG, being able to talk to people, to feel like a part of the world, it's not the battle system or loot, its the characterization.

Mass Effect 2 streamlined alot of these elements, but for the better. You can still explore the galaxy and find sidequests, gather resources and upgrades and converse with your crew. I haven't played 13 so I can't say for sure, but the previews I've read and the above comments make me hesitant to purchase it.

And what about hack n' slash RPGs? They are about loot and such. Im not very fond of them, but you can't put what people want in one bag. Japanese and Western gamers have different tastes and among them every individual has his own taste. We can debate on what makes a RPG, but in the end of the day it's a game and if somebody likes it, is what matters. 
The only way to correctly judge the game is through objectivity and that's very hard for reviewers since they are humans, not machines.

[RetrOldSchool]

IMO WRPG's do vary a lot in quality. Two Worlds, Divinity II and Risen are 3 current gen RPG's that are really sub par. I would add Fable 2 to that list, but thats only my personal preference.

However, I think that Bioware RPG's > most other RPG's, eastern or western.

Current gen JRPG's are definiely lacking, except Tales of Vesperia, which is pretty good in an old school JRPG way. I think FFXIII will be cinematically solid and overall pretty ok for people into JRPGs, but I doubt it will be great.

The only game IMO that might be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with BW games is if Atlus keeps the quality of Persona 3 and 4 and makes a current gen Persona 5...

EDIT: missed a J on JRPG once

Modifié par RetrOldSchool, 18 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[dfjdejulio]

Jigero wrote...

FF12 got low reviews from who in the west? Last time I checked FF12 had nothing but stellar reviews from just about ever major reviewer, The only people who didn't like FF12 where the rabid fanboy mob, who thinks every thing before and after 7 sucks and just want 900 iterations of Cloud.

Not true.  I enjoyed 7 and 8 and X and a smattering of the earlier ones (and Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger and Xenosaga and Legend of Dragoon and and and...), and I couldn't make myself finish 12.

The big reason ties back to the original Square Enix explanation though.

I love RPGs.  The best for me are western RPGs, as long as they're good enough.  I think the best RPG I ever played was "Planescape: Torment".  Also loved Arcanum, KotOR, Jade Empire, you name it.  But there isn't always a decent western RPG on the market at any given time.  When there isn't, I'll turn to JRPGs and I'll enjoy them. But only when there's no western RPG "nearby".  Playing a good, open, rich western RPG makes all the JRPGs start to pale for me.

Of course YMMV.  But that's it for me.  If a Final Fantasy game comes out while there's a gap in the western RPG market, I will probably enjoy it.  But if it comes out right when there are decent western RPGs, I probably won't.

[vhatever]

Jigero wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Jigero wrote...

I think it's just ebb and flow, back in the day WRPGs sucked and couldn't even compare with a JRPG, not it's kinda the other way around. Although Demon Souls gave WRPGs a run for their money. I just miss the days of those just mind blowing JPRGs

I'd give anything too see JRPGs half as good as games like
Breath of Fire 2
Secret of Mana 3
Front Mission
Final Fantasy Tactics
Crono Trigger

I don't remember a period of WRPGs ever sucking, except for maybe the early 90s. It's not ebb and flow. It's more economy related than anything. If there are no good studios to put out games, you won't get any good games. The good JRPG studos have remained around, they just havent really done much in 20 years but rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

and western games don't? maybe the WRPG market is pure for now, but other genres western studios have beaten the dead horse to a fine pink mist, cloned another horse from the pink mist, killed it, then beat it again.

Of course they do. But it's all a matter of degree and additional innovation. Much like I inquired of whathisface, who couldn't name a single significant gameplay innovation that came from a JRPG.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

Are we talking about DA:O now? 

[the_one_54321]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

MightySword wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Why don't you share with me your list of incredible "innovative features"? Does showing teenaged and younger girl's panties qualify?

(YE OLDE WALL O' TEXTE)

Goddamn. Your passion for the subject makes me almost want to care.

Does it almost make you want to make any sense? I was hoping that it would make some folks around here want to make at a least a little bit of sense.

[MerinTB]

vhatever wrote...

Jigero wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Jigero wrote...

I think it's just ebb and flow, back in the day WRPGs sucked and couldn't even compare with a JRPG, not it's kinda the other way around. Although Demon Souls gave WRPGs a run for their money. I just miss the days of those just mind blowing JPRGs

I'd give anything too see JRPGs half as good as games like
Breath of Fire 2
Secret of Mana 3
Front Mission
Final Fantasy Tactics
Crono Trigger

I don't remember a period of WRPGs ever sucking, except for maybe the early 90s. It's not ebb and flow. It's more economy related than anything. If there are no good studios to put out games, you won't get any good games. The good JRPG studos have remained around, they just havent really done much in 20 years but rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

and western games don't? maybe the WRPG market is pure for now, but other genres western studios have beaten the dead horse to a fine pink mist, cloned another horse from the pink mist, killed it, then beat it again.

Of course they do. But it's all a matter of degree and additional innovation. Much like I inquired of whathisface, who couldn't name a single significant gameplay innovation that came from a JRPG.

Honestly?

No, you DISMISSED the long list of game features and innovations.  What you consider SIGNIFICANT is not universally held as signficant.   You moved the goal posts.  You asked for a list, and then dismissed them as not being significant.

Now I defended your statement about JRPG's initially copying games like Ultima and Wizardry, as this is pretty much documented and the commonly understood history of CRPGs. But you can't dismiss someone's long list of innovations.

Because you don't find deep story and indepth cut scenes "significant" doesn't mean they aren't.  The battle systems that JRPGs developed out of what SSI and Origins initially created are truly awe-inspiring, whether you find them fun or not.


EDIT - as for "period of WRPGs sucking", I'd say neither side every "sucked" but there were lulls in creativity and innovation.
The early 90's, until Fallout in 97, saw little that wasn't basically redoing what had already been done.  Notable exceptions would be Darklands, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Daggerfall, and MAYBE Ultima VI (depending on how you look at it, and that was 1990.)  But we've had a pretty good surge of CRPGs innovating and being creative for the last 13 years or so, with only the smallest of lulls.
Compare that to FPS.  You had Wolfenstein 3D creating the genre, Doom defining the genre, and (arguably) very little changing it until Halo, then a surge of creativity for a bit, a big change with Mass Effect (really, the first game to IMO effectively combine RPG and FPS (though it's 3rd person view, you get what I mean.)  Color me biased (not a FPS fan) but between Doom and Halo, what did the Duke Nuke 'Ems and Unreals and Quakes add (other than som game engines for other games?)
Somewhere in there Half-Life probably deserves a mention.  Ack - I shouldn't be touching FPS history, it's not my bailiwick.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Of course they do. But it's all a matter of degree and additional innovation. Much like I inquired of whathisface, who couldn't name a single significant gameplay innovation that came from a JRPG.

Honestly?

No, you DISMISSED the long list of game features and innovations.  What you consider SIGNIFICANT is not universally held as signficant.   You moved the goal posts.  You asked for a list, and then dismissed them as not being significant.

Now I defended your statement about JRPG's initially copying games like Ultima and Wizardry, as this is pretty much documented and the commonly understood history of CRPGs. But you can't dismiss someone's long list of innovations.

Because you don't find deep story and indepth cut scenes "significant" doesn't mean they aren't.  The battle systems that JRPGs developed out of what SSI and Origins initially created are truly awe-inspiring, whether you find them fun or not.

Seriously. An essay was given. And vhatever's response? "Oh, that's too big of an answer for me to be willing to read. "
@vhatever Really, you asked, and you were answered. You were given a full itemized page of answer. And you were even given references. You already look stupid, and you're just making it worse by not owning up. At least Garudo One fully owned up when his Tali obsession was pointed out.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 18 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Segameister]

After Morrowind on the Xbox, I simply couldn't play any of the FF games again, I can live without a big sandbox world to play in, as long as there's great storyline and depth. The FF games offer neither. Caveat - I'm sure the eastern gamers still enjoy the FF storylines, their culture is very different. The spin that what the east likes the west will like isn't necessarily true.

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
rehash the same gameplay and story cliches.

Are we talking about DA:O now? 

There are plenty of cliched elements in DAO, much like any RPG, but its the origin system that makes it different, where starting different race/upbringing character greatly impacts how you view and sometimes interract with the world.

I thought you were ignoring me after I completely embarrassed you for your inability to name any JRPG innovations? Pre-teen panties? Chocobo sex? Did they ever do that?

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Of course they do. But it's all a matter of degree and additional innovation. Much like I inquired of whathisface, who couldn't name a single significant gameplay innovation that came from a JRPG.

Honestly?

No, you DISMISSED the long list of game features and innovations.  What you consider SIGNIFICANT is not universally held as signficant.   You moved the goal posts.  You asked for a list, and then dismissed them as not being significant.

Now I defended your statement about JRPG's initially copying games like Ultima and Wizardry, as this is pretty much documented and the commonly understood history of CRPGs. But you can't dismiss someone's long list of innovations.

Because you don't find deep story and indepth cut scenes "significant" doesn't mean they aren't.  The battle systems that JRPGs developed out of what SSI and Origins initially created are truly awe-inspiring, whether you find them fun or not.

Seriously. An essay was given. And vhatever's response? "Oh, that's too big of an answer for me to be willing to read. "
@vhatever Really, you asked, and you were answered. You were given a full itemized page of answer. And you were even given references. You already look stupid, and you're just making it worse by not owning up. At least Garudo One fully owned up when his Tali obsession was pointed out.

Honestly? Kiss my ass. I read through his post. He supplied not a single legit innovation. Not a one.Anyone can write a rambling wall of meaningless text. You were well on your way here.

Modifié par vhatever, 18 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[the_one_54321]

Segameister wrote...
After Morrowind on the Xbox, I simply couldn't play any of the FF games again, I can live without a big sandbox world to play in, as long as there's great storyline and depth. The FF games offer neither. Caveat - I'm sure the eastern gamers still enjoy the FF storylines, their culture is very different. The spin that what the east likes the west will like isn't necessarily true.

Thank you! This I can accept. It's not insulting or demeaning. It just says "those games aren't for me." You'd think getting an answer like that is the same as pulling teeth around here.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
Honestly? Kiss my ass. I read through his post. He supplied not a single legit innovation. Not a one.Anyone can write a rambling wall of meaningless text. You were well on your way here.

Now that should be setting off your BS meter. He gave you a list of games and what they accomplished. If you're just going to ignore the games and what they accomplished well, I've already said it above.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
There are plenty of cliched elements in DAO, much like any RPG

The only important thing you've said so far.

[MerinTB]

vhatever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

vhatever wrote...
Of course they do. But it's all a matter of degree and additional innovation. Much like I inquired of whathisface, who couldn't name a single significant gameplay innovation that came from a JRPG.

Honestly?

No, you DISMISSED the long list of game features and innovations.  What you consider SIGNIFICANT is not universally held as signficant.   You moved the goal posts.  You asked for a list, and then dismissed them as not being significant.

Now I defended your statement about JRPG's initially copying games like Ultima and Wizardry, as this is pretty much documented and the commonly understood history of CRPGs. But you can't dismiss someone's long list of innovations.

Because you don't find deep story and indepth cut scenes "significant" doesn't mean they aren't.  The battle systems that JRPGs developed out of what SSI and Origins initially created are truly awe-inspiring, whether you find them fun or not.

Seriously. An essay was given. And vhatever's response? "Oh, that's too big of an answer for me to be willing to read. "
@vhatever Really, you asked, and you were answered. You were given a full itemized page of answer. And you were even given references. You already look stupid, and you're just making it worse by not owning up. At least Garudo One fully owned up when his Tali obsession was pointed out.

Honestly? Kiss my ass. I read through his post. He supplied not a single legit innovation. Not a one.Anyone can write a rambling wall of meaningless text. You were well on your way here.

Anyone can toss off an insult and then dismiss what another says with no proof.

What is your definition of legit?

What are the legit innovations of Western CRPGs?  I'm not saying they don't exist - I'm asking YOU to list them, and then watch as people just as stuck in their mindset dismiss all the things you list as being "not legit."

Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
There are plenty of cliched elements in DAO, much like any RPG

The only important thing you've said so far.

Well, if there weren't cliched elements, chances are they wouldn't be RPGs at all. The whole point of classifying something as an RPG is contigent upon specific elements that must present, making them defacto cliche. The entire line of reasoning is a red herring.