613 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

Some games just flat out suck.

Sure, they have the potential to be awesome. In the end however, they sucked.

Just look at Fable 2.

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[Ratsandchildren]

I've lost all respect for sqeenix.

First off, they said it would be impossible to render towns in HD, which is complete bull**** (GTA IV anybody?) then they go and say that open worlds ruin an RPG's story.

Well I don't know about you guys but Dragon Quest VIII is the greatest JRPG I have ever played.

[Ryzaki]

Ratsandchildren wrote...

I've lost all respect for sqeenix.

First off, they said it would be impossible to render towns in HD, which is complete bull**** (GTA IV anybody?) then they go and say that open worlds ruin an RPG's story.

Well I don't know about you guys but Dragon Quest VIII Persona 4 is the greatest JRPG I have ever played.

Fix'd.

XD

[Mokinokaro]

First off, they said it would be impossible to render towns in HD, which is complete bull**** (GTA IV anybody?) then they go and say that open worlds ruin an RPG's story.

They said believable towns.   And GTA IV isn't a great example since the entire game takes place in that one city and you don't really interact with NPCs outside of the story.

And FFXIII does have towns.   It's just that they're not shop/quest hubs like they were in previous games (except for a certain one you visit near the end.)

I don't think they want to try and touch traditional RPG towns until they are sure it can be done right.   FFXIII didn't need that kind of towns, so it doesn't have them.

[MarloMarlo]

MerinTB wrote...
Read a bit deeper and please stop treating me like I'm some JRPG fanatic attacking Western CRPGs.

Read a bit deeper? How about you read your own argument.

And how am I treating you like a JRPG fanatic? You made a terrible argument and I pointed it out. If you want proof of that, just take my entire post. Whereas your argument for what you were "really" arguing about only exists after the criticism and doesn't fit the premise of your post, which was "Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are."

That's supposed to be a response to a supposed meme about the JRPG market dying and the Western RPG market booming rather than a quality argument? Really? Going on to point out that guys at Bethesda  "...are far from story tellers. They are great at designing a big area to explore at your leisure, some interesting crafting gameplay mechanics, and mediocre side quests..." is something I can get a "which market is doing better" argument out of if I just read a bit deeper?

That you follow it up with arguments that don't follow doesn't suddently make your post about something else. All it does it make it an invalid argument. It would be like saying "Everyone keeps pointing out that Obama was born in Hawaii, but he was really born in Kenya" and following that up with his plots to disarm Americans so the Kenyans can invade before arguing "Scott Brown won a senate seat," and then claiming that you're not a crazy birther or some other variation of a crazy conspiracy theorist because what you were actually aruging, if I would just read deeper, is that the Democrats no longer have a filibuster-proof majority.

MerinTB wrote...
If you want a quality argument, that's cool, but don't tell me the markets argument is wrong because it doesn't match your quality argument.

I'm telling you that your markets argument doesn't match your quality argument. And it's not my responsibility to know what you want your actual argument was supposedly supposed to be after you made a completely different argument that doesn't work.

It's your own fault if you present your case in a completely wrong way. So don't tell me to read deeper into something that only exists in your supposed intentions, or to not make an argument I'm not even making.

[MerinTB]

MarloMarlo wrote...
nitpicks and takes out of context

You can pick apart anyone's arguments if you take certain things they say and ignore the rest.

Let me give you an example from what you wrote -

MarloMarlo wrote...
I'm telling you that your markets argument doesn't match your quality argument. And it's not my responsibility to know what you want your actual argument was supposedly supposed to be after you made a completely different argument that doesn't work.

So I made a quality argument?
But wait -

MarloMarlo originally wrote...
you brush off outliers for reasons other than the quality of the games

So I don't make a quality argument?
Which is it?

Want another example of taking what you say out of context to make you seem incoherent?

MarloMarlo wrote (in immediate chronological order)...
And how am I treating you like a JRPG fanatic? (...) If you want proof of that, just take my entire post.

You know, I agree.  Your post as a whole showed that you were treating me like I was bashing WRPG's in favor of JRPGs.  That's absolutely how I took it.

---

Seriously now, you take my whole original post in context it holds together.  I'm sorry you are missing that.  But let me take my topic sentence (not my lead-in) and my concluding sentence.

MerinTB's topic sentence was...
Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?

MerinTB's concluding sentence was...
Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

And everything inbetween was speaking to how successful one market was, looking at companies continuing to produce more and more RPGs, as compared to another. 

Did I comment on the quality of the games being made?  Sure.  Did that make my argument one of quality?  No, as I never compared Western CRPGs quality to JRPGs quality.  But that's where YOU moved the goalposts on your critiques.

Your ORIGINAL critiques can be summed up with this quotes from you AND BASED ON what you quoted from me-
first, what you quoted from me-

Quoting MarloMarlo quoting me...
MerinTB wrote...
Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are.
Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?
[...]
Some perspective is nice. Bioware is so popular and huge because it  basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

That's EXACTLY what you chose to quote and comment on initially.
EXACTLY.
Funny how that's what I'm, yet again, pointing to as my point.  But I'll get back to that.

What was your ORIGINAL critique of what you quoted from me?  Here's some telling quotes -

MarloMarlo wrote...
If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are? What perspective needs to be pointed out? Like you said, BioWare is huge.
It's pretty much the workhorse of Western RPGs. Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up with your argument.

You are directly addressing my point (Bioware shouldn't be used as an example of Western CRPGs being more innovative, creative, successful, etc, than JRPGs as it is an OUTLIER - it's the exception that proves the rule that MOST western game companies that make CRPGs fail financially, and Bioware's success is so startling because it succeeds where MOST of the others fail) and trying to say that the exception instead disproves the rule somehow. 

That if one basketball team has Michael Jordan and the rest are a bunch of high school players just barely enough to fill out the roster, and the other basketball team has a roster full of A-List and B-List players (NBA stars and maybe a bunch of college stars) enough to fill out the team three times over, somehow Michael Jordan on the first basketball team makes it the better team.  Uh-uh, not how it works.  One great player on a team made up of very untried and unproven (or even removed due to injuries early on) players, a small team at that, only goes to emphasize how the team is new, inexperienced, and prone to not lasting. The other team, it's got players to spare, all players have a lot of experience and get great salaries because they must obviously get the job done.
Basically a diamond amongst a pile of glass shards doesn't prove that the pile is made up of valuable gems.  But a pile of rubies, emeralds, and the occasional garnet IS a pile of precious stones.

continued in another post ...

Modifié par MerinTB, 20 février 2010 - 06:54 .

[MerinTB]

MarloMarlo wrote...
Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not  examples of great Western RPGs
because there are less Western RPGs than  JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?

This is a strawman.
For one, I never used the quality (or lack thereof) of the above games or any JRPG games for my argument.

Second, the parameters of my argument were clearly stated as -

MerinTB wrote ...
But even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company making CRPGs, who does that leave in the last decade?

I'm sorry if my hemming and hawing about including Bethesda as a "great" CRPG company confused you, but I stepped away from it by saying bluntly "granting Bethesda as an example" and in such nulling my previous digression about Bethesda.  These are forum posts, not carefully drafted, rewritten, and proofed essays here - when typing one tends to ramble on a forum.

But the parameters of that one post was "look at the number of companies successfully producing numerous RPGs without folding over the last decade" and that argument was meant to show that Bioware pretty close stands alone AND THEREFORE cannot be used as an example of how great Western CRPGs are without others to add to it - it CAN be used as an example of how much more successful Bioware is (or is not) than, say, Square Enix or Konami, sure, but that wasn't what I was addressing.

Yet you go back and say that it CAN be used as the exception that disproves the rule -

MarloMarlo really did write...
If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are?

If A is the only part of group X that fits description Y, then description Y fits all of group X.  Using logic, this is a false statement.

Seriously, if you can't see the flaw in that statement, and please tell me if you can't, I'm done discussing this with you.

Third, the company that made Deus Ex folded shortly after that game.  The company that made Bloodlines folded after making that game (I loved Troika!)  The games didn't sell enough or impress enough people OR the  companies making them were so unprofessional and poorly managed that they fell apart - whatever the reason, the companies making those games didn't last after those games.  You are using Deus Ex to disprove my argument (which I think I've very well established that you do not get because you focus on moments where I digress into discussing, for example, how Bethesda makes their games and fail to notice that I dismiss the digression and never use it as part of my overall point) but Deus Ex PROVES my argument because Ion Storm was a huge failure - Daikatana, anyone?  And I really, REALLY don't want to pick on Todd Porter here (he's a hero of mine for making Knights of Legend) but Ion Storm's first release,Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3, not the best received game either - read: unsuccessful.

But point 3 here is a huge digression as well from me trying to say my initial post was sound and that you
misunderstood it.

You went from

MarloMarlo originally wrote...
If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are? What perspective needs to be pointed out? Like you said, BioWare is huge.
It's pretty much the workhorse of Western RPGs. Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up
with your argument.

to

MarloMarlo later
wrote...
Whereas your argument for what you were "really" arguing about only exists after the criticism and doesn't fit the premise of your post, which was "Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are."
...I'm telling you that your markets argument doesn't match your quality  argument. And it's not my responsibility to know what you want your actual argument was supposedly supposed to be after you made a
completely different argument that doesn't work.

Compared to where I go from -

MerinTB initially wrote...
you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?
(digression snipped)
even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company making CRPGs, who does that leave in the last decade?
(list of game companies that could be considered to have made great CRPGs but aren't proof of a good market for reasons I listed)
Where are the Capcom's, the Square's, the Bandai's, Konami's, tri-Ace, TOSE, Nihon Falcom .... I could go on for the sheer number of companies still in existence putting out numerous, numerous JPRGs.
... Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)

to

MerinTB later wrote...
I am responding to the meme spreading in this thread that the JRPG market is dying and the Western CRPG market is booming.  If you remove Bioware and Bethesda, there is almost no Western CRPG market to speak
of.   If you remove Square Enix and (pick one other, I'll say Capcom) from the JRPG market you still have tons of JRPGs being made. This is not a quality argument.  This is a "which market is doing better" argument.
(meandering digression hopelessly trying to point out I'm not attacking Western games out of favoritism for JRPGs)
Bioware's screaming success compared to almost all other Western CRPG makers (again, Bethesda can be considered of Bioware success), just shows how UNSUCCESSFUL FINANCIALLY most Western CRPGs are.
(another I don't want it to be this way digression)
Meanwhile Square is like a mini-EA gobbling up other companies.  Whereas EA gobbled up Bioware.

Point A (first quotes showing the original argument) = Point B (quotes from me trying to clarify to you my original argument) from my arguments. 
But your direct criticism of my original post doesn't match what you next post of criticisms claims my first post was about.

Also...
Nowhere did I say "Bethesda's games have no story so JRPGs are more successful" or (worse) "there are so many JRPGs being made that must mean all Western CRPGs are of horrible quality."  Despite you trying to paint me as saying so here -

MarloMarlo really wrote...
Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not examples of great Western RPGs because there are less Western RPGs than JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially
successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?

Honestly, are you going to come back and say I've changed my argument a third time by you, yourself, making your own moved goalposts again third argument about what I did wrong?

Modifié par MerinTB, 20 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[Busomjack]

thegreateski wrote...

Some games just flat out suck.

Sure, they have the potential to be awesome. In the end however, they sucked.

Just look at Fable 2.

Fable II doesn't suck, it just extremely frusterating that it's not great since it comes so close but falls short due to a few really stupid problems that could've easily been avoided like the lack of a good map for instance.

[MarloMarlo]

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
You can pick apart anyone's arguments if you take certain things they say and ignore the rest.[/quote]
Ignoring things is exactly what you should want, since the defense of your post hinges on ignoring things you said and I used.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Let me give you an example from what you wrote -

[quote]MarloMarlo wrote...
I'm telling you that your markets argument doesn't match your quality argument. And it's not my responsibility to know what you want your actual argument was supposedly supposed to be after you made a completely different argument that doesn't work.
[/quote]

So I made a quality argument?
But wait -

[quote]MarloMarlo originally wrote...
you brush off outliers for reasons other than the quality of the games
[/quote]

So I don't make a quality argument?
Which is it?[/quote]

You made a quality argument and attempted to back it up with arguments that were not qualty arguments. So both, obviously, if I used both.

To put it in words I already used, "...you follow it up with arguments that don't follow..."

You start off saying "Small aside - everyone keeps point at Bioware as an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are" and then you fail to back that up when you, like I said, brush off outliers for reasons other than the quality of the games.

Again, that's like a birther arguing that Obama was born in Kenya because Scott Brown won a senate seat, and when someone points out that Brown winning a senate seat has nothing to do with Obama's birthplace, he denies being a birther in the first place and claims that he was only talking about what happened in Massachusetts.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Want another example of taking what you say out of context to make you seem incoherent?

[quote]MarloMarlo wrote (in immediate chronological order)...
And how am I treating you like a JRPG fanatic? (...) If you want proof of that, just take my entire post.
[/quote]
You know, I agree.  Your post as a whole showed that you were treating me like I was bashing WRPG's in favor of JRPGs.  That's absolutely how I took it.[/quote]
Oh? That's how you took it? Is that supposed to mean something to anyone but yourself? You know, Tea Partiers take everything that Obama does as an attempt to turn America into a mountain of fire and tears. And, like you, they've failed to come up with a shred of evidence to support their crazyness.

But I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with my imaginary arguments about how JRPGs are your favorites.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Seriously now, you take my whole original post in context it holds together.  I'm sorry you are missing that.  But let me take my topic sentence (not my lead-in) and my concluding sentence.[/quote]
It's like I said, "Ignoring things is exactly what you should want."

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
[quote]MerinTB's topic sentence was...
Uhm - you all realize that Bioware is the exception, not the rule?[/quote]
[quote]MerinTB's concluding sentence was...
Bioware is so popular and huge because it basically stands alone (or with a couple brethren at best.)[/quote]
And everything inbetween was speaking to how successful one market was, looking at companies continuing to produce more and more RPGs, as compared to another.[/quote]
BioWare is the exception and not the rule in terms of what? Oh, that's right: "how great and innovative Western CRPGs are."

Complete the circle and critize me for not ignoring things.

[quote]MerinTB's topic sentence was...
Did I comment on the quality of the games being made?  Sure. Did that make my argument one of quality?  No, as I never compared Western CRPGs quality to JRPGs quality.  But that's where YOU moved the goalposts on your critiques.[/quote]
I never said you compared the quality of Western RPGs to JRPGs. If you did, that would sort of undermine my argument, which was that you didn't. And why should you? Because those comments on quality were your lede and the first argument you made after it. BioWare is the exception to the rule; Bethesda isn't full of storytellers. And everyone else? They're dead or doing very little nowadays, which has nothing to do with Western RPGs being great and innovative, and undermines your reasoning for why people need to put things into perspective when they shower praise on BioWare as the greatest example.

And then you remind everyone that the Japanese have lots more JRPG studios than the West has RPG studios. Wouldn't it be convenient for you if we ignored everything before that part and pretended that it wasn't used as an argument for BioWare being an exception to the rule for "how great and innovative Western CRPGs are."

[quote]MerinTB's topic sentence was...
What was your ORIGINAL critique of what you quoted from me?  Here's some telling quotes -
[quote]MarloMarlo wrote...
If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are? What perspective needs to be pointed out? Like you said, BioWare is huge.
It's pretty much the workhorse of Western RPGs. Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up with your argument.[/quote]
You are directly addressing my point (Bioware shouldn't be used as an example of Western CRPGs being more innovative, creative, successful, etc, than JRPGs as it is an OUTLIER - it's the exception that proves the rule that MOST western game companies that make CRPGs fail financially, and Bioware's success is so startling because it succeeds where MOST of the others fail) and trying to say that the exception instead disproves the rule somehow.[/quote]
The fact that you think pointing this out helps you is hilarious to me.

First off, you never argued about BioWare not being a valid example of Western RPGs being more "successful," or anything close to that. Stop trying to convince everyone that that was there. Quotes of yourself that you use prove it wasn't there.

Second, if you try to show me saying that an exception somehow disproves the rule, you will fail. So I'm not surprised that no attempt was made. I hope that one day you'll figure out that strawman arguments don't work on people that pay attention. Before you embarass yourself on this point, too, I'll just remind you that I said "Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not examples of great Western RPGs..." Attempt by me to use BioWare as an exception that proves the rule?

Finally, it's adorable that you apparently think studios that make good games will necessarily be successful financially. Once again, you're arguing against "how great and innovative Western CRPGs are," or, if you now prefer, "innovative, creative," on financials rather than the quality of the games, which is why your post was criticized in the first place. In case you're confused again: success is not an indicator of quality, so using success to measure things like innovation doesn't work.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...

[quote]MarloMarlo wrote...
Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not  examples of great Western RPGs
because there are less Western RPGs than  JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?[/quote]

This is a strawman.
For one, I never used the quality (or lack thereof) of the above games or any JRPG games for my argument.[/quote]
Which is my point. You didn't use the quality of those games, or any games other than Fallout 3 in your argument about "how great and innovative Western CRPGs are." Instead, you used the success of studios, which is why it's not a strawman.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Second, the parameters of my argument were clearly stated as -
[quote]MerinTB wrote ...
But even granting Bethesda as an example of a great Western company making CRPGs, who does that leave in the last decade?
[/quote]
I'm sorry if my hemming and hawing about including Bethesda as a "great" CRPG company confused you, but I stepped away from it by saying bluntly "granting Bethesda as an example" and in such nulling my previous digression about Bethesda.[/quote]
Your feelings towards Bethesda are irrelevant to me and don't affect the arguments I've made against you. But my arguments boil down to you doing things that don't make sense, so I guess this shouldn't be unexpected from you.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
These are forum posts, not carefully drafted, rewritten, and proofed essays here - when typing one tends to ramble on a forum.[/quote]
Your problem, not mine. So don't remind me that you screw up when I'm already doing that for you and then blame me for not getting something.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
But the parameters of that one post was "look at the number of companies successfully producing numerous RPGs without folding over the last decade" and that argument was meant to show that Bioware pretty close stands alone AND THEREFORE cannot be used as an example of how great Western CRPGs are without others to add to it - it CAN be used as an example of how much more successful Bioware is (or is not) than, say, Square Enix or Konami, sure, but that wasn't what I was addressing.[/quote]
It should be clear by now that I'm already aware of what you weren't addressing.

Again, thank you for reiterating your backwards argument that quality (of games) can be judged by quantity (of successful studios), along with the inane argument that BioWare can't be used "as an example" because it's very successful and many other studios aren't. I suppose that might make sense if we changed your premise from "an example of how great and innovative Western CRPGs are" to something else you'd rather have had it be now.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Yet you go back and say that it CAN be used as the exception that disproves the rule -
[quote]MarloMarlo really did write...
If BioWare "basically stands alone," why should anyone have a problem with using BioWare as the example of how great Western RPGs are?[/quote]

If A is the only part of group X that fits description Y, then description Y fits all of group X.  Using logic, this is a false statement.

Seriously, if you can't see the flaw in that statement, and please tell me if you can't, I'm done discussing this with you.
[/quote]
You said that BioWare stands alone. Those were your words, not mine. If BioWare is alone and dominates Western RPG output, while everyone else is dead or barely putting out in comparison, then not using them as an example is what wouldn't make sense. Because if BioWare is responsible for a lot of the Western RPGs, if it's the workhorse, there's not much else to use as examples now is there. The bigger BioWare is, the bigger the chunk of what represents Western RPGs you'd be ignoring.

Again, your characterization, not mine ("Even if that wasn't true, that's what you worked with to come up with your argument.").

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Third, the company that made Deus Ex folded shortly after that game.[/quote]
Wanting to pretend that Invisible War never existed doesn't make it so; the same is true for pretending to have made a different argument.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
The company that made Bloodlines folded after making that game (I loved Troika!)  The games didn't sell enough or impress enough people OR the  companies making them were so unprofessional and poorly managed that they fell apart - whatever the reason, the companies making those games didn't last after those games.[/quote]
Again, how adorable. I bet you thought "Disaster Movie" was an ironic title.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
You are using Deus Ex to disprove my argument (which I think I've very well established that you do not get because you focus on moments where I digress into discussing, for example, how Bethesda makes their games and fail to notice that I dismiss the digression and never use it as part of my overall point) but Deus Ex PROVES my argument because Ion Storm was a huge failure - Daikatana, anyone?  And I really, REALLY don't want to pick on Todd Porter here (he's a hero of mine for making Knights of Legend) but Ion Storm's first release,Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3, not the best received game either - read: unsuccessful.[/quote]
I like how the failure of a studio because of games that you blame that aren't RPGs somehow means that Deus Ex proves your point.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
But point 3 here is a huge digression as well from me trying to say my initial post was sound and that you
misunderstood it.
[...]
Point A (first quotes showing the original argument) = Point B (quotes from me trying to clarify to you my original argument) from my arguments. 
But your direct criticism of my original post doesn't match what you next post of criticisms claims my first post was about.[/quote]
Again with those quotes... Refer to what I already said.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Also...
Nowhere did I say "Bethesda's games have no story so JRPGs are more successful" or (worse) "there are so many JRPGs being made that must mean all Western CRPGs are of horrible quality."  Despite you trying to paint me as saying so here -
[quote]MarloMarlo really wrote...
Are games like Deus Ex, Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer somehow not examples of great Western RPGs because there are less Western RPGs than JRPGs, or because the studios that made them aren't as financially
successful as Japanese studios, or any other reason that has nothing to do with the games themselves?[/quote][/quote]
If you read my paragraph, you'll notice that I don't make any of the arguments you think I'm saying you made. I'm pointing out the absurdity of brining up financial success and the quantity of Japanese studios churning out JRPGs in the context of considering BioWare a great and innovative exception to the Western RPG rule.

Apparently one of the problems we're having is that you're making assumptions and think that I should be making them, too.

[quote]MerinTB wrote...
Honestly, are you going to come back and say I've changed my argument a third time by you, yourself, making your own moved goalposts again third argument about what I did wrong?[/quote]
You don't know what anyone is saying. What does it matter what I do, anyway? You're just going to say I did something else.

I don't care if you admit to being wrong or not. But don't waste my time trying to weasel your way out of your blunder by blaming your mistake on me. I'd rather you pretended to believe you won as an excuse to start ignoring me. Ignoring things is your favorite solution, apparently. In fact, pretend I didn't say this so it's less awkward for you to do it.

Also, if you think I made a mistake or bad argument or something not good for me, just ignore it. I was probably rambling and you're not understanding what I'm actually saying. You need to read a bit deeper. These are forum posts, not carefully drafted, rewritten, and proofed essays here - when typing one tends to ramble on a forum.

Modifié par MarloMarlo, 20 février 2010 - 12:04 .

[Zanallen]

I don't know...I understood Merlin's argument just fine. Bioware is one of the very few companies that have found financial success in making WRPGs. Most companies that produce WRPGs fail financially. Merlin proceeded to produce examples of said companies, not talking about the quality of the games, but instead about the success of the companies that made said games. Meanwhile, there are numerous companies that produce JRPGs and have maintained financial success. Why are you having so much trouble understanding his argument? Are you, perhaps, continuing the long tradition of arguing just for the sake of argument?

[Jono0Ash]

I couldn't help but laugh at Square Enix, they seem to be stuck in the past from reading the article. To be honest I believe SE are more scared of the rise of Western RPG's because they are generating a lot of sales and it's starting to affect the JRPG fanbase who are moving over towards western elements.

[Ryzaki]

...Or you know the game could have just have been bad.



>_>

[MerinTB]

Zanallen wrote...

I don't know...I understood Merlin's argument just fine. Bioware is one of the very few companies that have found financial success in making WRPGs. Most companies that produce WRPGs fail financially. Merlin proceeded to produce examples of said companies, not talking about the quality of the games, but instead about the success of the companies that made said games. Meanwhile, there are numerous companies that produce JRPGs and have maintained financial success. Why are you having so much trouble understanding his argument? Are you, perhaps, continuing the long tradition of arguing just for the sake of argument?

MarloMarlo is trolling me in this thread for whatever reason is all the conclusion I can draw.
I again went out of my way to try and be clear, put things in context, and communicate - but MarloMarlo is twisting what I am saying and trying to (for who know what reason) make me seem incoherent.

I'm going to give MarloMarlo my last shred of benefit of the doubt, assume that MarloMarlo isn't a complete idiot and is instead just trying to draw me out into some kind of flamewar. or something.

As such, I'm done with responding to MarloMarlo as well.  That poster can post whatever they want in this thread, but this is the last time I respond to or mention it.

All you can do with such unreasonable people, people who refuse to accept you telling them what you mean and instead try to tell you what you mean, is to ignore them.

My advice to you, Zanallen, is to also ignore them.  When they rant to themselves and get no response they tend to go away.  Or look extremely silly.

[MarloMarlo]

Zanallen wrote...
I don't know...I understood Merlin's argument just fine. Bioware is one of the very few companies that have found financial success in making WRPGs. Most companies that produce WRPGs fail financially. Merlin proceeded to produce examples of said companies, not talking about the quality of the games, but instead about the success of the companies that made said games. Meanwhile, there are numerous companies that produce JRPGs and have maintained financial success. Why are you having so much trouble understanding his argument? Are you, perhaps, continuing the long tradition of arguing just for the sake of argument?

There's no basis for the assumption that the issue is me not understanding anything. Do you think I said "And then you remind everyone that the Japanese have lots more JRPG studios than the West has RPG studios" because I didn't recognize he said that?

If anyone is having trouble understanding anything, it's him. My last post was mostly responding to his assumptions, like his incorrect belief that I care about his feelings towards Bethesda or think JRPGs are his favorites. Then there were things like his inability to understand the concept of arguments about one thing not supporting arguments about another thing. And he's been unable to provide evidence for his assumptions, which is why challenges like "...if you try to show me saying that an exception somehow disproves the rule, you will fail" will be ignored, because there's nothing else he can do. He doesn't have an answer. And since his attempts at revisionism have failed, all he can do now is try to save face by framing it as if no one has ever pointed out any of his mistakes and ignore them away. Big surprise.

Oh well. I got tired of him ignoring his burden of proof when making his claims and expecting me to have to disprove what he has failed to prove in the first place, anyway -- that example of what he can't address, for example. And him admitting he was wrong, especially to blame me for his ramblings, would've been really awkward for me, too, so I'm glad he's not doing that.