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[Maria Caliban]

Monica21 wrote...

The game makes him look like a scheming opportunist...

Right. Just like the Stolen Throne.

I read though the book going, "I'm sure at some point, someone will call this dude on his BS... any time now... any time... okay, maybe we'll get a reason he's a weasel?.. nope.. and the book is done."

From soup to nuts, Loghain is the dark and moody jerkface who's convinced he knows all.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 février 2010 - 09:39 .

[Elfseeker]

He is supposed to know his way around a battlefield anyhoo, yes? so when he sees that the enemy gets more numerous every time, -despite- likely being all but eradicated every time they attack(don't see darkspawn retreating, much), why would he think them to be finished with that last battle?

He should have left the guard at Lothering, at the very least, as, when they spread, they would go there first, like as not.



Or, perish the thought, did he think they were simply fighting to defend territory and would stop as soon as humans, elves and suchlike left the area?



And as time goes by without a peep from the 'real' enemy that's supposedly ready to burst over their borders...One grand victory does not a champion make.



As an aside, I find it annoying as well that the only way to actually -discuss- things with Cauthrien is to end up killing her. If you persuade, that's it. She bends knee and begs for his life. that's it.

I find her an immensely interesting character, very poorly used. Just such a thing as letting her be there to converse the pc after he/she gets locked up. Possibly inquiring as to the 'whole story' you would have claimed she did not know...?



Bioware used to do good, solid, -complete- stuff. This...is not it. Far too many shortcuts and missed opportunities for proper roleplay and enhanced immersion.



Hoping the game will look and feel more complete once DA2 will have been around a while.

[Sabriana]

Monica21 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Unfortunately, you really don't get a good sense of who Loghain is from just the game, but unless you're replaying the events of the books, you're unlikely to. I really recommend reading them if you do see them.

I read the first book. I think you get just as good a sense of Loghain from the game as you do from the Stolen Throne.

Considering the game gives you next to no background on Loghain except for driving the Orlesians out of Ferelden at River Dane, I have to respectfully disagree. The game makes him look like a scheming opportunist, but in the context of the books, he becomes someone who, once again, has to save Ferelden by himself.

Yes, true. The game doesn't give enough insight into his personality, but reading the book does indeed. His hatred is shown as valid, and his paranoia can be understood.

I was very touched by his speech before sacrificing himself. Even when in the PC party he never makes it clearer than there that he only wanted Ferelden to be safe and independant.

[AndreaDraco]

David Gaider wrote...
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

I must say, after reading The Stolen Throne, that I'm beginning to really like Loghain. Before, I liked to hate him - in that I found him a great but despisable character -, but now I'm really liking him, even if he's flawed and paranoid, even if let Howe poison his mind, even if he thought that leaving Cailan was the right thing to do, even if he was planning a coup, even if he made all the wrong choices. He's very human, and I like that.

[sylvanaerie]

As a character I like him. He's actually well written as is and people can draw so many conclusions about him both good or bad. And some may actually be truer than others. As a person I want to trust my back to in a fight? No. He dies in Landsmeet every time. I would like to think were the shoe on the other foot and Alistair wanted to spare him and I didn't, Al would side with me. Letting him live to die a hero in the final battle leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am VERY loyal to those I call friend.

[melkathi]

There is one bit towards the end of The Calling which for me made all the missing pieces of Loghain's character fall into place.

SPOILER from the book:
It's when he says:

"Know you were here? I didn't know that. What I knew was that the Orlesians would betray you, and I was right."
...
"I have been watching for the fool to make his move, and he did."

That's Loghain: he saves the day because of his paranoia.  Because he was certain there was an orlesian plot. And he was right. And there was no darkspawn threat there in his eyes, just Orlais using unspeakable methods to strike at Ferelden.

[Sabriana]

My PC killed him off only once. She was a poor, misguided mage who didn't pick up on all the hints throughout the game and thought that she and Alistair had a future.

Since then, Loghain lives, but he will be the one slaying the archdemon.

He was a hero once. He suffered greatly to restore Ferelden's independence. He was the savior of the rebellion, personally, I don't doubt that it would have failed without him.

Yes, he messes up, and boy, does he mess up in DA:O. But my PCs can't overlook the fact that Ferelden has a lot to thank him for, and he should have the right to redeem himself in the end.

I like to think that Alistair will take the reigns, and prevent Anora from letting the 'daddy worship' get out of hand.

[Zy-El]

I've killed Loghain in the prev 2 playthroughs. But I'm beginning to think he might be more useful as an ally. Alistair cannot see beyond his own need for vengeance to allow Loghain to live. I ask myself - what would Duncan do in this situation?

I wonder if Duncan would make the most of Loghain by using him as a general in the army against the Blight. If Loghain becomes a Grey Warden and can bring that same fanaticism to the GW cause, the Blight would not stand a chance. I almost feel like Darth Vader - "what if he could be turned to the Dark side? He would be a powerful ally."

I think I'll let him live in the next playthrough . . . I might even take him back to Ostogar and make him bury the King he betrayed.  That would be fitting penance.

Modifié par Zy-El, 17 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[Monica21]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

The game makes him look like a scheming opportunist...

Right. Just like the Stolen Throne.

I read though the book going, "I'm sure at some point, someone will call this dude on his BS... any time now... any time... okay, maybe we'll get a reason he's a weasel?.. nope.. and the book is done."

From soup to nuts, Loghain is the dark and moody jerkface who's convinced he knows all.

The difference is that in The Stolen Throne, he actually did know all.

[Addai]

AndreaDraco wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

I must say, after reading The Stolen Throne, that I'm beginning to really like Loghain. Before, I liked to hate him - in that I found him a great but despisable character -, but now I'm really liking him, even if he's flawed and paranoid, even if let Howe poison his mind, even if he thought that leaving Cailan was the right thing to do, even if he was planning a coup, even if he made all the wrong choices. He's very human, and I like that.

Even when you think about how Rowan saved him, when it would likely have been for the greater good if he and his men had been sacrificed?  And then when it comes time for him to do the same for Rowan's son, he leaves him to die at the hands of darkspawn?  No, for me the books only make it clear how far Loghain has fallen. 

Leaving Cailan out of it entirely, he left hundreds of his countrymen- common men just fighting for their country- to be slaughtered, their bodies to be eaten, survivors to be dragged underground to Maker knows what fate.  To me there is no redemption for him.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 04:13 .

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

I must say, after reading The Stolen Throne, that I'm beginning to really like Loghain. Before, I liked to hate him - in that I found him a great but despisable character -, but now I'm really liking him, even if he's flawed and paranoid, even if let Howe poison his mind, even if he thought that leaving Cailan was the right thing to do, even if he was planning a coup, even if he made all the wrong choices. He's very human, and I like that.

Even when you think about how Rowan saved him, when it would likely have been for the greater good if he and his men had been sacrificed?  And then when it comes time for him to do the same for Rowan's son, he leaves him to die at the hands of darkspawn?  No, for me the books only make it clear how far Loghain has fallen. 

Leaving Cailan out of it entirely, he left hundreds of his countrymen- common men just fighting for their country- to be slaughtered, their bodies to be eaten, survivors to be dragged underground to Maker knows what fate.  To me there is no redemption for him.

I know this was directed at someone else, but while "like" is too strong a word, I understand his actions better. It's hard to get to know a character through a few cutscenes, and while your point about Rowan saving him is reasonable, the situations are different. She knew she had backup, and she knew she could reach him in time. Two things that Loghain didn't have at Ostagar. If anything, the book makes me believe even more that it couldn't have been won if only because I don't believe he would have left Rowan's son to die.

And yes, retreating is difficult, but retreats are militarily necessary sometimes. It doesn't mean you don't care about the people you're leaving behind, it means that throwing yourself into battle is not going to win it.

[Harcken]

David Gaider wrote..
And in the end, this is where Loghain was undone. He was so accustomed to fighting demons he saw them even when they weren't there. He's a general for a war that was no longer being fought, and he didn't really accept the idea that darkspawn -- a fairy tale foe -- could ever be more of a threat to Ferelden's security than Orlais. It'd be like trying to convince a Cold War-era general that Communism isn't the greatest threat facing America. To Loghain, the darkspawn were a threat that could be handled later -- the Orlesian threat had to be countered *first* -- and in his mind he was doing the wrong things for the right reasons... until they weren't any longer.

Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

I really wish there was more of this characterization in game. Part of the problem with Loghain is, especially if we haven't read the books, we have one conversation with him and get the feeling he's an uber tactitian, then like 20 minutes later, he completely dooms the army and I know I was just going "wtf?"

[maxernst]

Monica21 wrote...

Two things that Loghain didn't have at Ostagar. If anything, the book makes me believe even more that it couldn't have been won if only because I don't believe he would have left Rowan's son to die.

And yes, retreating is difficult, but retreats are militarily necessary sometimes. It doesn't mean you don't care about the people you're leaving behind, it means that throwing yourself into battle is not going to win it.

I think Anora is in a far better position to judge that retreat than I am.  She was there, and she certainly knows Loghain far better than I do...if she thinks he could leave Callan to die, I believe her.

I've said elsewhere that the best, most healing ending for Ferelden is the Loghain sacrifice with a hardened Alistair married to Anora on the throne.  But it's a crappy ending for Alistair, and doubly so for a PC that romances him.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...
I know this was directed at someone else, but while "like" is too strong a word, I understand his actions better. It's hard to get to know a character through a few cutscenes, and while your point about Rowan saving him is reasonable, the situations are different. She knew she had backup, and she knew she could reach him in time. Two things that Loghain didn't have at Ostagar. If anything, the book makes me believe even more that it couldn't have been won if only because I don't believe he would have left Rowan's son to die.

And yes, retreating is difficult, but retreats are militarily necessary sometimes. It doesn't mean you don't care about the people you're leaving behind, it means that throwing yourself into battle is not going to win it.

Granted I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall Rowan did not know she would reach him in time, and she knew she was risking her own forces by trying to rescue Loghain.  She was risking the whole rebellion, and leaving Maric to fend for himself.  Whereas Loghain did not have a clear view of the battlefield at Ostagar, so he could not have known that the battle was lost.

Edit:  Ironically, the battle where Rowan rescues Loghain is an interesting juxtaposition of Ostagar.  There, she was the one who was supposed to attack the flank in support of Maric.  She "retreated," but did so in order to save Loghain.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[melkathi]

maxernst wrote...

I think Anora is in a far better position to judge that retreat than I am.  She was there, and she certainly knows Loghain far better than I do...if she thinks he could leave Callan to die, I believe her.

I've said elsewhere that the best, most healing ending for Ferelden is the Loghain sacrifice with a hardened Alistair married to Anora on the throne.  But it's a crappy ending for Alistair, and doubly so for a PC that romances him.

Come again?
Anora was where?

[Manatel]

David Gaider wrote...

Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

You're definitely not the only one with an unholy love for him :-) Easily my favorite character in The Stolen Throne.


I've even gone into the Landsmeet planning to execute him and ended up recruiting him. His voice actor is just brilliant, and I find his "Where were you ..." speech after he loses the Landsmeet to be especially convincing.


And although I won't defend his timely retreat, I get the impression that some people think everyone would have been saved had he not retreated.

Modifié par Manatel, 17 février 2010 - 07:01 .

[Addai]

Harcken wrote...

I really wish there was more of this characterization in game. Part of the problem with Loghain is, especially if we haven't read the books, we have one conversation with him and get the feeling he's an uber tactitian, then like 20 minutes later, he completely dooms the army and I know I was just going "wtf?"

I'm not sure how they could do this, other than emphasizing numerous times that Cailan and Loghain fought over the Orlesians and the darkspawn threat.  I never thought about it before, but Cailan's underrating of the darkspawn threat must have been influenced by Loghain's underrating of it.

[maxernst]

melkathi wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I think Anora is in a far better position to judge that retreat than I am.  She was there, and she certainly knows Loghain far better than I do...if she thinks he could leave Callan to die, I believe her.

I've said elsewhere that the best, most healing ending for Ferelden is the Loghain sacrifice with a hardened Alistair married to Anora on the throne.  But it's a crappy ending for Alistair, and doubly so for a PC that romances him.

Come again?
Anora was where?

Was that Ser Cauthrien in the cut scene when Loghain called the retreat?  For some reason, I thought it was Anora.  But in any event, the main point is she certainly knows Loghain better than I do.

[wonko33]

i am also surprised he let the son of Maric and Rowan die, he did many illogical things for these two in the Stolen Throne.



I haven't b finished landsmeet in any of my 3 playthroughs but I had started the game when I read the book and all through the book I was thinking "and you're going to betray their son?"



All I have to say is " Loghain your dad would be ashamed"



As for what D Gaider said about always liking Loghain, for me it was Leske, I wish I could have saved him.

[Addai]

wonko33 wrote...

All I have to say is " Loghain your dad would be ashamed"

QFT

[CalJones]

I have to admit Loghain is easily my favourite character in the game, but then I have a thing for tragic villains and fallen heros (I have a similar love for Sarevok in BG).



What bothers me about DA:O is that we know at the start Loghain is this great hero - one that your character could feasibly look up to or even idolise (one of the reasons I really wish there was a human commoner origin) and be completely confused by his actions rather than just condemning him at every opportunity.



Alistair is all too quick to blame him for Duncan and Cailan's deaths following Flemeth's rescue - all based on the eye witness report of a shifty witch he does not even trust.

At this point in the game I'd be saying "hang on a moment - we know we were late lighting the beacon, so how do you know for certain that Loghain betrayed the king? He's the hero of Fereldan - if he quit the field then it must have been for a very good reason."

Unfortunately, all the conversation options are along the lines of "I'll get that meddling Loghain (shakes fist)".



Of course, you then get to Lothering and find out he's put a bounty on Grey Wardens, but I'd really love some more neutral/questioning conversation options - for instance, when you meet those soldiers in the tavern and have the option of telling them to take a message to Loghain, I would have loved to select "tell him I'm not his enemy."



The Loghain redemption ending is my favourite too - it's a fitting end for someone of his stature. I executed him once, in my first playthrough, and it felt like murder. Taking the life of a national hero without even giving him a chance to explain his actions makes no sense to me. It is indeed a real pity that executing Loghain is the only way you get to keep Alistair, but Alistair's embarrassing tantrum made the choice very easy for me. Up to that point I really liked him. Now he gets hardened and married off to Anora instead. Better to keep the only Theirin heir safe and away from the archdemon, anyway.

[Tasmen]

wonko33 wrote...

i am also surprised he let the son of Maric and Rowan die, he did many illogical things for these two in the Stolen Throne.

Honestly, after reading 'The Stolen Throne', I'm not surprised at all.  He let many men die to save Maric at West Hill.  Maric was quite upset with him for doing that -- to save one man.

Loghain was in a similiar situation at Ostagar.  He could sacrafice his forces to save Cailan and some other men or he could save his entire force and leave a fight he did not see that they could win (because I want to believe that it was a futile fight in his eyes).

I had thought Loghain was an interesting character before reading the "The Stolen Throne".  After reading the book, I began to realize just how interesting and truly tragic a character he is and I my 'unholy' love was born.

[Addai]

For those who think Loghain made a tactical decision at Ostagar, how are you assuming that he knew the battle was lost? He did not have a full view of the battlefield.  (Edit:  Please consider Cauthrien's reaction when answering.)

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[NKKKK]

I share your Love David.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Understanding his actions and reasoning is fascinating. he is an interesting character.



However, it has not improved his survivability rate at Landsmeet. he dies, then and there, pure and simply, in all but one playthrough. My fitting end for him is to die in disgrace at the business end of my sword, because no matter who or what he saved in the past, he doomed far more to something far worse than an Orlesian occupation. Amongst other reasons, depending on the origin and character I play.



he reminds me too much of those generals and defense advisors during the cold war who were thinking of drafting self-destruct plans for North America and Europe, in the case of imminent Soviet invasion, nukes would be launched to wipe out the country rather than let "the evil reds" have even a square foot of it.



Which is the mentality Loghain seems to reflect: let the Blight ravage the country, destroying the land and everything on it, making it unlivable for generations, but we can't let those orlesians set foot in...



What makes Loghain to dangerous to live, for me, is not that he thinks as such, but that he has the legend and cult of personality to inspire others to his way of thinking.