613 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyMoogle]

JKoopman wrote...

So..... would anyone else love to see a western-style RPG with a JRPG anime art style?

I've thought more than a few times how sweet Mass Effect would be as an anime.

Also @vhatever: Did a JRPG kill your mother and rape your father? What's with the stubborn animosity?

Eugh... no... I hate anime art style. Well, often. Sometimes it can be good.

One of the reasons that FF art is so revered is that, apart from FF7, it DOESN'T just take the easy road and use an anime art style, despite what raging haters of the series who don't actually know what it looks like might say. Seriously, the spiky hair/giant sword thing? It applies to ONE game in the series. Two at most.

Rather than see a Western-style RPG take on an anime art style (*shudder*) or even an FF art style () I'd just like to see FF take on the occasional bit of choice in dialogue (like older ones did) and NEVER do this stupid completely linear, no backtracking thing they've done in XIII ever again.

[Zanallen]

God, this stupid thread hasn't been locked yet? The short and skinny of it is that both JRPGs and WRPGs are viable forms of entertainment. People have different tastes and like different things. So let's cut the whining, hating and fangasming.

[Gabey5]

ehhh jrpgs have been falling off for years

[LordLothars]

It's basically that western reviews are stuck on certain games, FFXIII will be an amazing game and probably will either outsell Mass Effect 2 or be pretty much same amount of sales.



Both Games are great and I can't wait for FFXIII to be released here.

[Reiisha]

Most Eastern developers seem to be stuck in a rutt. Their games have barely changed since they got their formulae down nearly 10 years ago. Square seems hesitant to do anything but what they've always been doing, and they have suffered for it. Rather than evolve Final Fantasy or even create (proper) new games, they keep milking the same cow with the same gameplay over and over. FF games have barely changed at all since the first one i've seen (FF6), even the plots are quite similar. Same goes for MMO's, which adopt a virtually identical grindhouse style of gameplay (yes, even worse than Western MMO's), Aion being the latest example of this.



While Western developers do have their own (massive) flaws, they do try to use every trick in the book to keep their games (looking) fresh and new, and evolve them over time. Bioware is a good example of this. Going from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 2 is something i would never see Square doing.



And besides, the one game Square is actually allowed to milk, they've already stated it will never be remade. A few years ago they even did the 'cease and decist' thing to a UT2004 TC, remaking Chrono Trigger (there's still a trailer for that floating around: ), but i think Square got pissed off because they couldn't do any better themselves.

[HolyMoogle]

Reiisha wrote...

Most Eastern developers seem to be stuck in a rutt. Their games have barely changed since they got their formulae down nearly 10 years ago. Square seems hesitant to do anything but what they've always been doing, and they have suffered for it. Rather than evolve Final Fantasy or even create (proper) new games, they keep milking the same cow with the same gameplay over and over. FF games have barely changed at all since the first one i've seen (FF6), even the plots are quite similar. Same goes for MMO's, which adopt a virtually identical grindhouse style of gameplay (yes, even worse than Western MMO's), Aion being the latest example of this.

While Western developers do have their own (massive) flaws, they do try to use every trick in the book to keep their games (looking) fresh and new, and evolve them over time. Bioware is a good example of this. Going from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 2 is something i would never see Square doing.

I can't stand most JRPGs, but that is REALLY harsh. If you play FFVII through to XIII, they bare almost no resemblance to each other, neither in looks or play style.

Try FFXII, it's like Dragon Age minus the overhead view option, but much more polished. X, however, is your classic turn-based battler. Aesthetics are mixed up all the time, from the very ancient (X) to the medieval (IX) to the freaky/crazy futuristic (XIII). And it's never a generic fantasy or futuristic, it's always tipped sideways a few degrees and made unique.

They've also tried:
Real time combat which is a mix of Zelda and Devil May Cry (Kingdom Hearts)
Turn-based strategy (Final Fantasy Tactics/Tactics Advance)
Real-time strategy (Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings)
MMO-combat (XI, XIV)
Absolutely impossible to categorise (Vagrant Story)

I'd say that's a pretty rich variety. Final Fantasy and Square Enix aren't perfect, but unchanging they aren't. I'll admit that the evil coporation/empire/existential force element is a repetitive part of FF, but it kinda also applies to all of Bioware's RPGs... and most RPGs in general...

[the_one_54321]

HolyMoogle wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
So..... would anyone else love to see a western-style RPG with a JRPG anime art style?

I've thought more than a few times how sweet Mass Effect would be as an anime.

Also @vhatever: Did a JRPG kill your mother and rape your father? What's with the stubborn animosity?

Eugh... no... I hate anime art style. Well, often. Sometimes it can be good.

Mass Effect has already been done in anime art style. It's called Mass Effect Gallaxies.

Also, people should take a look at the art that inspired Final Fantasy. See if they think it's "anime" in the slightest.

[the_one_54321]

HolyMoogle wrote...
Try FFXII, it's like Dragon Age minus the overhead view option, but much more polished. X, however, is your classic turn-based battler. Aesthetics are mixed up all the time, from the very ancient (X) to the medieval (IX) to the freaky/crazy futuristic (XIII). And it's never a generic fantasy or futuristic, it's always tipped sideways a few degrees and made unique.

They've also tried:
Real time combat which is a mix of Zelda and Devil May Cry (Kingdom Hearts)
Turn-based strategy (Final Fantasy Tactics/Tactics Advance)
Real-time strategy (Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings)
MMO-combat (XI, XIV)
Absolutely impossible to categorise (Vagrant Story)

I'd say that's a pretty rich variety. Final Fantasy and Square Enix aren't perfect, but unchanging they aren't. I'll admit that the evil coporation/empire/existential force element is a repetitive part of FF, but it kinda also applies to all of Bioware's RPGs... and most RPGs in general...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/221442.bin?size=404x272

Honestly "it's like DA:O" is exactly what I thought when I saw the "tactics" option in the overhead menu. Well what I really thought was "this is like FFXII" but either way it was a compliment because that was one of the coolest new combat systems I'd ever seen. Programing your party members FTW.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 19 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[mxfox408]

Wel it seem that the day all game developers become too big for thier bridges and start ignoring the reviewers and gamers is usually when they Fail. i mean look at square for example even Blizzard ent. is loosing customers due to boring content and lack of challanging content. People dont critisize cuz they hate it they critisize cuz they want to see more and when devs ignore it and downplay it is the end of the line for them.

Modifié par mxfox408, 19 février 2010 - 03:32 .

[Gorn Kregore]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Also, people should take a look at the art that inspired Final Fantasy. See if they think it's "anime" in the slightest.

The hair, and the super omg abnormally attractive girls.

Modifié par Gorn Kregore, 19 février 2010 - 03:37 .

[RetrOldSchool]

Off topic: There's a lot of negativity towards JRPG's on the boards, some of it is justified (about the decline in current gen JRPG's), some of it is pure subjective opinions and some of it I really can't understand.



I can understand the concern about lack of freedom, though I think it's important to remember that freedom in some WRPG's are confined to the sidequests. For example in Fallout 3, the main quest is linear. You have an enormous amount of freedom in the game world, but the main quest is totally linear, but it feels a bit un focused. Don't get me wrong though, I loved F3.



IMO Bioware are the best dev to combine freedom of choice and story, but I like to mix things up so to me it''s a good thing that all games doesn't use the same formula. I like to play an open world RPG like F3 and I also like to play a linear JRPG with great story like Suikoden III or Persona 4 (though P4 had a lot of choices for an JRPG, especially in conversations to gain better Personas).



On topic: I think it's a bad thing when dev's get overconfident, just like Peter Molyneaux (anyone seen the interview about Fable 2 where he says it had incredible features, but people didn't use them...? I guess I played a different game).

[JKoopman]

craigdolphin wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So..... would anyone else love to see a western-style RPG with a JRPG anime art style?

I've thought more than a few times how sweet Mass Effect would be as an anime.

Erk...ye gods...please no. Just....no.

You may now have given me a facial twitch.

I personally have never played a JRPG solely because of the art style. Anime is the visual equivalent of bulk high fructose corn syrup IMO. I would sooner eat brussel sprouts than play such a game. Liver even. Heck, even tripe and onions!

I'm happy you enjoy it but please, for the love of all that is holy, do not poison the last bastion of great gaming by wishing anime on WRPG's. C'mon....there seems to be a new JRPG released about monthly, if not weekly. Isn't that enough anime for you? WRPGs seem to be released maybe 1 or 2 a year. And some of those seem to be heading towards FPS crossovers anymore. The day I see an anime gray warden bopping its way across ferelden, with spoonfuls of adolescent angst and spikey hair, is likely the day I quit gaming. And anime shepherd? *shudder* 

Sorry. You might have triggered a slightly visceral reaction/rant there.

I love how people act like spikey hair is some kind of anime RPG staple because ONE character in ONE game had it. The only anime RPG I can immediately recall that had spikey hair was Final Fantasy 7 (and we all know exactly which character is being referred to when the concept is brought up, don't we?). They even toned Cloud's hair way the hell down in Advent Children and Crisis Core. It was more an engine limitation than anything else in FF7.

Play a game in the Tales series or Star Ocean or Xenogears or Breath of Fire or any other popular JRPG (including any other Final Fantasy but VII) and nary a hair spike will be seen, so how anime and spikey hair became so closely associated is beyond me.

Besides, there basically is a Mass Effect anime already. It's called Galaxies. And I don't recall anyone complaining. Unfortunately, it's nothing more than a cheap iPhone app that has very little in the way of story, gameplay or depth. I'd love to see a full-length ME (or just western) RPG done in a similar artistic style and I fail to see how that would "poison" the series or WRPGs in general.

[Master Smurf]

For the love of space - where the fcuk is the end of line on this Woo.



I guess when they are kissin up it goes on forever!!!

[Weiser_Cain]

Complaining about art styles misses the point by miles. I like both. That's not the difference between the two. With "western style" RPG's I feel like I am the protagonist and with most J-RPG's it feel like I'm just watching a movie with interactive bits that don't really matter.

[Burdokva]

I haven't played much JRPGs, but honestly, I can't stand them. It's the art design that bothers me. The huge hairdos, the ridiculously oversized weapons, the strange and (at least me) completely incoherent worlds they take place in. Both from an artistic and scientific point of view, it's a total fail.



That's just me personal opinion, though.

[Weiser_Cain]

Burdokva wrote...

I haven't played much JRPGs, but honestly, I can't stand them. It's the art design that bothers me. The huge hairdos, the ridiculously oversized weapons, the strange and (at least me) completely incoherent worlds they take place in. Both from an artistic and scientific point of view, it's a total fail.

That's just me personal opinion, though.

Element Zero.

[MerinTB]

Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?

Bethesda may have come a long way with Fallout 3 IMO, but they are far from story tellers. They are great at designing a big area to explore at your leisure, some interesting crafting gameplay mechanics, and mediocre side quests (including one bigger mediocre side-quest that stands in for a main story.)

But even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company making CRPGs, who does that leave in the last decade?

Troika failed financially and folded years ago. Obsidian COULD be a powerhouse, perhaps, but has been stuck in a rut at Bioware's clean-up boys (here, Obsidian, this game was successful - use our stuff and whip out a sequel) but maybe Alpha Protocol will be the start of something for them. Blizzard was one of the royalty of RTS, not RPG, and they've not released a CRPG (unless you count WOW, but for sake of argument let's just ignore MMO's for now) since Diablo 2 a decade ago.
Who else has released more than maybe a couple RPG's in the last ten years? Irrational with System Shock 2 (2000) and Freedom Force? Sir-Tech, with some Jagged Alliance 2 expansions and Wizardry 8, closed over 7 years ago.

And then there's a bunch of companies with one-offs.

Where are the Capcom's, the Square's, the Bandai's, Konami's, tri-Ace, TOSE, Nihon Falcom .... I could go on for the sheer number of companies still in existence putting out numerous, numerous JPRGs.

Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

Modifié par MerinTB, 19 février 2010 - 05:02 .

[mxfox408]

I agree with you completely but the top dog eventually falls and I hate to seem devolopers who were awsome in the past fail but it pissed me off when the developers close thier mind to what thier customers say about it and just say screw the public.

[JKoopman]

Very few of the arguments leveraged against JRPGs for being "stale" and not "evolving" are factually incorrect (JRPGs have changed and evolved in many ways, just not in the same ways as WRPGs). And the few that hold water can also be applied to WRPGs as well (whether fans of WRPGs want to admit them or not). To borrow from another thread on the same subject, I feel like the vast majority of negative sentiment towards JRPGs in the west stems from a sense that "those slanty-eyed Japs can't do anything right. USA! USA!"

You hear people talk (even BioWare founders) about how WRPGs have evolved "beyond" JRPGs or are "higher" entertainment. What they fail to grasp is that WRPGs haven't moved beyond JRPGs, they've just moved in a different direction and all their arguments amount to is that JRPGs are not WRPGs, which they've never claimed or tried to be. Frankly, it just comes off as elitist and snobbish.

Some people like their linear stories and (for the most part, there are quite a few exceptions) turn-based combat and some people like their open worlds and dialog trees. It doesn't make one better or more evolved than the other any more than FPSs are better or more evolved than RTSs. WRPGs and JRPGs may as well be different genres and their goals in terms of gameplay and storytelling are entirely different.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[spernus]

MerinTB wrote...

Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?

Bethesda may have come a long way with Fallout 3 IMO, but they are far from story tellers. They are great at designing a big area to explore at your leisure, some interesting crafting gameplay mechanics, and mediocre side quests (including one bigger mediocre side-quest that stands in for a main story.)

But even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company making, who does that leave in the last decade?

Troika failed financially and folded years ago. Obsidian COULD be a powerhouse, perhaps, but has been stuck in a rut at Bioware's clean-up boys (here, Obsidian, this game was successful - use our stuff and whip out a sequel) but maybe Alpha Protocol will be the start of something for them. Blizzard was one of the royalty of RTS, not RPG, and they've not released a CRPG (unless you count WOW, but for sake of argument let's just ignore MMO's for now) since Diablo 2 a decade ago.
Who else has released more than maybe a couple RPG's in the last ten years? Irrational with System Shock 2 (2000) and Freedom Force? Sir-Tech, with some Jagged Alliance 2 expansions and Wizardry 8, closed over 7 years ago.

And then there's a bunch of companies with one-offs.

Where are the Capcom's, the Square's, the Bandai's, Konami's, tri-Ace, TOSE, Nihon Falcom .... I could go on for the sheer number of companies still in existence putting out numerous, numerous JPRGs.

Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

You forgot Cdprojekt which hold a lot of promise with their first game: The Witcher.

As far as Japan goes,they do release more rpg and most of them are mediocre at best.The average jrpg is not even worth mentionning,but this is pretty much what's missing in the west since you have good/great rpgs and crap rpgs.

Given the success of Bioware and Bethesda,I think we will start seeing more wrpg in the coming years from new developers or studios.

[MerinTB]

spernus wrote...

You forgot Cdprojekt which hold a lot of promise with their first game: The Witcher.

As far as Japan goes,they do release more rpg and most of them are mediocre at best.The average jrpg is not even worth mentionning,but this is pretty much what's missing in the west since you have good/great rpgs and crap rpgs.

Given the success of Bioware and Bethesda,I think we will start seeing more wrpg in the coming years from new developers or studios.

I purposefully didn't list company's that had one CRPG under their belt, even if it was successful or big.  Ion Storm had Deus Ex (and are gone, I know, but still.)
Lionhead has Fable 1 and 2.
Pluto 13, which was Piranha Bytes, has Gothic and Risen but I know little about these games and, arguably, if I can't claim that Obsidian is Black Isle and/oror Troika, and I can't claim that inXile is Interplay and/or Troika, then I don't think that Pluto 13 can be considered Piranha Bytes.
Definitions of game company aside, Gothic, Gothic 2, Gothic 3 and Risen (if you count all four) could mark another developer of successful CRPGs.  Potentially.

Modifié par MerinTB, 19 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[RetrOldSchool]

spernus wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.
.......
Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

You forgot Cdprojekt which hold a lot of promise with their first game: The Witcher.

As far as Japan goes,they do release more rpg and most of them are mediocre at best.The average jrpg is not even worth mentionning,but this is pretty much what's missing in the west since you have good/great rpgs and crap rpgs.

Given the success of Bioware and Bethesda,I think we will start seeing more wrpg in the coming years from new developers or studios.

I was really looking forward to The Witcher coming to Xbox (Rise of the white wolf i think it was) but as far as i know, they have put it on hold.
Apart from Bioware and Bethesda there has been some other WRPG's though the ones I come to think of have been sub par: 
Two Worlds
Sacred 2
Divinity II
Risen
Rise of the argonauts

[Heliosas]

Last good game to come from SquareSoft was FF-X. Before it changed to Square-Enix. Its gone down-hill from there.



Square-Enix Europe has absorbed Eidos into itself, so we may still get some good games out of that part of the company.

[vhatever]

You can't compare the longevity of game studios as some sort of metric on the quality of games produced, or anything else for that matter, really, other than the dynamic "up and down" economy of the USA. Get this red herring garvage out of here. The stagnation of JRPG is probably a direct result of their crony capitilistic model that keeps proping up "something that used to work, so it should keep working". models Japan has been artifically keeping all sorts of industries alive by subsidizing them by the government.

[MerinTB]

I think I'm officially done even paying attention to vhatever.



Seriously, anything that doesn't agree with vhatever's preconceived world view is deem "not legit", "not real" and now "garbage."



Yes, I am done reasoning with vhatever as there is no reasoning with the stubbornly unreasonable.