613 réponses à ce sujet

[Baron Of Doom]

Well the thing is too, Western-style RPGs are more the true RPGs. A true RPG, you make a character based on who you want them to be, what you want them to do, like in Fallout, Oblvion, even Mass Effect. With JRPGs, you have a set character with a set story, you're playing a pre-determined role. Now I'm not knocking JRPGs, I like them too, but if one wants to get down to it, look at the original RPG. A little game called Dungeons and Dragons.

[dfjdejulio]

the_one_54321 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
The first non-linear game was not metroid. It mighthave been the first side scrolling, console game that was non-linear.

Chronotrigger is definitely not the first game with multiple endings. Though it definetly took the multiple endings thing much further than had been done. again, perhaps this is the first multiple ending on consoles. That would be interesting if the FF2 skill thing is correct. I don't recall that in FF2(probably the FF game i've played most no less), and I'm drawing a blank on other games before it that had it. I'll have to think on that one.

Right. I'm sorry. This university compiling data on this stuff must be wrong. You'd better be sure to let them know.

It might be a matter of defining terms and scope.

Metroid was from 1986.  Chrono Trigger was from 1995.

By what definition is Elite (from 1984) something other than non-linear?  Or Starflight (also from 1986)?

By what definition does Myst (from 1993) not have multiple endings?

[Zanallen]

vhatever wrote...

No one cares what your ass thinks Zanallen. And you cry about when you see I'm infinitely more intelligent or knowledgable about anything outside of your complete expertise of shoving one's own head up their ass.

I can't spend my whole day teaching people basic economics. I don't have to prove the moon is not made out of cheese. I do not have accept bogus claims by jingoist asians and asiaphiles who would rather invent history than discuss it.

See? Bad troll has entered attack mode.

I also believe that it is confusing me for another poster.

Personally, I couldn't care less what sort of sales or reviews that FFXIII gets. I get a free rental game each week at Blockbuster video and plan to use it to try out the game. If I like it, I will probably buy it. However, I will not allow the opinions of others to taint my own.

[Ryzaki]

OMFG I just listened to Ventus' Theme in KH BBS



OMG soooo sad.

NOTHING any Wrpg game had for game music had for music has ever made me cry so hard.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
Bah its close enough.

Also, I hate Zack. Stoooooopid Zack. Cloud is the hero, not you. <_<

[the_one_54321]

Zanallen wrote...
See? Bad troll has entered attack mode.

After that, I agree with you 100%.

[KyoZ]

the_one_54321 wrote...

KyoZ wrote...
If you look at the reviews which complained at
Final Fantasy XIII, the main things they were complaining at was it's
linearity and it's lack of side quests. Which is exactly what a western
RPG does have.

That's true. Linearity is what people play FF for. No one wants to see multiple endings or optional plot lines in an FF game. They want to see another Square story. That's the only reason people keep on playing them, to see the new Square stories.

Indeed.

People arguing over which is better in terms of wrpgs and jrpgs is stupid. Both are great in their own aspects. One one hand wrpgs allow you to choose your path, this consequently means that the detail of your choices will be degraded, think jack of all trades, master of none. On the other hand, Jrpgs go that extra mile giving you more detail in the story and characters, however at the cost of allowing choices.

I believe what Motomu Toriyama was trying to say is that they're basing their reviews not only on JRPG criteria but WRPG critira too, which indeed is a tad unfair on the game. Final Fantasy games have never been open or had a lot of side quests. He did word it very poorly though.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Bah its close enough.

Also, I hate Zack. Stoooooopid Zack. Cloud is the hero, not you. <_<

*Gasps* HOW DARE YOU! Zack is win! Cloud...is midly irritating. And Zack is cuter 

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
*Gasps* HOW DARE YOU! Zack is win! Cloud...is midly irritating. And Zack is cuter 

This relationship is over! *runs away crying*

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
*Gasps* HOW DARE YOU! Zack is win! Cloud...is midly irritating. And Zack is cuter 

This relationship is over! *runs away crying*

Fine! I didn't want you anyways! *storms off angrily*

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
*Gasps* HOW DARE YOU! Zack is win! Cloud...is midly irritating. And Zack is cuter 

This relationship is over! *runs away crying*

Fine! I didn't want you anyways! *storms off angrily*

*sniffle* We should make up. How about this. Wasn't the end of FFX just beautifully tragic? 

[dfjdejulio]

MerinTB wrote...

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?

Lately, sure.  But they weren't the first company to make good RPGs.

Remember "Ultima 4"?  Remember "A Mind Forever Voyaging"?  Remember "Wasteland"?  Remember "Wizardry"?  Remember "The Bard's Tale"?  Remember "Secret of the Silver Blades"?  Remember "Eye of the Beholder"?  Remember "Fallout"?  Remember "Planescape: Torment" (which used a BioWare engine but was not by BioWare)?

And then there's games where the genre gets blurred.  Some folks don't call "Mass Effect 2" an RPG anymore, because some of the RPG elements are streamlined to the point of being difficult to recognize, and shooter elements have been added.  But if you call ME2 an RPG, what do you call "Deus Ex"?  Or "BioShock"?

That said, there certainly have been dry spells in the WRPG market, no doubt.  And Bioware has persisted through the most recent one or two.  Kudos for them!  Let's hope EA can refrain from destroying 'em.  With luck, Activision's recent admission of making so many strategic mistakes recently (at DICE 2010 in Vegas -- eg. picking Red Octane over Harmonix, passing on The Sims) will help EA realize how easy it would be for them to screw this up.  Let's hope they take the warning.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
*Gasps* HOW DARE YOU! Zack is win! Cloud...is midly irritating. And Zack is cuter 

This relationship is over! *runs away crying*

Fine! I didn't want you anyways! *storms off angrily*

*sniffle* We should make up. How about this. Wasn't the end of FFX just beautifully tragic? 

Truth. Then they killed it with FFX-2.

Bah here for friendship sake!

[dfjdejulio]

Baron Of Doom wrote...

Well the thing is too, Western-style RPGs are more the true RPGs. A true RPG, you make a character based on who you want them to be, what you want them to do, like in Fallout, Oblvion, even Mass Effect. With JRPGs, you have a set character with a set story, you're playing a pre-determined role. Now I'm not knocking JRPGs, I like them too, but if one wants to get down to it, look at the original RPG. A little game called Dungeons and Dragons.

Yes, let's look at D&D.

Go ahead and pull out an old first-edition D&D module.  Take your time, go find one.  I'll wait.

Okay.  Turn to the back of the module.  What do you see?

Why look!  (Odds are) it's a set of pre-generated characters that you can hand to people so they can dive right in and start playing immediately!

This was very commonly done with a large percentage of 1st edition (and older) D&D modules, because it was core to how RPGA tournament play worked, waaaay back before the concept of the "living" RPGA campaign existed.

Whether the original characters were player-constructed or were provided premade as part of the game is not what makes the difference between an RPG and non-RPG.  Even the granddaddy of all RPGs, the original D&D, actually did it both ways.  Both ways are equally valid implementations of the RPG concept.  Different from each other, but neither is more "true" to what it means to be an RPG.

[MerinTB]

addiction21 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Prove what? I have not made any claims of wrpg or jrpgs supremacy. You have and others have provided evidence but all you can say is "no that does not count".
Like merin I will just not feed you anymore. Have a nice day.

Psst, vhatever is just a bad troll. If you ignore it, it'll go away.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt before slaping a label on them.

Ditto.

I even backed up one of vhatever's statements that were true that somone else was disputing, because vhatever was right in that case.

I really go out of my way to try and reason with people who can express themselves at least decently and at least seem to be trying to hold an honest discussion.  It gets to a point, though, when you realize you are wasting your time.

[MarloMarlo]

MerinTB wrote...
Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?
[...]
Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are? What perspective needs to be pointed out? Like you said, BioWare is huge. It's pretty much the workhorse of Western RPGs. Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up with your argument.

And then you brush off outliers for reasons other than the quality of the games. Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not examples of great Western RPGs because there are less Western RPGs than JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?

As for Fallout 3 -- there are a lot of subjective arguments that can be made but don't matter because they aren't going to change anyone's minds, anyway.  That said, it at least has the "RP" part of RPG, which is more than can be said about a lot of JRPGs (I can't think of a single JRPG that I've read about that has role playing in it). Subjective arguments, like having better stories, doesn't change that.

[RetrOldSchool]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
get into FF7.

And I sent you a friend request. That's like inviting the enemy into your home. I will never be so naive again!

Wow, I didnt think you could not get into FFVII, I still have to youtube the orchestrated main theme from time to time:
http://www.youtube.c...c&v=jzz5cVt70j8

And I still get shivers at 1:17...

FF VII was the sole reason I traded in my Saturn for a PS1. 
As was KOTOR the reason I bought an Xbox... And ME was the reason I got an Xbox 360...
Damn you Square and BW for costing me a fortune in consoles 


Now if Atlus makes Persona 5 as an PS3 exclusive, I will have to get that too.... It'll be worth it though.

[MerinTB]

dfjdejulio wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?

Lately, sure.  But they weren't the first company to make good RPGs.

Remember "Ultima 4"?  Remember "A Mind Forever Voyaging"?  Remember "Wasteland"?  Remember "Wizardry"?  Remember "The Bard's Tale"?  Remember "Secret of the Silver Blades"?  Remember "Eye of the Beholder"?  Remember "Fallout"?  Remember "Planescape: Torment" (which used a BioWare engine but was not by BioWare)?

If you quoted more than just my first line I'd not have to requote where the thrust of my post was looking -
"But even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company
making CRPGs, who does that leave in the last decade?"

Not only do I constantly personally mention almost all the games you listed (btb, Mass Effect uses the Unreal engine, VTM: Bloodlines uses the Half-Life 2 engine, and The Witcher uses the Aurora engine from NWN - but you don't credit the game engine creators for the games build using said engine, so Planescape (like Icewind Dale) is all Black Isle, baby!) but all the games you list fall outside of the "last decade" margin I was using for my point.  Unless you mean the last  Wizardry.

My point was that if you take away Bioware (and maybe Bethesda) you are left with WHO in the last 10 years as a company that has made more than a couple CRPGs that is still in business?  You can't find many (Piranha Bytes, maybe) and what you find aren't the biggest hits for the most part.

Over on the JRPG side you have multiple companies still in business that have released multiple, multiple JRPGs.

That's not a quality judgement.  It's a success judgement - there is obviously a Japanese (and world) market for JRPGs that doesn't QUITE exist for "Western" CRPGs.  If there was a bigger market for Troika's games or Ion Storm's games or Iron Lore's games those companies wouldn't have folded for lack of funding.
I'm afraid that inXile (which, honestly, has yet to produce something worthwhile but has the potential to) and Obsidian are varying degrees away from folding themselves (true Wasteland sequel and Alpha Protocol, please happen and be successful!)

And again, this isn't me siding with one over the other.  I tend to prefer Bioware Games to Square Enix for CRPGs, certainly.  But my preferences do not preclude me from acknowledging facts.

And then there's games where the genre gets blurred.  Some folks don't call "Mass Effect 2" an RPG anymore, because some of the RPG elements are streamlined to the point of being difficult to recognize, and shooter elements have been added.  But if you call ME2 an RPG, what do you call "Deus Ex"?  Or "BioShock"?

I choose to ignore my personal views on what does or does not equate a CRPG an let the industry label it.  Hence Deus Ex, Bioshock (and Diablo) count as CRPGs. *shrug*  Action RPG's, sure, but that's a category now.

Modifié par MerinTB, 20 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[MerinTB]

MarloMarlo wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.

Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?
[...]
Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are? What perspective needs to be pointed out? Like you said, BioWare is huge. It's pretty much the workhorse of Western RPGs. Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up with your argument.

And then you brush off outliers for reasons other than the quality of the games. Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not examples of great Western RPGs because there are less Western RPGs than JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?

As for Fallout 3 -- there are a lot of subjective arguments that can be made but don't matter because they aren't going to change anyone's minds, anyway.  That said, it at least has the "RP" part of RPG, which is more than can be said about a lot of JRPGs (I can't think of a single JRPG that I've read about that has role playing in it). Subjective arguments, like having better stories, doesn't change that.

Read a bit deeper and please stop treating me like I'm some JRPG fanatic attacking Western CRPGs.

I am responding to the meme spreading in this thread that the JRPG market is dying and the Western CRPG market is booming.  If you remove Bioware and Bethesda, there is almost no Western CRPG market to speak of.  If you remove Square Enix and (pick one other, I'll say Capcom) from the JRPG market you still have tons of JRPGs being made.

This is not a quality argument.  This is a "which market is doing better" argument.

Again, like I JUST wrote, I personally prefer the Gold Box games and Fallouts and Dragon Age and such to Final Fantasy and Golden Sun and such -
but the personal preference doesn't make the fact that Final Fantasy, one of the best selling JRPGs, habitually outsells the very best of Western CRPGs (heck, it takes something like Halo or Call of Duty to match or beat FF numbers.)

You can choose to not care about these facts - I don't let them decide what games I buy, either - but you should let it filter how much you praise one side's "winning" over the other.  If you mean in your personal taste, cool, you aren't going to change other people's minds based on your preferences.

The perspective is this - for everyone who keeps trying to imply that the JRPG market is dying and the Western market is booming, I suggest looking at how many companies in the last ten years in West that made CRPGs have folded as compared to how many in Japan keep cranking out JRPGs for financial success.

Once more - this isn't a quality argument.  If you want a quality argument, that's cool, but don't tell me the markets argument is wrong because it doesn't match your quality argument.

EDIT = Also, the cliche is "the exception that proves the rule" and in this case, Bioware's screaming success compared to almost all other Western CRPG makers (again, Bethesda can be considered of Bioware success), just shows how UNSUCCESSFUL FINANCIALLY most Western CRPGs are.
I wish that weren't true.  I'd love a bunch more Troika games, a slew more Freedom Forces, that Interplay had never ditched it's RPG division and basically ended Black Isle - but that's reality.

Meanwhile Square is like a mini-EA gobbling up other companies.  Whereas EA gobbled up Bioware.  You know, just saying.

Modifié par MerinTB, 19 février 2010 - 10:39 .

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
...

It does boggle the mind how a lot of BioWare fans flat out refuse to admit that Square is stupendously successful. Because Square is stupendously successful.

(for example, you don't see any of BioWares franchises having the Tokyo Phil Harmonic holding concerts specifically in tribute to their soundtracks)

Modifié par the_one_54321, 19 février 2010 - 11:05 .

[Ryzaki]

...One...now you should know that Square has awesome soundtracks. XD



KH for the WIN!!!!



Seriously I never played a WRPG where I listened to the music (actually LISTENED to the music) and then had to run to get the soundtrack.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
...One...now you should know that Square has awesome soundtracks. XD

Yoko Kanno and Yuki Kajiura are their only rivals.

[RetrOldSchool]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...One...now you should know that Square has awesome soundtracks. XD

Yoko Kanno and Yuki Kajiura are their only rivals.

I'd go with Motoi Sakuraba too.
EDIT: he has made a lot of Square themes as well though.

Modifié par RetrOldSchool, 19 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[Ryzaki]

RetrOldSchool wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...One...now you should know that Square has awesome soundtracks. XD

Yoko Kanno and Yuki Kajiura are their only rivals.

I'd go with Motoi Sakuraba too.

Truth.

Honestly though I thought I was the only one who found 99% of the music in WRPG bland and forgetful. Honestly that makes me sad. I can't even think of any time that I heard the background music in a WRPG and gasped remembered the music and started hunting it down like I often do for JRPGs.

[vhatever]

And all the asian MMOs are much better than the western MMOs because there are 42309754309574230975942305723507 million of them and 95% of them are completely clones with different names. They must be good then, right?



What an idiotic argument.