613 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

MightySword wrote...

vhatever wrote...
There are plenty of cliched elements in DAO, much like any RPG, but its the origin system that makes it different, where starting different race/upbringing character greatly impacts how you view and sometimes interract with the world.

Suikoden 3 let you choose and alternate between 3 different characters with completely different view point and support cast to tackle the story. Super Robot War Orginal Generation let you choose between two main characters again with completely different scenario, support cast and equipment. And they're not a one hour segment either, it takes 1/3 to 1/2 of the game for their story to converge. Or in Star Ocean 2 you can choose between two characters that will change all the interaction available to you. But than, except for Star Ocean 2 it's a fat chance anyone who hold a prejudice against JRPG would ever play the other two games, hell or even know they exist.

Pre-teen panties? Chocobo sex? Did they ever do that?

I can give you name of games that you can go and find exactly those if you're looking for that. There are JRPG that's rigged with innuendo and make a point about providing fan service. But I had also given you JRPGs that don't have those, whether you choose to believe it or not is your choice. Pro Tip: if you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And really, I think the Panties in JRPG is as original as the over-expose female chest-armour in WRPG, so what's the point?

vhatever wrote...
Honestly? Kiss my ass. I read through his post. He supplied not a single legit innovation.

Well, either you have a very high expectation of innovation, or all the editors from Gamespy, Gamespot, IGN, Gametrailer were all playing a different game when they were praising Valkyria Chronicle. And I guess having a full-featured item creation like one of those $5 arcade DLC from PSN/Xboxlive is much less desirable than having just a bare bone system. And building a town is something every RPG can take for granted, am I right?

Anyone can write a rambling wall of meaningless text.

Oh I agree, just like how anyone can say someone else is wrong. Here, "Everything you say so far in this topic is wrong, end of line". See, easy. But you know what is hard? Pointing out why the other guy is wrong. The difference is with your style, we can sit here all days throwing insult and stereotype at each other either until one of us is bored or a mod come here and lock the thread down. The latter case ... who know, might have something productiive coming out of it. So say ... I have go through lenght to prove why you're wrong, not just saying you're wrong. "Dare" to do the same? Youtube is a great thing, I can guarantee you I'm able to backup anything I said with visual evidence. But of course, it's so much easier just saying "you're wrong, simple as that". I know, it's tempting sometime.


If you have actually read it my post till the end, you would see that I'm not arguing about their good/bad, and I even tell you some of them is bad. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Oh god Mighty Sword. Ownage! 

[Mikka-chan]

For those who commented on the post I made like, six pages ago: thank you. After writing that, I admit to feeling ridiculously embarrassed, and sort of trooped away from the bioware site in shame ('Oh no, the people on the internet are now going to think I'm a wreck who totally just went off in the middle of a topic to counter-flame some guy while 'whining' about my past and stupid decisions I made! What if they, too, live in the wilds of Middle of Nowhere, PA (or Middle of Somewhere, Spain, where I currently am working) and will now know, somewhere, that there is someone very strange with a silly name living nearby! The horror! And I can't even delete it as that nice person just quoted me. Foo.')... but... it's really sort of cool that despite the fact that we've spent most of this topic going back and forth ****ing at each other, that didn't end up as more flame bait crazy even though I'd totally understand if it did. You people rule. Particularly if you're on my side. Hm. >.>

Again, thanks, and I'm sorry for the derailment back there.

Trying to catch up with where the topic is going. is innovation that much of an important thing? What exactly are we looking, for here? I'll tell you about my favorite game (EVEH, of course) although sadly this means spoilers: You play a premade protagonist. Said protagonist knows absolutely nothing about the world he lives in, causing massive info-dumps every few moments as he gets every little detail explained to him. You are joined almost immediately by a 'snarky sidekick' who gets hordes of 'kewl' one-liners and who is quite capable, but who despite that is completely dependent on the main character to make all decisions, even ones that concern him. Soon after you meet your love interest, who constantly berates you and those who travel with you in a way that we might refer to as hot-and-cold-but-mostly-****y (or 'tsundere', if we're weeaboos, which I believe I was told I was somewhere back there). Your companions step right out of TV Tropes: you'll come across your brooding warrior and the pure and pretty healer, as well as a childish young refugee of sorts from an otherwise completely serious race. All of them are of course broken in some way, but the protagonist is a Therapist and can make It All Better (sort of). You'll meet the only non evil member of a totally evil race (who is not evil because she's in love with the protagonist, of course: who woulda thunk?), get a positively useless cute thing as a pet (ISN'T IT CUTE THOUGH?), be forced to follow a linear path (complete with areas you can't revisit once you've left)... you know the drill. To top it off, the combat is horrible: the best you can say is that there's some nice spell animations. Which of course means the game throws you in to random combat areas with no real seeming purpose but 'kill everything in front of me, yup'. It's not challenging, and death is incredibly cheap- no setback at all. To top it off (and if you haven't figured this out by now, you get no cookies, which is sad), it has an amnesia plot.

It's still an incredibly fantastic game. Was it innovative, though? Not really. The setting was unusual, but Planescape was a standard D&D setting. The amount of text was incredible, but 'lots of text' is not exactly innovative. What the game did was take common tropes: 'Amnesia Plot', for instance, and use them to their hilt. It wasn't subverted- it was an amnesia plot. But I think it is probably the best 'amnesia plot' story I can think of, and even if it's not *the* best, it's definitely in the top five.

'People are in horrible danger. Your character is, by circumstance rather then choice, the only one in a position to fix this. Setting your eyes on the Big Bad early on (although there is a good chance that the Big Bad's 'Dragon' (tv tropes style) will play a big part or that there is a Man Behind the Man), your character cannot currently reach them. Your character will go on a journey to find information and do some preparation, traveling and picking up allies as they go. Standing somewhat outside of 'official' channels, people will be both wary and awed as your character comes in to their life, and your character will inevitably change the circumstance and the beliefs of people as they continue you. There will be at least one horrible revelation and there is very likely to be in turn a painful, ugly sacrifice: despite that, your character will keep their head held high and do what they must. They will confront the Dragon (who will touch on Redemption Equals Death, although the character may have an option to say 'screw that'), then they will continue on to the Big Bad, followed by a loyal group of friends and having reached the plateau where even former doubters are desperately hoping for the best. The character will inevitably beat said Big Bad, and the world will move on, but the character's actions will heavily influence things for quite a long time even if the character fades in to the ether.'

It's KOTOR (and KOTOR 2, for that matter)! It's Jade Empire! It's Dragon Age: Origins (although Loghain is not the Archdemon's Dragon, which ruins it). It's Mass Effect, and Mass Effect II! It's even sort of the first Baldur's Gate! Heck, even Planescape: Torment matches up to it pretty well. It's the Heroes Journey, and it's a plot that Bioware does splendidly. But although there are innovations in the game, I'm not sure I would consider any of the games incredibly innovative.

...Hm, the topic's probably actually changed completely while I've been writing this post. Darn. Shouldn't work and post on boards at the same time, I guess. XD

Modifié par Mikka-chan, 18 février 2010 - 09:52 .

[MightySword]

Busomjack wrote...

I don't understand how anyone could go back to playing JRPGs after being spoiled by Bioware's greatness.

That's like saying after eating a chocolate cake and see how sweet it is, you declare a Lemon tart cake is inferior. That's only correct if you're someone who love sweet and hate sour flavor. But what about people who like both taste? Samething, you're only correct if you peiceve Linearity and Open-end on a good/bad scale. And a lot of people here believe it's a subjective things, not an absolute.

We don't defend Linearity and say it's better than open-end. If Bethesa releases a linear game, a lot of us gonna scream (myself included), but it has its use in JRPG. Liking on does not exclude the others, just like a person can enjoy eating both a Chocolate cake and a Lemon Tart.


I think it has been made quite clear that many of us enjoy both gerne, if we come across as defensive on the JRPG side it is to counter the overwhelming negative on this board. I think there are two population in this thread now: those who "exclusively like WRPG and hate JRPG", and those who "like both WRPG and JRPG". I don't think there is anyone here who belongs to the group of "exclusively like JRPG and hate WRPG". We're not defending JRPG, we're defending the reason to like both JRPG and WRPG. Or at least, we are trying to say there is no need to bash JRPG in order to appreciate WRPG. After all, which do you prefer: being called the more intelligent man, or being called the less stupid man?

[MerinTB]

vhatever wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

vhatever wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Sit on the other side of the unfair scorn.  Give us a list of Western CRPG innovations.
I promise I'll fairly judge them - I think I've been pretty balanced for my entire involvement in this thread.
Of course, I also bet you others will not be fair - just like here you aren't being fair.

Dude, are you serious? Every main RPG element was manifest in WRPGs before a single JRPG was ever even dreamt of. And legit only means real. Something real, not some absurd verbal masturbation like "psuedo real time turn based system".

Does this mean your willing to show your supporting evidence to this claim? Or are you just going to keep on saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG NANNY NANNY BOO BOO!!"

I can't prove a negative. Anyone who isn't a moron  knows western RPG were around for a 5-7 years before JRPGs even showed up. I have no intention of teaching pigs to sing here.

You are arguing against a strawman.  No one was disagreeing with you that western CRPGs came first.  I backed up your statement about Ultima and Wizardry being the basis for Dragon Knight and Final Fantasy.

Cut scenes, deep stories, deeply developed characters, combat systems, inventory systems, graphical & animation & layout designs . . . JRPGs did do many things in the genre first.  Not all, and I don't even think anyone was arguing MOST.

Only a Western CRPG sycophant or a dishonest, hypocritical rabble-rouser would claim that only one side side of an industry created all the innovations and had all the creativity.

---

You keep saying absolute declaritive statements that you say are true virtue of you saying they are true.  But anytime you bring up a supposed fact, it can be tested.
And, yes, we can prove that a claim of yours is negative.  Let's take this one.

"Every main RPG element was manifest in WRPGs before a single JRPG was
ever even dreamt of"

Hyperbolic, maybe, but its about the only statement you've given recently that we can factually examine (you're defintion of "legit" meaning "real" seems to defy logic, since real innovations have been listed but you refuse to acknowledge they actually exist.)

So, no RPG elements were added to CRPGs after JRPGs emerged, basically?

Discounting Japanese games like Dragon Slayer and Hydlide (1984 and 1985), let's look JUST at when Dragon Quest (1986) and Final Fantasy (1987) came out.
Dragon Quest (Dragon Warrior in the West) was basically THE console RPG to which most subsequent console RPGs were compared to.
Final Fantasy is considered just as influential.  The creator stated he wasn't good at action games so he wanted to focus on telling a story.  The music was composed and became a staple of the series, perhaps one of the first CRPGs to have music people wanted outside of the game (most CRPGs in the West were solo composed on computer synthesizers and extremely simple and repetetive.)

Comtemporary CRPGs in the west at this time were Alternate Reality: The City, Might & Magic I, Bard's Tale II, Phantasie II and Wizard's Crown for Dragon Quest; Phantasie III, Wizardry IV, and The Eternal Dagger for Final Fantasy.

No JRPGs even imagined before all the main CRPG elements existed, huh?  You do realize there were not even any Gold Box SSI AD&D games out yet?  No Knights of Legend, no Magic Candle, no Wasteland - let alone later games like Hero's Quest, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Darklands and so on.

---

You want to hold to the claim that no major CRPG elements appeared after 1987?

[MerinTB]

You know, I find myself rehashing an old argument with Skellimancer here, just from a different angle.



Where is Skellimancer to pounce on this thread and say there hasn't been ANY innovations in ANY CRPG's since Ultima 1?

[Lucy Glitter]

It's just cause a lot of people don't like JRPG. I personally don't, as I find them all to hold the same cliches and I am not a fan of the battle system.



However, a lot of western fans like JRPGS. It's just your preference.

[vhatever]

MightySword wrote...

Suikoden 3 let you choose and alternate between 3 different characters ...

Good for Suikoden 3. Do you consider that aspect to be common in RPGs? No. So it's not cliched. Suikoden wasn't the first to d it, either, but it's a rare enough feature to make it standout as more then a generic RPG.

MightySword wrote...
 And really, I think the Panties in JRPG is as original as the over-expose female chest-armour in WRPG, so what's the point?

The point is, nothing innovative ever came from JRPGs, and that was my sarcastic reflections on the fact. Do you think I actually think pre-teen panties are "innovative"?

MightySword wrote...
Well, either you have a very high expectation of innovation, or all the editors from Gamespy, Gamespot, IGN, Gametrailer were all playing a different game when they were praising Valkyria Chronicle. And I guess having a full-featured item creation like one of those $5 arcade DLC from PSN/Xboxlive is much less desirable than having just a bare bone system. And building a town is something every RPG can take for granted, am I right?

You ever seen the god damn item creation in UO? You could make everything you could possibly use in the world: boats, houses, dyes, spellbooks, castles, clothes, weapons, armors, chairs, tables, statues, poison, etc. There are already genres entirely devoted to "making towns". Why the hell wouldn't I just play a game tailored for that style of play instead of a half assed job of it in an RPG? And how is that innovative to copy someone/something else?

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh god Mighty Sword. Ownage! 

This is why I asked him to come post here.

[Mokinokaro]

It's not fair to say all JRPGs are full of the same cliches and then go and defend Bioware. Bioware games are extremely cliche. They just happen to be very well written cliches.



Combat mechanics are a whole different story, but vary wildly based on the game. Even the Final Fantasy series has varied heavily on that front (heck, XII's actually pretty close to Dragon Age on the console.)

[Link9us]

I can't stand all the JRPG hate here. This is just outragious, why do you have to be so critical. What ever happend to just simply enjoying a game. I honestly really never found a game that was utter trash accept for maybe Last Remnant or the .hack Gu series. That probably has the most repetitive type battle system ive ever experienced. I usually am hardcore when it comes to game, im a completionist and i complete everything in a game so i get my money's worth. What you don't seem to understand is there different cultures, japanese cultures deals with more teen like sexualiry appareances, but honestly that won't stop me from playing. So what if you have a few cute girls and a guy with a teenage guy with a sword. What matters mostly is the story and game play mechanics. You guys all act like your anti to the japanese culture completely which is unfortunate. They have some new and unique idea's that they use in games that are much different then us. Honestly i personally disagree with saying that bioware has more compelling stories. JRPGS tend to focus on more character development and human interaction as well as an emotionally charged story that keeps you on edge, gives you that feeling of just falling in love with the characters. To me thats important for me to want to continue playing an rpg game. For me one of the best experiences i ever had with an rpg is probably xenosaga. Though the story may be linear for sure, but you could be damn sure the plot is one of the richly complex story telling ive ever seen in an rpg. It's what alot of anime series always successfully accomplish but never really flesh out the story ideas in there games. Like you said most stories are kind of clich but that is one such title where thats not true.

You guys are just stuck on your action oriented games like halo, mass effect, and fallout 3. I think Toriyama makes a very good point, when you have a game that is so fully open to world exploration and stuff like that, you can't really develop a strong interactive story with good character development. That is what Final Fantasy XIII has really treid to acompllish so i am deffinitly looking forward to it. Some of the best story telling ive ever seen is in alot of anime series that i watch. I really havn't seen much anything great in the western world, as far as cartoons or movies are concered. Japanese are the ones that always come out with the complex ideas in there story, mostly shown in anime.

Modifié par Link9us, 18 février 2010 - 09:46 .

[kregano]

Personally, I go more for WRPGs because they tend to have more attributes that appeal to me. ME1 and 2 are SciFi games that feature guns, spaceships, robots, and aliens, which are things I tend to like, plus the game mechanics are easy to understand (shoot something enough, it dies; research this, your ship improves; etc...). Most JRPGs seem to be all about going around waving a sword in a medieval style environment and feature tons of magic, which doesn't really appeal to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy stuff like the Lord of the Rings, but there's only so much you can do with that kind of fantasy setup.



Now, there are some JRPGs willing to move away from the usual JRPG settings and conventions, like Infinite Space and Resonance of Fate, but they are sort of hampered by some vestigial traits of stale JRPG design. Infinite Space is dominated by complex charts full of contextless stats, and Resonance of Fate has a complex battle system that seems to exist to increase frustration rather than make battles enjoyable. I admit that I might not be the sort of person who enjoys these games, but one would think that game designers would use a familiar old design axiom to heart: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. And Western designers tend to be more successful at that than Japanese designers, but I think there is significant resistance to simplifying things (at least when it comes to stats and battle systems) in the Japanese studios to blame for that.

[Kenrae]

I'm more into WPRG (and I'm even more into real RPGs, you know, pen&paper) but I have fond memories of a couple of JRPGs. Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6, specially the last one. FF6 was an amazing game with a great story and pretty good characters; and it didn't feel like it was aimed at twelve years old boys. FF7 was quite good too at the time even if too much over the top for my tastes.

And of course, there was Cobra Mission when I was a teen .

[Lucy Glitter]

MightySword wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

I don't understand how anyone could go back to playing JRPGs after being spoiled by Bioware's greatness.

That's like saying after eating a chocolate cake and see how sweet it is, you declare a Lemon tart cake is inferior. That's only correct if you're someone who love sweet and hate sour flavor. But what about people who like both taste? Samething, you're only correct if you peiceve Linearity and Open-end on a good/bad scale. And a lot of people here believe it's a subjective things, not an absolute.

We don't defend Linearity and say it's better than open-end. If Bethesa releases a linear game, a lot of us gonna scream (myself included), but it has its use in JRPG. Liking on does not exclude the others, just like a person can enjoy eating both a Chocolate cake and a Lemon Tart.


I think it has been made quite clear that many of us enjoy both gerne, if we come across as defensive on the JRPG side it is to counter the overwhelming negative on this board. I think there are two population in this thread now: those who "exclusively like WRPG and hate JRPG", and those who "like both WRPG and JRPG". I don't think there is anyone here who belongs to the group of "exclusively like JRPG and hate WRPG". We're not defending JRPG, we're defending the reason to like both JRPG and WRPG. Or at least, we are trying to say there is no need to bash JRPG in order to appreciate WRPG. After all, which do you prefer: being called the more intelligent man, or being called the less stupid man?

Someone who actually has an understanding of the human condition.

<3

[spernus]

MerinTB wrote...

Overall, I've looked.  Now I've not spent hours, so I'm quite willing to accept I missed the negative reviews.  But the worst I found was Play UK giving it a 79 and saying "However, some aspects of the game and its battle system are so good that
it's still engaging and fun to play...most of the time."  Again, comparitively, DAO got as it's 3 lowest scores (on the PS3) a 70, a 63, and a 50 and the 360 version got a 74, a 60 and a 50.  FF XIII doesn't have nearly as many reviews yet, but it's lowest three are 85. 81, 79.

Those reviews are based on the japanese version.

Don't worry about it,FF XIII will get 7 or 6 from some site when it's released in the US and Europe.It's obvious knowing game critics that some will knock it because of the lack of towns or typical jrpg/FF element they would expect.

If anything,it will probably end up around 85-86% and that would make it one of the worst rated FF.

Of course,gamers who still enjoy FF won't care and it will sell well anyway and FF XIV will make more profit than XIII could ever hope.

Final Fantasy will continue to sell well even if the serie goes mediocre,but there will come a point where SE will ask themselves: worth it to make a game costing 60 million to sell 3-4 million copies and a mediocre profit? If FF XIII is the lowest selling game since it became mainstream,the serie will have to be re-invented or they will have to change how they actually create games at SE.There's no way a game selling 3-4 million copies should cost 60+ million to make.

Modifié par spernus, 18 février 2010 - 09:54 .

[Mokinokaro]

No innovation in JRPGs, really?

Except for the fact that JRPGs were the first to be major breakthroughs and the main reason games like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc. existed. Before Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior, western developers didn't really see electronic RPGs as a real possibility. CRPGs were an insanely small niche before stuff like the first Final Fantasy brought RPGs in general to the mainstream.

And JRPGs do have a lot of innovation (though, admittedly, usually cliche plots but Bioware's no better on that front.) They've come a long way from the fully turnbased stuff like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy 1, though some games purposely copy those styles to be retro (which is exactly what Dragon Age is to WRPGs.)

Final Fantasy itself has evolved quite a bit and even made some mis-steps along the way:
FF1 (player created party, thin plot, mostly about grinding and exploration)
FF2 (Japanese one, not American, characters semi-defined for plot reasons, more story focused. Horribly broken levelling system.)
FF3 (actually never played the Japanese one.)
FF4 (character classes now already defined, very focused on plot. Battle turn times now for individual characters based on stats.)
FF5 (first real use of the job system, allowing more character customization while keeping them relevant to the plot, weaker plot than 4 though)
FF6 (square hasn't topped this one, very tight plot, characters all have preset skills but Espers allow them to learn whatever magic you want.)
FF7 (mostly improved on 6 in the graphics department, but the materia system is still one of my favourite character customization systems.)
FF8 (went for a darker plot, battle/skill system extremely broken, punished you for levelling. Square's biggest misstep.)
FF9 (was a bit too retro for its own good. Tried to mix the best parts of the older FFs and only partially succeeded.)
FFX (huge graphical leap, but extremely linear, 13 will be this way too, though the plot was a lot less cliche than most games.)
FFX! (only semi-decent MMO, less said the better.)
FFXII (tried to combine FFXI's battle system with a single player game, was an interesting experiment but I wasn't a fan of the game half playing itself.)
FFXIII (jury's still out, but I'm hearing a lot of mixed opinions.)

spernus, it'll be sadly ironic if most of the negative reviews for FFXIII are because it isn't traditional enough.   Square's taken some big risks (mostly for the sake of telling a tighter story) and I'm interested in how it'll pay off.

Modifié par Mokinokaro, 18 février 2010 - 10:02 .

[addiction21]

Mikka-chan wrote...
snip

DO they have waffles in Spain? (and dont you ever worry what us psychos on the forums think of you. Well unless you end up in those wilds of PA because you just might be in my backyard)

Edit: GIVE ME A REAL SEQUEL TO FF TACTICS DAMNIT!!!!

Modifié par addiction21, 18 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[vhatever]

Mokinokaro wrote...

No innovation in JRPGs, really?

List them.

[the_one_54321]

vhatever wrote...
List them.

[addiction21]

vhatever wrote...

Mokinokaro wrote...

No innovation in JRPGs, really?

List them.

De je vu...

[Mokinokaro]

Here's big one: the ATB system (copied by a lot of companies, even definitely influenced the battle systems of Bioware's D&D RPGs and Dragon Age.)

Though, this guy sums up my thoughts on this whole thing. WRPGs don't innovate any more than JRPGs, really. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate are all fundamentally the same game with different combat systems, much like JRPGs.

Blue Dragon, Tales of Vesperia, Lost Odyssey, Persona 4 all only have as much in common as ME does to Dragon Age, really. Lumping all JRPGs or WRPGs together is just plain ignorance and stereotyping.

How about you list some "innovations" western RPGs have made and I'm not talking about swiping the combat system from one genre and tacking it onto an RPG as that's been done tons of times by games from both sides.

Really, the only big differences I see usually between western and eastern RPGs boil down to art style and method of narrative. Western RPGs tend to favour more player choice at the expense of a structured plot while JRPGs tend to more strictly define their characters, narrative wise, in order to tell their stories.

Ironically, ME gets pretty close to JRPGs when it comes to story structure. Shepard's already quite defined in regards to character, with dialogue trees and appearance customization making the major changes between each playthrough. Persona 4 does very similar in its story, right down to letting the player progress the sidequests at their own pace.

Games like Bethesda's almost need their own classification because they're extremely different from most RPGs due to their sandbox nature.

Most of the complaints I see about JRPGs come from people who simply don't like eastern or anime-influenced style.  Those people should really give something like Persona 4 a try.

Modifié par Mokinokaro, 18 février 2010 - 10:19 .

[Sean]

Wow, the people at SE must have huge egos to go and blame a whole hemisphere

imo I think that the best rpg companies in the world (so far anyways) are BioWare and Bethesda
and its because they make their games more free and you can choose what you want to do (to some level anyways)

[Mokinokaro]

They're not blaming a whole hemisphere, Toriyama's just saying that FFXIII's a different style than what most people in the west are playing.

And what he says about big open worlds being difficult to create a compelling story for is very true. Even ME2 puts some limits on where you can go for the sake of story.

It's actually very noticeable in Bethesda games:  stories are not their strong point; their ability to make worlds you can just get lost in is.

Modifié par Mokinokaro, 18 février 2010 - 10:23 .

[MightySword]

vhatever wrote...
Good for Suikoden 3. Do you consider that aspect to be common in RPGs? No. So it's not cliched. Suikoden wasn't the first to d it, either, but it's a rare enough feature to make it standout as more then a generic RPG.

No, it's not the only one, I already gave you three, and I can give you many more. But like I said the problem here is that people with an established stereotype many people simply don't know they exist, and as such they believe the mainstream is all there is of JRPG, which it is not. WRPG has games like BG, but it also has games like Planescape: Torment, and the important point is that they both great. Although in this case my example was to counter your hail of DA:O origin segment, I just wanted to inform you that JRPG also has the same thing, and they already predate DA:O. Now I'm not arguing that such system originate from which system came from which side first, and honestly I dont care, ideal is onething but execution is where the money at. Thumps up for DA:O and I absolutely like some of the origin, but if you're to hail that as an innovation, it wouldn't be too hard to give some credit to JRPG in other department. Yes, DA:O is an innovation in today trench among WRPG, and it's an innovation in execution, and it's good enough for me.

You ever seen the god damn item creation in UO? You could make everything you could possibly use in the world: boats, houses, dyes, spellbooks, castles, clothes, weapons, armors, chairs, tables, statues, poison, etc. There are already genres entirely devoted to "making towns". Why the hell wouldn't I just play a game tailored for that style of play instead of a half assed job of it in an RPG? And how is that innovative to copy someone/something else?

I don't recall any WRPG has a battle system like Valkyrie Chronicle, which originated from even an older JRPG series. And have you seen the item creation in Rogue Galaxy? Like I said it's not the idea, but the execution that's brilliant. Assemble your tool, line up your production chain, calculate the ram length, hook up the power cable, placing the material ...etc... some of complex recipe can take you up to 15-20 minutes to assemble the production line if you try to create  it the first time.

As to why there is making town? Because it's fun? Why it's innovative? Not because it's about making town that's for sure since like you said it's already done somewhere else. It's innovative because it was intergrated naturally and become part of the game seamlessly, and in the end provide a unique experience? Going by pure definition of RPG since the beginning of time why bother with character interaction and emotional attachement, RPG should have always be about gameplay. Why Bioware should bother to include romance plot and stuffs, isn't those better to leave to Dating Simulation games (we have those). Because it's fun when it's executed right, and when a wacky idea matured into a brilliant and unique execution that's enough to be a innovation for me. And really, this is just something Japanese people do as a culture, they love extras and side stuffs like this, not just in their RPG but other gerne as well, and not even just in their game. The fact whether you like such feature or not have nothing to do with the fact that it is there, which is what I'm getting at.


Bottom line is that it's clear you have a passion for WRPG, that's a good thing. You seem to have a dislike for JRPG, and that's ok too. But you also see to have a rather limited vision on JRPG, which is what I try to fix. I'm not here to argue, like I said I'm here to be informative. I don't think recognizing the merit of JRPG will somehow damage your appreciation of WRPG, just like in the very first post in this topic I already expressed my dislike of the current JRPG and ATM I'm embracing WRPG much tighter then JRPG, but that doesn't make me blinded of JRPG acheivement. Like I said, it's ok to dislike something, but do so for the right reason. And frankly, I just hate stereotype.


Just like anime, I think the majority of non-anime watchers believe that anime is stuffs that guy who don't get laid watch, and certainly there are anime that match such stereotype. But anime is more and beyond that, most of those people shut up after I show them Claymore. But then again, after that I usually have an encore followed by Shuffe! just to ****** them off, but I'll refrain from doing that here.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 février 2010 - 10:30 .

[vhatever]

Mokinokaro wrote...

Here's big one: the ATB system (copied by a lot of companies, even definitely influenced the battle systems of Bioware's D&D RPGs and Dragon Age.)

The ATB system? LOL. Having an attack/delay bar? I guess having it made VISIBLE to you was something that had not been done, but it had already been done, if you could see it or not. Even Daggorath had a "timed" sort of system. All the ATB is a stop gap between real time and turn based.

[the_one_54321]

This site breaks things down so much it's hard to find a whole lot. But I'm posting a few firsts that I was able to locate.
www.gameinnovation.org/
First non-linear game: Metroid.
First game with multiple ending points: Chrono Trigger.
First Console to offer DLC: Intelivision.
First 3D polygonal game: I, Robot.
First game with camera control options: I, Robot.
First with levels that change based on order of completion: Mega Man X.
First with Stat gains through usage: Final Fantasy II.