124 réponses à ce sujet

[Elfseeker]

You got wardens and assorted soldiers as the anvil, and a flood of dark demons coming out of the forest. you sit at the head of an army set to charge in an decimate a sizeable portion of the enemy once they've been pulled into the fight....and you pull away. I never DID get explained how Loggy got away with that, short of every soldier there(or at least all the ones he ended up with back in Denerim, having 'lost' all the ones with brains and sense of decency) being a lamebrained, spineless idiot or just plain malicious/a king-hater.

You proceed to not only leave the area, letting the darkspawn slaughter your supposed friends and allies, and continued to flood into the land from wherever they come. Without soldiers in place, they will continue to flood the land until they can knock on your door over in the far north end of the map. So obviously you do -not- ride off alone to gather forces, you take them all with you, -AND- you pluck along the ones that might have stood a chance at letting people actually getting away from Lothering(and not be taken advantage of by the miscellaneous mudcrawlers of humanity).

You have an invasion, you do NOT let them have free run of the country if you can at all help it. And back then, they were still reasonably 'gathered' around a small area, and not -covering the bloody country-.
There is being blind to reason for 'fear' of invasion under a cover of aid, and there is being plain stupid.

He wants to keep Ferelden safe? Then he should have set up camp in and around Lothering, sent his messengers or gone himself to gather forces. Who could argue with sending aid to hold back darkspawn? 

I am all for keeping things 'interesting' and 'exiting', but that bit from the intro has me annoyed every time. He's basically telling the darkspawn to 'come on in. At least you're not orlesians. my land is your land. Go ahead.'
Interest and exitement should never be produced to the detriment of logic and reason....unless of course one portrays the evil overlord or one of his lieutenants. L is not supposed to be either.

Thank you.

[Addai]

Having left Cailan to die, Loghain needed to march quickly to Denerim to seize the throne (edit: recall Anora's "...and seized the throne before the king's body was even cold"). Assuming he really believed what he was saying, he did not think it a real Blight, did not take the darkspawn threat seriously, and probably figured that he would kill two birds with one stone by letting the king's men and Grey Wardens on the one side and the darkspawn on the other mutually slaughter each other.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 12:09 .

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

Having left Cailan to die, Loghain needed to march quickly to Denerim to seize the throne (edit: recall Anora's "...and seized the throne before the king's body was even cold"). Assuming he really believed what he was saying, he did not think it a real Blight, did not take the darkspawn threat seriously, and probably figured that he would kill two birds with one stone by letting the king's men and Grey Wardens on the one side and the darkspawn on the other mutually slaughter each other.

This. Loghain didn't think it was a true blight because he didn't see a archdemon.

[SusanStoHelit]

And he was paranoid delusional - so logic has no bearing on his decisions, except insofar as that logic fitted his delusions.

[Ameraudur_]

That is why after multiple playthroughs, I haven't yet been able to do the Landsmeet without killing Loghain....

[darkmax1974]

I killed Loghain so I did not know what would he say when he is part of the team fighting the archdemon. Anyone?

[flixerflax]

I really thought we would get to understand Loghain's deeper motivations more (maybe I'll add him to the party next play through and talk to him) but it ended up just being extreme paranoia of the Orlesians. With that in mind, most of his decisions make 'sense'. Cailin wants the help of Orlesian wardens, he needs to die. Anora wants to call for the aid of Orlesian troops, she needs to be locked away, etc.

[Monica21]

flixerflax wrote...

I really thought we would get to understand Loghain's deeper motivations more (maybe I'll add him to the party next play through and talk to him) but it ended up just being extreme paranoia of the Orlesians. With that in mind, most of his decisions make 'sense'. Cailin wants the help of Orlesian wardens, he needs to die. Anora wants to call for the aid of Orlesian troops, she needs to be locked away, etc.

If you read The Stolen Throne, you get much better insight into Loghain's paranoia. In my opinion, it's not wholely unwarranted.

[SusanStoHelit]

Monica21 wrote...

If you read The Stolen Throne, you get much better insight into Loghain's paranoia. In my opinion, it's not wholely unwarranted.

I'm reading it right now. Of course Loghain had reasons for his paranoia, in that something triggered it. It doesn't mean his actions were either correct or even sane. They weren't.

[Maria Caliban]

Loghain had reasons to dislike and distrust the Orlesians. There's no reason for his paranoia though, by definition it's irrational. If you notice, the Emmon also fought the Orlesians and still ended up taking one as his wife.

Even after you beat Loghain at the landsmeet and head off to fight the dorkspawn, he's paranoid about having Leliana in the group. He expresses utter disbelief that many Orlesians find him a dashing, noble figure.

[SusanStoHelit]

True Maria, I was imprecise in my terminology, by bad, mea culpa. ;-)

[Monica21]

While I wouldn't say there's "reason" for his paranoia, I do understand it.



And is Eamon specifically mentioned as fighting Orlesians? He was fifteen when Maric first showed up in Redcliffe and I don't recall him being mentioned after that. If he did, his experience was most certainly not the same as Loghain's.

[ENCHANTMENTSSS]

In my personal opinion I believe Loggy suffered from at least 2 serious delusions.
1. Paranoia, which has already been discussed in regards to the Orlesians. He bled and killed to do everything to get rid of them and still after all these years still holds an innate fear and hatred for them which he would most likely take to his grave.
2. Grandeur
He was the hero of Ferelden and helped rid the land of the Orlesians. Now whether he just wanted to play hero again or was just plain overconfident in his abilities to lead an army to victory I'm not 100% sure. At the Landsmeet he does say "Join me and we shall defeat even the Blight itself." So it appears by this time he has acknowledged the fact that it is a blight and still refuses the help of the Grey Wardens because he of course is not aware of their importance in the defeat of a Blight.
I think Loghain was actually expecting all the arl's armies to rally around him and did not expect civil war to break out, Eamon being the exception. He believed he would gather a much larger army and march out of Denerim and mow the Darkspawn like grass under his banner with his own tactics and strategy that worked against the Orlesians rather than the one big battle the bards would sing about for centuries.  In the end he believed Cailin to be a weak or unworthy king whether it be militarily or what have you.  Loghain had to do what he did for the good of the kingdom because he loved and fought for it, at least that was what was going through his mind.
As for quitting the field, history is plagued with such kings/leaders/etc who have done such things on either a larger or smaller scale for XYZ reasons. So it's not that far fetched as some may believe.
Any thoughts?

Modifié par ENCHANTMENTSSS, 17 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[David Gaider]

From my perspective, Loghain suffered from the idea that only he knew what was best for Ferelden. Only he saw the truth, and had the ability to act. To him, the ends always justified the means.



When he finally saw that he had made a mistake (and he did, once the fact of a Blight became clear) he still felt he had to move forward. Who else was there to take his place? The fact that the player eventually stepped forward came as a profound relief, in a strange kind of way. Here was someone who could do what he could not, someone who had not made the mistakes he had -- someone who could safeguard Ferelden in a way that Cailan simply could not.



It might seem that Loghain seems to think very highly of himself, but that's only partially true. He never enjoyed being the hero -- or at least that's what he liked to believe. I imagine even the most reluctant hero gets used to hearing it after a while. Pride can do funny things to a person. And he was accustomed to being the person who handled everything that needed handling, doing all the things that Maric couldn't bring himself to do or never wanted to see.



And in the end, this is where Loghain was undone. He was so accustomed to fighting demons he saw them even when they weren't there. He's a general for a war that was no longer being fought, and he didn't really accept the idea that darkspawn -- a fairy tale foe -- could ever be more of a threat to Ferelden's security than Orlais. It'd be like trying to convince a Cold War-era general that Communism isn't the greatest threat facing America. To Loghain, the darkspawn were a threat that could be handled later -- the Orlesian threat had to be countered *first* -- and in his mind he was doing the wrong things for the right reasons... until they weren't any longer.



Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

[DalishRanger]

David Gaider wrote...

Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

Careful, Mr. Gaider... Some crazy fanboy or girl out there might purposely misconstrue that and write some rather frightening fanfiction.

[Monica21]

David Gaider wrote...
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

Even though I understand why Alistair walks out of the Landsmeet, after reading this I wish even more that there was a way to keep them both.

[Burningwolf]

His sense of character building in the game itself fell kinda flat.Ok...yea He's a brilliant General.He pulled a Palpatine and had to be put down like a blight sick dog.I never have a problem with or feel a twinge of guilt for putting him to the sword.



Mabey if he was better fleshed out in game.For the record No I havent read the books.I will if I stumble over them ,but I'm not actively looking for them.

[Monica21]

Burningwolf wrote...

His sense of character building in the game itself fell kinda flat.Ok...yea He's a brilliant General.He pulled a Palpatine and had to be put down like a blight sick dog.I never have a problem with or feel a twinge of guilt for putting him to the sword.

Mabey if he was better fleshed out in game.For the record No I havent read the books.I will if I stumble over them ,but I'm not actively looking for them.

Unfortunately, you really don't get a good sense of who Loghain is from just the game, but unless you're replaying the events of the books, you're unlikely to. I really recommend reading them if you do see them.

Modifié par Monica21, 17 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[sylvanaerie]

I like keeping him in the role of "Villian" though I know that is too simple a description of him. I don't even think of him as an anti-hero, he just seemed to be caught up in a combination of the hero hype and supreme paranoia about the Orlesians. He never makes it out of the Landsmeet alive for me though I once reloaded to see what happens if you spare him. I didn't like the outcome, for tanking I much prefer Alistair. Plus Al is with you from the beginning, it just seems wrong to me to drop him for Loghain at that point in time even if you aren't romancing Alistair.



I guess the old adage is true, Pride goeth before a fall...and when you lift yourself so high, well you got a LOOOOONG way to fall.

[Leonia]

The books do Loghain a lot more justice, especially The Stolen Throne (he plays a very minor role in Calling). That said, I still don't like him much, but I respect where he is coming from and why he is the way he is.

Modifié par leonia42, 17 février 2010 - 07:34 .

[MOTpoetryION]

I have to say i have yet allowed the ending where loghain makes the killing blow . I felt he did to many wrongs of late to be thought of forever as a hero. If it prevents me from seeing all endings and missing out on my achievment, oh well. As it is i have let him live only once.

[Walina]

Elfseeker wrote...

You got wardens and assorted soldiers as the anvil, and a flood of dark demons coming out of the forest. you sit at the head of an army set to charge in an decimate a sizeable portion of the enemy once they've been pulled into the fight....and you pull away. I never DID get explained how Loggy got away with that, short of every soldier there(or at least all the ones he ended up with back in Denerim, having 'lost' all the ones with brains and sense of decency) being a lamebrained, spineless idiot or just plain malicious/a king-hater.

You proceed to not only leave the area, letting the darkspawn slaughter your supposed friends and allies, and continued to flood into the land from wherever they come. Without soldiers in place, they will continue to flood the land until they can knock on your door over in the far north end of the map. So obviously you do -not- ride off alone to gather forces, you take them all with you, -AND- you pluck along the ones that might have stood a chance at letting people actually getting away from Lothering(and not be taken advantage of by the miscellaneous mudcrawlers of humanity).

You have an invasion, you do NOT let them have free run of the country if you can at all help it. And back then, they were still reasonably 'gathered' around a small area, and not -covering the bloody country-.
There is being blind to reason for 'fear' of invasion under a cover of aid, and there is being plain stupid.

He wants to keep Ferelden safe? Then he should have set up camp in and around Lothering, sent his messengers or gone himself to gather forces. Who could argue with sending aid to hold back darkspawn? 

I am all for keeping things 'interesting' and 'exiting', but that bit from the intro has me annoyed every time. He's basically telling the darkspawn to 'come on in. At least you're not orlesians. my land is your land. Go ahead.'
Interest and exitement should never be produced to the detriment of logic and reason....unless of course one portrays the evil overlord or one of his lieutenants. L is not supposed to be either.

Thank you.

Nothing to be surprised about in any rpg you always have the last boss acting like that, waiting for you to come smash him, lol <3 (same for the archedemon).

Though, a bit a waste how Loghain turned cause he was a hero who freed Ferelden from Orlais.

[Maria Caliban]

Monica21 wrote...

Unfortunately, you really don't get a good sense of who Loghain is from just the game, but unless you're replaying the events of the books, you're unlikely to. I really recommend reading them if you do see them.

I read the first book. I think you get just as good a sense of Loghain from the game as you do from the Stolen Throne.

[Monica21]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Unfortunately, you really don't get a good sense of who Loghain is from just the game, but unless you're replaying the events of the books, you're unlikely to. I really recommend reading them if you do see them.

I read the first book. I think you get just as good a sense of Loghain from the game as you do from the Stolen Throne.

Considering the game gives you next to no background on Loghain except for driving the Orlesians out of Ferelden at River Dane, I have to respectfully disagree. The game makes him look like a scheming opportunist, but in the context of the books, he becomes someone who, once again, has to save Ferelden by himself.

[Chas1024]

From an rp point of view you should probably only read the books if you go for the human noble origin. The Dwarves and Dalish have no intersest in Ferelden politics. I doubt the City Elves find life so much better once freed from the Orlesiann yoke. And if you spend your whole life locked in a tower being watched by Templars do you really care who is in charge in Denerim.