613 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Hey, I love WRPGs. I love BioWare games. I just think it's complete BS to start all this "SUPER BETTER!!!!!!" crap. From the start it was just an excuse for some to fling insults at things they find to be different and therefore scary and worty of ridicule.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
Well, if there weren't cliched elements, chances are they wouldn't be RPGs at all. The whole point of classifying something as an RPG is contigent upon specific elements that must present, making them defacto cliche. The entire line of reasoning is a red herring. 

And story telling is story telling no matter how it is implimented. Some people like linear. Others like open and variable. Some people like to play both from time to time. Different is OK.

[VanTesla]

When it was just Square Soft the jrpg's where good now with Enix they suck harder than a 50 year old veteran w#@re......

Then Enix blames bad press on western gamers that are mostly the same gamers that bought their games in the older days...?!? WTF!

I loved me some good jrpg but not the ton of crap that has been coming out for the past 10 plus years.... Just like anime has become crap.....Makes me a sad panda

Off topic: We need a angry face.

Modifié par VanTesla, 18 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Hey, I love WRPGs. I love BioWare games. I just think it's complete BS to start all this "SUPER BETTER!!!!!!" crap. From the start it was just an excuse for some to fling insults at things they find to be different and therefore scary and worty of ridicule.

You know I was addressing vhatever and not you, right?

I love CRPGs of any stripe.  I used to like JRPGs more than I have for some time - but I'm just as unwilling to put the time into Lost Odyssey as I am to put it into most of Bethesda's offerings.

Open World, and no linearity = Merin quickly lost and bored.

[the_one_54321]

VanTesla wrote...
Just like anime has become crap.....Makes me a sad panda

Have you seen Kara no Kyoukai? One of the best animes ever. And it just finished airing at the end of last year.

[BroBear Berbil]

I used to play a lot of JRPGs or just Japanese games in general but nowadays I don't play too many. Seems that a good portion of Japanese games are just stuck in the past and there's just stagnation in innovation. I've even resolved not to buy another Dynasty/Samurai Warriors game.



I think the most recent JRPG I played was Lost Odyssey and by the time I was done with it I was more disgusted with the game than satisfied because of the lame, confused story and terrible dialogue. I can't even bring myself to play Blue Dragon and Last Remnant - they've been sitting collecting dust for awhile now. I did like FF12 but only because the combat reminded me so much of FF11. I'm not even sure if I want to get into any Asian MMOs in the future either. I was positive I'd be playing FF14 when it comes out but now it's more likely that I'll stick to TOR instead. It's pretty troubling that Toriyama is simply baffled about the appeal of western RPGs.

[Kurupt87]

i am not a huge player of rpgs, as most games listed in previous posts i havent even heard of let alone played, but the general feel i get from comparing them is that WRPGs seem more realistic while JRPGs are more fantastic. i have played both, i have greatly enjoyed both. although i do feel like JRPGs are aimed at a younger audience than WRPGs, that may be due to my limited experience and unwitting/unconscious exposure to stereotypes.

and vhatever is an odd fish, i think he/she is a surprisingly intelligent troll, trolling, and rudely trolling as well, until proof is needed and then supplying the barest minimum to back up the argument in order to continue.

[Space Shot]

OnionXI wrote...

I used to play a lot of JRPGs or just Japanese games in general but nowadays I don't play too many. Seems that a good portion of Japanese games are just stuck in the past and there's just stagnation in innovation. I've even resolved not to buy another Dynasty/Samurai Warriors game.

I think the most recent JRPG I played was Lost Odyssey and by the time I was done with it I was more disgusted with the game than satisfied because of the lame, confused story and terrible dialogue. I can't even bring myself to play Blue Dragon and Last Remnant - they've been sitting collecting dust for awhile now. I did like FF12 but only because the combat reminded me so much of FF11. I'm not even sure if I want to get into any Asian MMOs in the future either. I was positive I'd be playing FF14 when it comes out but now it's more likely that I'll stick to TOR instead. It's pretty troubling that Toriyama is simply baffled about the appeal of western RPGs.

I'm pretty much at the same point.  Pokemon and FF were cool back in the day (way back) but the limits then probably had more to do with the hardware than conscious design choices.  Nowadays, those still present limitations do seem like conscious design choices to accommodate a complacent market with anachronistic expectations.

In other words, ditto.

[vhatever]

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Dude, are you serious? Every main RPG element was manifest in WRPGs before a single JRPG was ever even dreamt of. And legit only means real. Something real, not some absurd verbal masturbation like "psuedo real time turn based system".

[addiction21]

vhatever wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Dude, are you serious? Every main RPG element was manifest in WRPGs before a single JRPG was ever even dreamt of. And legit only means real. Something real, not some absurd verbal masturbation like "psuedo real time turn based system".

Does this mean your willing to show your supporting evidence to this claim? Or are you just going to keep on saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG NANNY NANNY BOO BOO!!"

[vhatever]

addiction21 wrote...

vhatever wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Dude, are you serious? Every main RPG element was manifest in WRPGs before a single JRPG was ever even dreamt of. And legit only means real. Something real, not some absurd verbal masturbation like "psuedo real time turn based system".

Does this mean your willing to show your supporting evidence to this claim? Or are you just going to keep on saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG NANNY NANNY BOO BOO!!"

I can't prove a negative. Anyone who isn't a moron  knows western RPG were around for a 5-7 years before JRPGs even showed up. I have no intention of teaching pigs to sing here.

[Kohaku]

Space Shot wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

I used to play a lot of JRPGs or just Japanese games in general but nowadays I don't play too many. Seems that a good portion of Japanese games are just stuck in the past and there's just stagnation in innovation. I've even resolved not to buy another Dynasty/Samurai Warriors game.

I think the most recent JRPG I played was Lost Odyssey and by the time I was done with it I was more disgusted with the game than satisfied because of the lame, confused story and terrible dialogue. I can't even bring myself to play Blue Dragon and Last Remnant - they've been sitting collecting dust for awhile now. I did like FF12 but only because the combat reminded me so much of FF11. I'm not even sure if I want to get into any Asian MMOs in the future either. I was positive I'd be playing FF14 when it comes out but now it's more likely that I'll stick to TOR instead. It's pretty troubling that Toriyama is simply baffled about the appeal of western RPGs.

I'm pretty much at the same point.  Pokemon and FF were cool back in the day (way back) but the limits then probably had more to do with the hardware than conscious design choices.  Nowadays, those still present limitations do seem like conscious design choices to accommodate a complacent market with anachronistic expectations.

In other words, ditto.

I said how much I loved Lost Odyssey so I don't agree, however, Blue Dragon was a terrible, colorful mess. I had my fun with it and shelved it, unfinished. Last Remnant had the same issue. It had its moments but from the constant crashes to so many gauges on the screen at the time, it wasn't worth it to get though.  The newest Pokemon I may not be buying. It's just a rehash of the last one I already played.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 18 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[Busomjack]

I don't understand how anyone could go back to playing JRPGs after being spoiled by Bioware's greatness.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
I can't prove a negative. Anyone who isn't a moron  knows western RPG were around for a 5-7 years before JRPGs even showed up. I have no intention of teaching pigs to sing here.

The first RPGs in the west worked on isometric combat and exploration. I believe it was the first FF that first introduced a combat screen, and the list of "firsts" just goes on from there in Japanese games.

[the_one_54321]

Busomjack wrote...
I don't understand how anyone could go back to playing JRPGs after being spoiled by Bioware's greatness.

Because some people like JRPGs specifically because they are different. If the kind of game BioWare makes was the only kind of game I ever wanted to play, then I'd only play BioWare games. If FPSs was the only kind of game I ever wanted to play, I'd only play FPSs. But people like different kinds of games than other people. So they like to play those different kinds of games.

[Busomjack]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Busomjack wrote...
I don't understand how anyone could go back to playing JRPGs after being spoiled by Bioware's greatness.

Because some people like JRPGs specifically because they are different. If the kind of game BioWare makes was the only kind of game I ever wanted to play, then I'd only play BioWare games. If FPSs was the only kind of game I ever wanted to play, I'd only play FPSs. But people like different kinds of games than other people. So they like to play those different kinds of games.

But how can anyone go back to the on rails storyline approach prevelent in JRPGs when you're given so much interaction and involvement in games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age?  It's not just different, it's inferior.

[the_one_54321]

Busomjack wrote...
But how can anyone go back to the on rails storyline approach prevelent in JRPGs when you're given so much interaction and involvement in games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age?

You get a different kind of story with linear than you do with open. I, quite honestly, like the linear stories better. I want to hear the writers tell their story, instead of me telling it for them.

The other way is great too. As BioWare has consistantly shown.

Busomjack wrote...
It's not just different, it's inferior.

No, you just like one better than the other. Personal preferene doesn't effect quality.

[Busomjack]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Busomjack wrote...
But how can anyone go back to the on rails storyline approach prevelent in JRPGs when you're given so much interaction and involvement in games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age?

You get a different kind of story with linear than you do with open. I, quite honestly, like the linear stories better. I want to hear the writers tell their story, instead of me telling it for them.

The other way is great too. As BioWare has consistantly shown.

Busomjack wrote...
It's not just different, it's inferior.

No, you just like one better than the other. Personal preferene doesn't effect quality.

It is inferior though.  You mentioned how you like to hear writers tell their stories but the truth is that this is exactly what Bioware games do as well.  Bioware games take it a step further though since they let you actively participate in those stories the way you feel.  If I just want to hear a story where I am given no say and my opinions don't matter I'll read a book or watch a movie.  Bioware games prove that gaming is the best medium for story telling possible.

[the_one_54321]

Busomjack wrote...
It is inferior though.  You mentioned how you like to hear writers tell their stories but the truth is that this is exactly what Bioware games do as well.  Bioware games take it a step further though since they let you actively participate in those stories the way you feel.  If I just want to hear a story where I am given no say and my opinions don't matter I'll read a book or watch a movie.  Bioware games prove that gaming is the best medium for story telling possible.

I want to know what David Gaider thinks should have happened between the PC and Alistair.

I want to know what Kirby or The Chee think should have happend with Morrigan or Leliana and the PC.

All I know is what the player chooses. There is a differnece between making decisions in the story and just watching the story. Niether is better or worse. Some people like to watch, other like to direct. FF games may be very cinematic and linear, but it's not the same was watching a movie. I've yet to see a movie that is 70+ hours long.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 18 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Kalfear]

BeyondFX wrote...

Bioware in my opinion has really pushed the envelope for what an rpg can encompass. I've played everything Since kotor to ME2 (except for NWN..) and never have I been let down. They're always trying new things while keeping to the core of what makes a bioware game unique. It's not just bioware either, other western companies are also trying to push ahead while on the other hand many jrpgs still fall into the same routines. It's like they got to a happy place then decided to stop there which was maybe a decade ago or so.

agree

KotOR
Jade Empire
Mass Effect
Dragon Age: Origins

Each one of these games upped the anti on what a RPG can produce. Upping the expectation for others.

I really dont think Oblivion and Morrowing and Fallout 3 raised the bar much. Yes they were open ended but they were open ended at cost of story. Bioware how ever doesnt forget about the story in their games.

Now ME2 was a obvious step back wards but it also wasnt suppose to be a pure RPG so I guess comparing it to ME1 and DA:O not fair on some levels. Still game RPG wise could have and should have been stronger while having better game play, didnt have to be 1 or the other situation.

I still think there a market for JRPGs, I thin they need to grow up though. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the imagination that goes into JRPGs, the imagination blows away WRPG on almost all levels but then you get the annoying kid and talking monkey and welp, its all gone and lost.

Japan anime is still abonifid art form they can use, RPGs still very sellable concepts, Japan just needs to grow up and make their games more mature and grown up! 

I know id pay gladly for a grown up version of cyber punk and other titles as RPGs.

JRPGs have a place in the industry, they just gotten stale and to kiddified over the years is all.

RPG shouldnt mean kids and I think developers are starting to learn this lesson. 

[vhatever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
I can't prove a negative. Anyone who isn't a moron  knows western RPG were around for a 5-7 years before JRPGs even showed up. I have no intention of teaching pigs to sing here.

The first RPGs in the west worked on isometric combat and exploration. I believe it was the first FF that first introduced a combat screen, and the list of "firsts" just goes on from there in Japanese games.

Actually many of the the first ones were 2d overhead, (like 95% of JRPGs) and 3-d , like Ultima's dungeon crawling portion of the game. In fact, ultima ended up doing them all: 2-d overhead, isometric(was called 3/4 overhead back then),  and 3-d.

You think a combat screen is an innovation? You mean having to load an entire different screen for combat to occur? If I pounded a nail in your head to hang my hat, would you consider it an innovation? I'm not sure its an innovation nor could I say they were the first. Many of the random encounters in early WRPG took you to a combat screen with picture of the enemy you came across and new combat-related options.

[MightySword]

vhatever wrote...
There are plenty of cliched elements in DAO, much like any RPG, but its the origin system that makes it different, where starting different race/upbringing character greatly impacts how you view and sometimes interract with the world.

Suikoden 3 let you choose and alternate between 3 different characters with completely different view point and support cast to tackle the story. Super Robot War Orginal Generation let you choose between two main characters again with completely different scenario, support cast and equipment. And they're not a one hour segment either, it takes 1/3 to 1/2 of the game for their story to converge. Or in Star Ocean 2 you can choose between two characters that will change all the interaction available to you. But than, except for Star Ocean 2 it's a fat chance anyone who hold a prejudice against JRPG would ever play the other two games, hell or even know they exist.

Pre-teen panties? Chocobo sex? Did they ever do that?

I can give you name of games that you can go and find exactly those if you're looking for that. There are JRPG that's rigged with innuendo and make a point about providing fan service. But I had also given you JRPGs that don't have those, whether you choose to believe it or not is your choice. Pro Tip: if you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And really, I think the Panties in JRPG is as original as the over-expose female chest-armour in WRPG, so what's the point?

vhatever wrote...
Honestly? Kiss my ass. I read through his post. He supplied not a single legit innovation.

Well, either you have a very high expectation of innovation, or all the editors from Gamespy, Gamespot, IGN, Gametrailer were all playing a different game when they were praising Valkyria Chronicle. And I guess having a full-featured item creation like one of those $5 arcade DLC from PSN/Xboxlive is much less desirable than having just a bare bone system. And building a town is something every RPG can take for granted, am I right?

Anyone can write a rambling wall of meaningless text.

Oh I agree, just like how anyone can say someone else is wrong. Here, "Everything you say so far in this topic is wrong, end of line". See, easy. But you know what is hard? Pointing out why the other guy is wrong. The difference is with your style, we can sit here all days throwing insult and stereotype at each other either until one of us is bored or a mod come here and lock the thread down. The latter case ... who know, might have something productiive coming out of it. So say ... I have go through lenght to prove why you're wrong, not just saying you're wrong. "Dare" to do the same? Youtube is a great thing, I can guarantee you I'm able to backup anything I said with visual evidence. But of course, it's so much easier just saying "you're wrong, simple as that". I know, it's tempting sometime.


If you have actually read it my post till the end, you would see that I'm not arguing about their good/bad, and I even tell you some of them is bad. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

I like the comment below the article stating that he clearly hadn't played Dragon Age: Origins. DA:O makes JRPGs look ridiculous.

[Endurance_117]

Demon's Souls a JRPG won game of the year in 2009

DS shat on WRPG's bofore it

Modifié par Endurance_117, 18 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[Kurupt87]

Busomjack wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Busomjack wrote...
But how can anyone go back to the on rails storyline approach prevelent in JRPGs when you're given so much interaction and involvement in games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age?

You get a different kind of story with linear than you do with open. I, quite honestly, like the linear stories better. I want to hear the writers tell their story, instead of me telling it for them.

The other way is great too. As BioWare has consistantly shown.

Busomjack wrote...
It's not just different, it's inferior.

No, you just like one better than the other. Personal preferene doesn't effect quality.

It is inferior though.  You mentioned how you like to hear writers tell their stories but the truth is that this is exactly what Bioware games do as well.  Bioware games take it a step further though since they let you actively participate in those stories the way you feel.  If I just want to hear a story where I am given no say and my opinions don't matter I'll read a book or watch a movie.  Bioware games prove that gaming is the best medium for story telling possible.

no, again it is just you that feel it is inferior, and you are well within your right to have that opinion, true as it is for you. in the japanese games you really do take on the "role" of the role playing game, and its the one the writers choose. the linearity makes that one specific story more potent than a more open ended story. take FFX for example, i really loved that story, overlooking the cliches found in all these types of games, and really got to know the characters and the universe (tidus even says, "this is my story"). that type of game is peerless when telling a story, better than a film because you are in it. (better that most books yes, but a book by a really good author takes you to places in your mind, unbound by graphics etc as this is is ME2 forum i'll plug a series of SF books, author Peter F Hamilton writes within a universe called The Commonwealth Saga, they are imo, some of the best books i've read in my life, and i've read a hell of a lot of books. also, jack reacher novels by Lee Child are among the best modern action books out there, and you guys would like the char, hes kinda like shep).
obviously, because it is their story and you have no chance to adapt it at all, it's not to everyones taste (ie tidus being a whiny lil...) but because you are along for the ride you put yourself in the characters shoes (rather than giving the character you're shoes, so to speak, like in BW's games).
i've probably explained this badly, but what im trying to say is that jrpgs tell you a story, whereas wrpgs you choose you're story from what is available.