158 réponses à ce sujet

[RayneMoon]

I think if Shepard is smart they can collect all the evidence from ME1 and ME2 and then just give it to the Council and if they still don't listen tell them where to shove it.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Alexandus wrote...
But while we're on the subject, that is a path that will LEAD to weakness and stagnation, it perverts the natural order, which is Darwinian Chaos. In a perfect world, it would work, if we lacked individuality, it would work, but it isn't that way.

Social Darwinism was tried, it turned out to really be racism.

[meznaric]

Doug84 wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

True...true... and the keepers where said to have made off with some of the salvage from Sovereign.

Whilst I think about it, am I the only one who thinks there are probably dozens if not hundreds of partially indocrated sleeper agents on the Citadel now because they keep a piece of Sovereign's hull in their wardrobe?

Of course, I'm hoping the Council really do believe in the Reapers, but aren't telling Shepard because he's working for Cerberus (And for all they know, under Cerberus control, given they rebuilt him). But I suspect they don't. A pity, but you are right when you say the evidence is just not their.

Makes sense really - the Reapers have had millions of years to perfect the art of subtle influence to make sure they aren't detected early.

I am giving huge credit to bioware's writers here. They have perfectly captured the essence of what it is like to KNOW what is happening, but because you are the only person who has seen it no one believes you. I just want to smah that turian every time he opens his mouth and that is before the air quotes. But I do not think they are indoctrinated, I think their intelligence service is being manipulated by Cerberus.

Did you see my post in the other topic you started about the council the other day. i don't feel like typing that wall o text again. It thoroughly outlines my reasoning behind their skepticism.

True, true. And maybe, I'll go back to my topic in the morning and see if I've already read it yet (its late here so I'll probably be off to sleep as soon as I've finished this post).

I have to agree with you about the writers - damn good at what they do. I personally don't see why so many people seem to think the plot is 'full of plot holes' whenever something isn't completely explained to them then and there, as a lot of the whiner have been saying stuff like that.

petipas1414 wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Is it possible that the Citadel is somehow affecting them to not believe it?

I like this point a lot. Anything is possible, right?

The only way we'll know for sure is when the reapers break through and the **** hits the fan.

But for my 2 cents, we all saw the PDA with the reaper info at the end of the game... I don't think the council would be able to refute that.

I think its possible, and within the power of the Reapers. But the problem with that theory is that Anderson hasn't been affected by it. Though 2 years might not be long enough to work on him...

Though I think its a combination of a lack of real evidence like jklinders has been saying and a desire not to want to see that threat rather than Reaper control.

If the Citadel is affecting them it must be slow and subtle, because fast indoctrination affects intelligence. Maybe that's why the Salarian is most willing to believe - they don't live very long so he probably hasn't been a councillor for that long. But then again, I could be wrong. Just a speculation.

[Doug84]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Alexandus wrote...
But
while we're on the subject, that is a path that will LEAD to weakness
and stagnation, it perverts the natural order, which is Darwinian
Chaos. In a perfect world, it would work, if we lacked individuality,
it would work, but it isn't that way.

Social Darwinism was
tried, it turned out to really be racism.

Indeedie.
Darwin himself spins in his grave every time someone mentions
'Darwinism', and twice as much when they say 'Social Darwinism'.

Or rather, he would if people hadn't already tried that bullcrap when he was alive. I believe I recall Darwin being against the slave trade and a humanitarian.

meznaric wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
I think its possible, and within the power of the Reapers. But the problem with that theory is that Anderson hasn't been affected by it. Though 2 years might not be long enough to work on him...

Though I think its a combination of a lack of real evidence like jklinders has been saying and a desire not to want to see that threat rather than Reaper control.

If the Citadel is affecting them it must be slow and subtle, because fast indoctrination affects intelligence. Maybe that's why the Salarian is most willing to believe - they don't live very long so he probably hasn't been a councillor for that long. But then again, I could be wrong. Just a speculation.

Indeedie

Modifié par Doug84, 17 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[jklinders]

Doug84, here is the copy paste of the post I was talking about in the other topic in case you could not find it in this really disorganized forum( hey Bioware, search function please.) Belongs more here anyway.



Regardless of lifespan, people tend to get a little complacent after a long period of reletive stability. Heck, you hear as much from the Asari bartender. Maybe it is the krogan in her talking, but she made a lot of sense.



Let's look at this from the council's perspective, conservative centrist Asari, who really would like to think everything is all right, Turians who likely think that claiming a huge threat is coming is just another human ploy to get more power (the turians have always been suspicious of human motives) and salians who will only act based on what their far reaching intelligence tells them.



Forget politics for a moment and look at the evidence. Maybe Liara's evidence downloaded from the prothean VI came out as corrupted garbled nonsence(giving the writers credit here, they seemed to have forgotten that point). What's left, the wreckage of Sovereuign, and everything else is in Shepard's head, the beacons on Virmire and Eden Prime are destoyed, the Thorian is dead, the prothean cipher is in Shepard's head.



Consider that all the tasty bits of Sovereign were scavenged, heck a lot of it was picked up by Cerberus and they are definately not sharing and it becomes clear that the only evidence of the reapers are in the mind of one man who went through one hell of an ordeal. They should trust Shepard but they don't because they think he cracked, end of story about believing in the reapers.



About their inaction in ME2, it has already been said, but bears repeating. The non human council members consider it a human problem that is largely occurring outside council space. As a council member humanity needs to step up to it's own plate until it can be shown that what is happing threatens everyone. Still it would be nice to have some help since so many human resouce goes into protecting the Citadel.



Why does the Alliance not do more to investigate? The answer seems to be Cerberus, the Illusive Man admits to seeding false rumors about the source of the kidnappings. Let's think about this, Cerberus has high ranking members in the Alliance military and the Alliance military Industry, that is how the Normandy was built and copied. If all the Illusive Man wanted wa sto stop the kidnappings he could have put a stop to the whole shooting match in days, instead he goes all cloak and dagger.



Spending enough money to raise a fleet of his own, he brings Shepard back. Convinces Shepard he is the only one who cares enough about the colonists to act(while actually siccing the Alliance on himself) and hand picks a Ceberus unit to gain Shepard's trust. (the real reason for yeoman Kelly Chambers, she really is useless but very sweet and non representative of Cerberus' goals)



Conclusion, The illusive Man is in large part responsible for Humanity's and the Council's inaction on the threat. The purpose was to gain access to that collector base before anyone else with the hope of having the entire galaxy by the throat. this at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.



I have only one theory for ME3. the answer to the reaper question will not be reaper technology. Going at them with their own tech will end in a massacre. We are talking thousands of ships verseat mos hundreds.



Waiting until the next installment to find out if I am right./images/forum/emoticons/happy.png

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Council never believed you and there is no reason to believe that they will change their mind in ME3. TIM isn't exactly your friend either in the end. So both of these allies are lost.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[Cavado]

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

[Cavado]

sorry accidently clicked twice

Modifié par Cavado, 17 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[Doug84]

jklinders wrote...
-snip for space-

Yup, I pretty much have to agree with everything you say there.

It just annoys me that people keep on pointing at these things and going "BAD WRITERING" (which would be funny on several levels ). Even I never said it was bad writing because, well, politicians are involved, and when that happens, I can pretty much accept that any level of silliness can occur.

But you're right, its not really silliness or stupidness on the Councils/Alliances part. In fact, I think the whole point of the writing was to try and make the player feel as if they  where being stupid, even though they actually weren't.

Though about Vigil... I don't recall Liara downloading anything from him - I was under the impression she wanted to say and study it, but they had no time.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Cavado wrote...

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

Exactly. I was disppointed by all those "huge impact decisions". BioWare only made them cosmetic. If Wrex died then someone else would be giving you the same dialog as Wrex did (without the friendlyness), the rachni queen only sent that messenger, Udina and Anderson said essentially the same. Etc. 

[Varenus Luckmann]

meznaric wrote...
Hey, socialist does not equal weak minded!

Exactly! Marxism equals weak-minded!
Get it right!

[Doug84]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cavado wrote...

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

Exactly. I was disppointed by all those "huge impact decisions". BioWare only made them cosmetic. If Wrex died then someone else would be giving you the same dialog as Wrex did (without the friendlyness), the rachni queen only sent that messenger, Udina and Anderson said essentially the same. Etc. 

So far. It may have a massive impact in ME3.

[Daeion]

regardless of if they believe me or not I just want to be able to shoot that Turian councelor..."reapers"...

[Ocelot83]

Daeion wrote...

regardless of if they believe me or not I just want to be able to shoot that Turian councelor..."reapers"...

No, he mustn't die. The Turian councilor is one of the funniest characters in ME universe, because he is always such an dick to Shepard regardless of Shepards actions.

[StewartL46]

Tleining wrote...

At the end of ME2 you have definite proof. Yeah, they are going to believe you. Of course the Turian won't, but no surprise there

lol he's forced into going to the collectors base by shepard  , shepard show's him the dead reaper the turian then says ''ah yes thats obv collector design '' you then show him the harbinger ''just a vi'' shepard OMFG

lol

[Urazz]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cavado wrote...

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

Exactly. I was disppointed by all those "huge impact decisions". BioWare only made them cosmetic. If Wrex died then someone else would be giving you the same dialog as Wrex did (without the friendlyness), the rachni queen only sent that messenger, Udina and Anderson said essentially the same. Etc. 

They'll probably have more impact in ME3 where it'll probably effect how many lives were saved in the end, who is in better position to be in control, etc.  ME2 was more transition than anything else in my opinion as we do see some of the impact of your choices.

[Daeion]

Ocelot83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

regardless of if they believe me or not I just want to be able to shoot that Turian councelor..."reapers"...

No, he mustn't die. The Turian councilor is one of the funniest characters in ME universe, because he is always such an dick to Shepard regardless of Shepards actions.

Fine, then I get to punch him out or something....

[Doug84]

Ocelot83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

regardless of if they believe me or not I just want to be able to shoot that Turian councelor..."reapers"...

No, he mustn't die. The Turian councilor is one of the funniest characters in ME universe, because he is always such an dick to Shepard regardless of Shepards actions.

"Shepard, why did you save that puppy farm?"
"Be...cause?"
" Don't you know those puppies are out to get us!"

OR

"Shepard, why did you burn that puppy farm down?"
"Be...cause?"
"All those poor innocent puppies..."

[Daeion]

Tleining wrote...

At the end of ME2 you have definite proof. Yeah, they are going to believe you. Of course the Turian won't, but no surprise there

I blew up the base, what evidence do I have now that I didn't before?

[Bron Avery]

I will not post a-Ah yes, "Reape-oh damn it.

[Vaenier]

They will believe me when I show up in my new Reaper ship! muahahaha!

Seriously, they wont believe anything till its shooting at them. They will believe right when it is to late, or after you already save the day.

I should unite my geth quarian rachni armies and replace the council with them, now that would be awsome.

[Doug84]

Daeion wrote...

Tleining wrote...

At the end of ME2 you have definite proof. Yeah, they are going to believe you. Of course the Turian won't, but no surprise there

I blew up the base, what evidence do I have now that I didn't before?

That data pad Joker hands you at the end of the game. I suspect EDI hacked into the Collector network and/or the links between Collector-General and Harbinger.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Doug84 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cavado wrote...

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

Exactly. I was disppointed by all those "huge impact decisions". BioWare only made them cosmetic. If Wrex died then someone else would be giving you the same dialog as Wrex did (without the friendlyness), the rachni queen only sent that messenger, Udina and Anderson said essentially the same. Etc. 

So far. It may have a massive impact in ME3.

It doesn't exactly pique my curiosity.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Urazz wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cavado wrote...

I was dissapointed with the council in 2 it pretty much meant nothing what you did with them in the 1st because if your on that council your an idiot lol

Exactly. I was disppointed by all those "huge impact decisions". BioWare only made them cosmetic. If Wrex died then someone else would be giving you the same dialog as Wrex did (without the friendlyness), the rachni queen only sent that messenger, Udina and Anderson said essentially the same. Etc. 

They'll probably have more impact in ME3 where it'll probably effect how many lives were saved in the end, who is in better position to be in control, etc.  ME2 was more transition than anything else in my opinion as we do see some of the impact of your choices.

I am fairly certain that if ME1 decisions have impact that they are in ME2, because chances are that when ME3 is released a lot players won't even have imported games of ME1. Only the die hards like us. It will be hard for BW to justify the efforts put into it.