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Comparison Between Dragon Age and Baldurs Gate


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#176
Haexpane

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AlanC9 wrote...

But the combat was still, press X to win.


Is that actually true, or just typical internet overstatement? I've heard the console versions were a little easier than PC version, but I've never seen a gameplay vid of someone winning one of the tough DAO fights without at least some player interaction.


On medium, for non dragons yes it's true.  Although you don't actually have to hit X you can just put the controller down.

Dragons, I had to manually control my Tank and chug potions... But once you hit level 20, clearing RTO for example you don't really need any tactics.

Supposedly on the consoles the enemies are tougher than on the PC, there are just less of them.

But if you read everyone else's comments, at level 20 because of broken scaling and unbalanced classes, you can pretty much breeze through any encounter without really playing.

That's not such a bad thing, if there were more enemies to kill.  Like in Dungeon Siege, you can watch TV and play at the same time, DAO is kinda like that except for some convoluted map layouts.  I would actually enjoy it more if there were simply more baddies, the problem is the fights end so quickly at level 20.

The final boss in RTO literally takes about 20 seconds to kill, without using ANY tactics... full auto attack mode.   2 templar beserkers, 1 mage, 1 rogue/ranger

Many people are reporting clearing all of RTO in a total of 25 minutes.    People who play it at level 8 or so taking much longer

#177
Haexpane

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If I can remember correctly, BG2 seemed to be hard from level 1 through level 20. DAO seemed to be hard at level 1-10, then medium for the next 5, then way too easy for level 16-20

#178
Highdragonslayer

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Haexpane wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

 

     Was there a creature in BG2 that was made by forcing a woman to eat the flesh of monsters that have a taint in order to turn her into a horrible monster to make more of them?
 

OMFG that's soooo serious?  

Highdragonslayer wrote...

     All the dwarves in the DnD universe are Ohgren, the difference in DA:O is that he's an exception and is shunned for being a drunk.


Umm so what?  Explaining a character that everyone already knows makes him extra serious somehow? What is the point of rehashing the drunk dorf trope background?

Highdragonslayer wrote..
  Look at the drow for instance, each and everyone of them is evil, no exception just all evil. Not one is good execpt for that guy from the books, but every single one is evil. Of course your good guys are the generic fantasy races elf, dwarf, and human. Don't get me started on how the dragon's alignment is dependeble on the colour of their scales.


And why is that wrong again?  Not every drow was evil btw.   I still don't understand how black dragons being evil is "omg that's not serious enuff!!!"  Eating flesh man, that's like seriously serious!:wizard:


     So your saying being forced to eat flesh of evil monsters to become one of them that makes more of them is just as serious as space hamsters?! The races in DA:O are much more interesting, the humans aren't the champions of awesome like they are in DnD, the elves aren't the perfect race of everything that is good instead their entire race lost their culture and history to humans. The dwarves aren't your get drunk and fight guys either, instead their race is dying slowly. The only race that could be considered evil is the darkspawn and they aren't really sentient beings capable of thought.

     The dragons alignment is espeically stupid, being a black or red dragon instantly makes you evil and want to cause pain to others? Why, it doesn't make any sense it's like rascist stereotypes accept they're real! It's retarted.

#179
Haexpane

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HAHA Red Dragons being evil is "racist" OMFG that's funny.



Being "forced to drink the blood of darkspawn" is indeed no more or less serious than a giant ranger d00d who thinks his hamster is from space. "Oh d00d we gotta drink da evilz blud!" is very 7th grade Dungeon Master 'serious'



That being said, whether or not you think "Dark-spawn' ya know, spawn that comes from bad place is somehow more serious than Drow is irrelevant to me as to which game is better.



I don't remember humans being always good or elves being always good in D&D or BGII< in fact, you're quite simply wrong on that point.



The main dorf in DAO burps and drinks a lot, so much for "not the get drunk and fight guys either..."



The dorf stories in DAO are nothing new, been there since D&D, Everquest, you name it.


#180
AlanC9

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Well, it's not that it isn't racist to call red dragons evil. It's just that in D&D racism is true. But it's kinda true in Thedas too, since darkspawn are evil.



What's a "dorf"?

#181
Haexpane

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Racism is "true" everywhere.

#182
Highdragonslayer

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Haexpane wrote...

HAHA Red Dragons being evil is "racist" OMFG that's funny.

Being "forced to drink the blood of darkspawn" is indeed no more or less serious than a giant ranger d00d who thinks his hamster is from space. "Oh d00d we gotta drink da evilz blud!" is very 7th grade Dungeon Master 'serious'

That being said, whether or not you think "Dark-spawn' ya know, spawn that comes from bad place is somehow more serious than Drow is irrelevant to me as to which game is better.

I don't remember humans being always good or elves being always good in D&D or BGII

The main dorf in DAO burps and drinks a lot, so much for "not the get drunk and fight guys either..."

The dorf stories in DAO are nothing new, been there since D&D, Everquest, you name it.


So you didn't think the brood mother was creepy at all, and that it's just as serious as giant space hamsters?

#183
AlanC9

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Haexpane wrote...

Racism is "true" everywhere.


Huh?

#184
astrallite

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If isometric is so outdated, then don't use it. And that of course, is one of the problems. RTS games are still isometric. If we have an isometric camera angle, we shouldn't have to continually spin the camera around during battles because the hallways are so thin. If you don't design the maps to be isometric friendly, I don't really see the point of implementing it.

#185
Penalty

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attackfighter wrote...

Stippling wrote...

I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm just not sure what you hope to accomplish by doing this. Is your goal to improve Dragon Age? Or just to show which is superior? If it's the latter, I don't really care and you're definitely wasting your time. If it's the former, carry on but be a little more objective. Don't just pick categories you can slant to BG. You have to do Graphics, voice overs, Origins and other details, etc.


You don't seem to understand the point of a forum. This isn't here so we can pitch ideas to Bioware (no company randomly implements things suggested by its fans), this forum is here so we can discuss stuff. If you're here for the sole purpose of improving Dragon Age: Origins then you're doing it wrong:blush:.

Ugh, I feel like I'm a preschool teacher when I have to explain this stuff haha.


No it seems you dont undestand the point of forum.

Yes in deed we should point out the flaws and so on.
The flaw is that this its not bg and bg is still the best greatest and allmighty :blush:

 It seems that you havent ever played bg so i dont say anything anymore.

Modifié par Penalty, 19 mars 2010 - 08:05 .


#186
Haexpane

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Highdragonslayer wrote...
 
So you didn't think the brood mother was creepy at all, and that it's just as serious as giant space hamsters?


I honestly don't remember what it looked like other than being a big blob.  I've seen the big blobby bad boss trope a million times over so it's "seriousness" is irrelevant to me.

I'm not actually a fan of Minsc from BG2, but 1 goofy character I don't find any more or less serious than Orghen and his burping.

#187
Haexpane

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AlanC9 wrote...

  It's just that in D&D racism is true.


Racism is "true" everywhere.  You "huh"?'d that comment.  I don't understand the "huh?"

#188
Highdragonslayer

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Haexpane wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...
 
So you didn't think the brood mother was creepy at all, and that it's just as serious as giant space hamsters?


I honestly don't remember what it looked like other than being a big blob.  I've seen the big blobby bad boss trope a million times over so it's "seriousness" is irrelevant to me.

I'm not actually a fan of Minsc from BG2, but 1 goofy character I don't find any more or less serious than Orghen and his burping.




You didn't think the build up to that part was creepy at all? Really I think your just trolling me.

#189
AlanC9

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Haexpane wrote...


Racism is "true" everywhere.  You "huh"?'d that comment.  I don't understand the "huh?"


I meant that I have absolutely no idea what you meant. Particularly the quotes around "true".

#190
Highdragonslayer

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This thread has accomplished something. I decided to order in BG2 from Amazon lol.

#191
Haexpane

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Highdragonslayer wrote...
 

You didn't think the build up to that part was creepy at all? Really I think your just trolling me.

No, disagreeing with the opinion of DAO being more "serious" than BG2 is not trolling.  Have you seen any insults?   

Lets go back to an earlier point.  Someone mentioned the Boo Hamster was a sign that BG2 is not serious and DAO is...

I submit to you as evidence from DAO A   Ser Pounce a Lot.

Thus ends the "DAO is more serious" than BG2 debate, they are equally serious, not serious.  The brood mother was no more or less serious than any of the bosses from BG2

#192
Haexpane

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AlanC9 wrote...

Haexpane wrote...


Racism is "true" everywhere.  You "huh"?'d that comment.  I don't understand the "huh?"


I meant that I have absolutely no idea what you meant. Particularly the quotes around "true".

You have no idea what I "meant" by quoting you?   I can't explain what you meant.

#193
AlanC9

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So you were just saying that racism is true, and the quotation marks were meaningless? That's your point?

#194
Haexpane

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AlanC9 wrote...

So you were just saying that racism is true, and the quotation marks were meaningless? That's your point?


Nope, I didn't say that.  You said "racism is true in ...."   I said racisim is "true" everywhere.  Point being saying BG2 or AD&D is "racist" and alluding to that somehow making it bad, ingores reality.

Trying to keep it to BG2 vs. DAO as much as I can, it aint easy with semanitcs and people not understanding their own posts...:o

#195
roadie82

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its a case of nostaligia. remeber Thundercats? yeah, it was awesome, so was GI Joe, until you watch it when you are 28 and realize that they werent all that great as you remember. I love the fallout series, and still remember the endless nights I spent playing both of them. A few months ago, I decided I would give them a shot again. Bad idea, they were still solid games, but I just couldnt get into it like I used to, and forget about starting a fight in a big town, you'll be there for ages, go make a lunch, take a nap and it might be your turn again. Anyway, loved the BG series, but I think it is time to move on. Hey, how about this, Bioware can remake BG 1&2 with the DA engine, heh, that would be like remaking the episodes 4-6.

#196
roadie82

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wow, did some reading on the more recent posts...wow...seriosuly! ok, lets call the darkspawn the ambiguous color spawn, or evil underground creatures. Its simple, they are evil and the come from shadows...hence the name darkspawn, pure and simple. Hey you know what else? this is all not real! *shock* who cares about the dragons color in relation to its alignment?! its a fantasy game and they are creatures in it. Why are goblins always bad? thats racist against green people!

#197
MindYerBeak

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BG1 was a masterpiece of it's time, there'll never be another game to equal it, no matter how good the graphics get. It had something like 100 hrs of gameplay, how many hours does it take to play DAO? How many players are suffering from memory leaks and can't finish the game? A good strategist could finish it in a few days. Myself, along with others, can no longer finish the game due to memory problems, despite having a Duo processor. BG1 was unique for it's time, there was no other game around to equal it. I remember having trepidation when buying the game, thinking it was just another Hack'n'Slash. I was pleasantly surprised. All those stats, what do they mean? I was halfway through the game before I realised a Bard could perform magic! It was all completely new to me. DAO, in my opinion, is too simplistic. If you've played BG1 you know exactly where to place your stats points, and there are so few of them. I'm at about level 14 and the game's a breeze, battles are a foregone conclusion, I always win, as do many others it seems. Apparently the endgame is the easiest battle of all. Not so in BG1. Try beating Drizzt without resorting to a cheat sheet. You were literally forced to press the spacebar for most encounters. What use is a game where you simply set the actions of your party to auto, nip out for a packet of ****s and a Takeaway, come back and find the battle won? All on auto. Try doing that with BG1. Over and over again people complain that DAO is far too easy, and I feel I must concur, especially after reaching a certain level.



All in all, despite being now retrograde, BG1 was superior in every respect. I could identify with Imoen, she was a fun character to play, I can't identify with Liliana, all she need do is look at a trap and it's disabled with a magic stare. And she still remains invis! She doesn't need to do a runner as Imoen did.



Sadly, I now have to play the BG series again in order to quench my D&D appetite. Memory leaks have made it impossible to finish the game. Such fun!


#198
Gliese

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I have thought about this issue and for me personally I think DAO would have been a greater game in my eyes were it not for BG. I guess it's the same for anyone who's parent(s) is really famous for something and they're trying to follow in their footsteps.
I think DAO has great potential it just doesn't live up to it on all accounts. With that said it took me 128 hrs on my first playthrough and that easilly beats most games hands down if you look at hours of entertainment per dollar.

Here are some thoughts I have on DAO compared to BG2 when it comes to linearity, story progression and character development:

Both the BG games are fairly open compared to DAO. Even though BG2 was not as open in exploration as BG1 it had alot more freedom almost from the start in where to go and how to approach things. But on top of that BG2 does a much better job at giving me the illusion of nonlinearity because I'm constantly travelling back and forth. Many of the sections had me going from place to place and coming back to areas that I had visited previously that had now changed. This made the world seem more alive.

An example of this: Travelling outside the city for the first time you encounter a poisoned NPC that wants you to take him back to the city. Now if you're not an evil douchebag you're going to comply, possibly after asking him for some sort of reward if you're greedy.
This puts in a break in your current objective where a new more important objective has come up, saving this man's life. After getting back to the city the location you take the man to has changed. There's a house where you drop him of that you can now explore and where you can now interact with new characters.
This sort of thing happens alot in BG2.
In DAO in contrast you generally move from one spot to another, first through the origin then Ostagar and the wilds moving on to Lothering and then you generally deal with one area of the time, collecting treaties. This makes the world feel much more on rails like you're doing deliveries going by a checklist. You can mix up the order you do some of the stuff but it all feels a bit sectioned off and isolated from each other. It's almost like you're visiting different worlds that have no direct relation to each other. The elves have their world, the dwarves their world and so on.

Concering characters I have to agree with those that think the DAO characters are more developed overall than the BG2 characters. That is not to say that you might subjectively find the particular personalities or styles of some BG2 characters more appealing to you personally, in fact I personally do care for some BG2 characters more than any of the DAO characters, but I think in terms of actual material and the means of presentation and emotional impact, the DAO characters have just been developed more thoroughly (as in time spent by the devs writing them) and the technology utilized in 3D cutscenes to create an emotional connection with the player is just superior.

However.. and here I agree with some previous posters, the way your relationships unfolds in DAO is generally inferior to how it is handled in BG2. The problem is similar to that in Mass Effect in that the NPCs are totally passive in this regard and it all boils down to "interviews" conducted with them in between missions. In contrast in BG2 npcs will actively initiate conversations between you and each other and will draw you in to them as you travel along, this does so much to make it feel like you have an actual party of different individuals that have opinions not just on your actions but on each other as well.
On top of that I feel that the silent pc just doesn't work as well in DAO as it does in BG2. For one all of your companions dialogue is spoken not just some and more importantly you're constantly treated to cutscenes and animated dialogue where you see them talk, give different body & facial expressions and so on at the same time as you see your own character mutely starring at this or that. It works ok for a time but as the game goes on it becomes increasingly jarring to me, particularly if I've been playing a very social character yet he never says a word.
I know he says alot all the time but the fact that I see his mute face time and again contrasted against the speech of everyone else around him makes me feel like my character is very quiet and withdrawn. Even though I mentally know that this is not the case, this is what I feel emotionally. I understand all the reasons for not having PC VO and I agree with them for the most part since I can't think of a really good solution of the top of my head but I feel it is an issue that needs to be resolved somehow for the immersion factor to keep pace with technology.

Another problem in DAO is the gift and approval system. I wonder how many have actually seen their relationships drop very low with a character. I imagine you'd have to go really out of your way to do so. On a recent playthrough my evil character killed one of his allies for no reason whatsoever and this got a grand total of approval shift of -3 from Alistair when I felt it should probably be something like -30. This in itself wouldn't be a terrible flaw if it wasn't for the gift system totally breaking with the idea that your choices ingame has an impact of your relationships with your companions. You can act against a npc's wishes in more or less every conversation in the game and still have them love you as long as you keep throwing gifts at them. The philosophy here seems to be very forgiving of the player and ensuring that they can run any party with any type of character despite the fact that it was advertised that you'd have to be careful about your decisions because they would have a big impact on followers.
Now it wasn't really hard to please followers in BG2 either in general but it seems to me that there were alot more occasions where the outcome of a single decision or event could cost you a follower. For example romantic interests fighting over you, characters fighting between themselves. I remember being attacked by Jaheira when I went against my word and killed an innocent to obtain an item he had promised as a reward for helping him with a dangerous quest for example.
I think there are some similar situations in DAO but I would say that party management in general in BG2 was more difficult and to me more enjoyable. I want npcs that fight with me, get upset, throw tantrums, threaten me and so on. These emotions are great for a RPG and should come to the fore when so much is at stake in the game world.

Heh, guess I have alot of stuff to write on the subject. I originally planned to do a long list of different comparisons but I'll stop here for now and maybe consider some other areas later.

Modifié par Gliese, 23 mars 2010 - 06:07 .


#199
Eelke Spaak

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This point has probably been made in this thread, and/or in some other, but still. The main problem I had with DAO is that the story is just so bland and predictable. There are some evil demons who want to destroy the world and it is my task to stop them. Why these demons want to destroy the world, no one knows! That is just completely psychologically unrealistic. Even in a fantasy setting, actions and events should follow logically from premises. Furthermore, with the game *begininning* with such an epic quest (how could it be more epic?), what room is there for further development?



In BG, all I had to go one was my recently murdered foster father's dying words that it was imperative that I make my way to the Friendly Arms Inn. Along the way, I learned of an iron shortage, and before I knew what was causing the iron shortage, many many hours of gameplay had passed. Only at the very end of BG did we learn of of the overall story arc, suddenly making everything fall into place: the PC is a child of Baal, and other Baalspawn are competing with him to take their father's place.



So, while the gameplay of DAO is wonderful, the game as a whole just misses the point of an RPG: enthralling story development.

#200
Haexpane

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roadie82 wrote...

its a case of nostaligia. remeber Thundercats? yeah, it was awesome, so was GI Joe,

. I love the fallout series, .


I hated Thundercats and GI Joe when I was a kid, horrible cartoons.  I liked Empire STrikes Back, and HATED Ewoks, even then as a kid I was thinking "These should be Wookies, wtf w/ the dorfs!"

Nostalgia means you might look back more fondly of things past, but it doesnt mean I liked crappy things when I was young.  Yars Revenge was awesome then, it's awesome now.  ET was terrible on day one.  Atari PacMan port was awful the moment I touched it.

Fallout 1, it's exactly what it is, it's no worse or better over the years.

I thought AD&D Cartoon was "ok, should have been darker" when I was a kid, that's exactly how I look at it now.