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[Curlain]

Indeed Cathurien is the very symbol of this devotion to Loghain's cult of personality, deep down she knows what he's doing is wrong both morally and for Ferelden. But she pushes aside or own beliefs and sense of justice, honour and ultimately loyalty to Ferelden to for loyalty to Loghain, because he 'must know best' as his image has made him seem god (or Maker) like. To her he can't be wrong, she must be, so she goes along with him. A dangerous man because of this (united with his paranoia and his own belief in his legend and unfallibility)

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

For those who think Loghain made a tactical decision at Ostagar, how are you assuming that he knew the battle was lost? He did not have a full view of the battlefield.  (Edit:  Please consider Cauthrien's reaction when answering.)

There are a lot of things about Ostagar that bother me and I don't have answers for. Cailan apparently didn't think the battle could be won but he put himself on the front lines. There's a line of dialogue you can get in the Tower when Alistair asks what the darkspawn are doing there and one response which I think is based on cunning is "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they know the plan?" Where did that come from and what in the world is the player supposed to take away from that? Since Loghain's men were supposedly securing the Tower, how did they get inside and did Loghain have anything to do with it?

He did have a limited view of the battlefield, but the beacon was lit too late. Loghain may not have been able to see the signal to light the beacon from his vantage point, but that doesn't mean he didn't know he was outnumbered, and I do believe he was.

[goofygoff]

David Gaider wrote...

For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

As an unapologetic Loghain fangirl, I couldn't agree more. 

It seems like a lot of people don't like that ending because they don't want to see him die a hero.  And others like it because, to them, it's a fitting punishment.  I simply see it as letting someone atone for the wrongs they've committed.  Yes, yes...I'm a sucker for a good redemption story, especially when it involves such a complicated character.

And to further drive home my fangirlyness, I firmly believe he made a much better Grey Warden than Alistair ever did (and I say that as an Ali fan, as well), regardless of whether he made the ultimate sacrifice or not.  Alistair, while certainly entitled to his anger at the Landsmeet, allowed his need for vengence to overshadow the very thing he, as a GW, is supposed to do:  stop the Blight.  Loghain, for all his faults and past mistakes, is someone who has proven they will do what it takes, no matter the cost, to accomplish this.

[Monica21]

goofygoff wrote...
And to further drive home my fangirlyness, I firmly believe he made a much better Grey Warden than Alistair ever did (and I say that as an Ali fan, as well), regardless of whether he made the ultimate sacrifice or not.  Alistair, while certainly entitled to his anger at the Landsmeet, allowed his need for vengence to overshadow the very thing he, as a GW, is supposed to do:  stop the Blight.  Loghain, for all his faults and past mistakes, is someone who has proven they will do what it takes, no matter the cost, to accomplish this.

I mentioned this in a different thread, but playing as a HNF, I equate Alistair's desire for revenge with my own. If Arl Howe were placed in front of me and Riordan said he could be a Grey Warden or I could kill him, I'd still kill him. They didn't do the same things for the same reasons, but Alistair's driving force was to punish Loghain, and if I can get my revenge, who am I to deny it to Alistair?

[Addai]

goofygoff wrote...

And to further drive home my fangirlyness, I firmly believe he made a much better Grey Warden than Alistair ever did (and I say that as an Ali fan, as well), regardless of whether he made the ultimate sacrifice or not.  Alistair, while certainly entitled to his anger at the Landsmeet, allowed his need for vengence to overshadow the very thing he, as a GW, is supposed to do:  stop the Blight.  Loghain, for all his faults and past mistakes, is someone who has proven they will do what it takes, no matter the cost, to accomplish this.

Like allowing every Grey Warden in Ferelden to die and then sending out assassins and a bounty just in case he missed one?  That is quite a deathbed conversion to the Grey Warden oath.  Regardless of whether he believes at Ostagar that it actually is a Blight, even the possibility that it is should have rung an alarm bell or two.

Of course, he didn't really believe the Grey Wardens' claim that they were the only ones who could defeat a Blight, either.

[Tasmen]

Monica21 wrote...
He did have a limited view of the battlefield, but the beacon was lit too late. Loghain may not have been able to see the signal to light the beacon from his vantage point, but that doesn't mean he didn't know he was outnumbered, and I do believe he was.

This...  I've felt the same way about Ostagar.   As to Cauthrien's place in things, I still believe there was something more between Cauthrien and Loghain than we were told.  The way he grabs her hand at Ostagar ooozed of a special kind of familiarity to me.  I can't imagine Loghain grabbing just 'anyone' like that.  Nope.  

She also did not have the same battle experience as Loghain.  Her judgement != his judgment when it comes to appraising tacticle matters imho.   Now granted, Loghain was looking at things through Orlesian Hatred Tinted lenses.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Curlain wrote...

Indeed Cathurien is the very symbol of this devotion to Loghain's cult of personality, deep down she knows what he's doing is wrong both morally and for Ferelden. But she pushes aside or own beliefs and sense of justice, honour and ultimately loyalty to Ferelden to for loyalty to Loghain, because he 'must know best' as his image has made him seem god (or Maker) like. To her he can't be wrong, she must be, so she goes along with him. A dangerous man because of this (united with his paranoia and his own belief in his legend and unfallibility)

Excellent example. Cauthrien. Her hero worship of Loghain causes her to abandon good sense, ethics, and honor. Abaonding all that even though the reality becomes more and more impossible to ignore. And she ain't the only one, either. The Landsmeet is pretty much stacked against you before you start. it's up to you personally to do various side quests to convince the nobles and important people to turn against him. Otherwise, they will support him, even in the face of what he's doing, and what's happening. These aren't his faithful lieutenants, these are all men and women of power and authority who for one reason or another, are following him on a path of doom, and will continue to do so unless you hit them personally with something that forces them to your side (mainly personal things). Otherwise, they continue believing in Loghain's legend.

When i spared him once, I exhausted all dialogue options to get a feel of what he's thinking. I remember him saying that even knowing everything he knew now, he would not have done things differently. His only regret being not seeing that you were the "stronger" candidate sooner. 

And his little speech at Landsmeet? "Stand with me, and we can defeat the Blight itself!" Loghain never struck me as one for plattitudes and empty rallying speeches. Methinks the man is so self deluded, he believes his legend alone will defeat the Blight. Trust in legends...the same thing he accused Cailan of doing with the Wardens.

[Addai]

Tasmen wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
He did have a limited view of the battlefield, but the beacon was lit too late. Loghain may not have been able to see the signal to light the beacon from his vantage point, but that doesn't mean he didn't know he was outnumbered, and I do believe he was.

This...  I've felt the same way about Ostagar.   As to Cauthrien's place in things, I still believe there was something more between Cauthrien and Loghain than we were told.  The way he grabs her hand at Ostagar ooozed of a special kind of familiarity to me.  I can't imagine Loghain grabbing just 'anyone' like that.  Nope.  

She also did not have the same battle experience as Loghain.  Her judgement != his judgment when it comes to appraising tacticle matters imho.   Now granted, Loghain was looking at things through Orlesian Hatred Tinted lenses.

Cauthrien is a lifelong soldier and Loghain's protege.  When she tells your Warden "I wish I would have died at Ostagar", it's too bad there's not an option to respond, "I wish you'd have been in charge at Ostagar."

But I mention Cauthrien because her shocked reaction to Loghain's order is evidence, to my mind, that this was not a tactical decision at all.  If it was in any way obvious that the field was lost, she would not have been calmly standing there looking at the beacon and then saying (in so many words and non-verbally) "WTF?!" to Loghain's order.

And if you see any tenderness in Loghain grabbing Cauthrien's arm... I'm afraid there's really something you're seeing in him that I'm not...

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[CalJones]

Monica21 wrote...
There are a lot of things about Ostagar that bother me and I don't have answers for. Cailan apparently didn't think the battle could be won but he put himself on the front lines. There's a line of dialogue you can get in the Tower when Alistair asks what the darkspawn are doing there and one response which I think is based on cunning is "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they know the plan?" Where did that come from and what in the world is the player supposed to take away from that? Since Loghain's men were supposedly securing the Tower, how did they get inside and did Loghain have anything to do with it?

Cailan didn't think it was a proper Blight and the battles until that point had been won easily. He put himself on the front lines because he had fairytale notions of being a big hero and revelling in glory. He even expresses disappointment that an archdemon had not been sighted. He was a well-meaning fool.

Re: the tower, see David Gaider's post here: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250
The Darkspawn being in the tower was unforseen.

[Tasmen]

Addai67 wrote...

And if you see any tenderness in Loghain grabbing Cauthrien's arm... I'm afraid there's really something you're seeing in him that I'm not...

Tenderness?  No, I never actually used that word.  I don't think it was tenderness.  But I do think that there was something more between them than just commander & soldier and that we got a glimpse of it in a moment when he was angry that she questioned him.  Of all the people to question him, her?  Just seemed to hint that there was more going on beneath the surface than we were being shown/told about.  Definitely NOT tenderness.

[Monica21]

CalJones wrote...
Cailan didn't think it was a proper Blight and the battles until that point had been won easily. He put himself on the front lines because he had fairytale notions of being a big hero and revelling in glory. He even expresses disappointment that an archdemon had not been sighted. He was a well-meaning fool.

Re: the tower, see David Gaider's post here: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250
The Darkspawn being in the tower was unforseen.

Cailan had a dire misunderstanding of what a Blight was and how to defeat it. He did have fairytale notions, but he also did believe the Wardens. Loghain makes mention of it later, saying that it's not a true Blight "only Cailan's vanity demanded it be so." Cailan even brought Maric's sword, with which he intended to kill the Archdemon, not understanding that one had to be a Warden to kill it.

And thanks for the link, but that makes the dialogue choice in the tower that much more confusing.

[melkathi]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Excellent example. Cauthrien. Her hero worship of Loghain causes her to abandon good sense, ethics, and honor. Abaonding all that even though the reality becomes more and more impossible to ignore. And she ain't the only one, either. The Landsmeet is pretty much stacked against you before you start. it's up to you personally to do various side quests to convince the nobles and important people to turn against him. Otherwise, they will support him, even in the face of what he's doing, and what's happening. These aren't his faithful lieutenants, these are all men and women of power and authority who for one reason or another, are following him on a path of doom, and will continue to do so unless you hit them personally with something that forces them to your side (mainly personal things). Otherwise, they continue believing in Loghain's legend.

You can't really compare Cauthrien to the nobles in the Landsmeet. The nobles, you simply have to force to take notice of what he does. Then they will revoke their support. Furthermore, they know Loghain and do not know you (unless you are a Cousland, you are a complete nobody in their eyes).
If you show the banns prove that Loghain sold the elves as slaves to Tervinter, many will turn against him. If you show Cauthrien prove of the same, she will blame you for forcing him to do this.
The nobles have to be shown that Loghain indeed performed these actions. Cauthrien does not deny that he did these things - she denies his responsibility for his actions.

[Addai]

Re. the Tower of Ishal and the (Cunning) option to suggest that the darkspawn attacked it because they knew the plan, I am guessing that is foreshadowing of there being sentient leadership in the darkspawn other than just the archdemon.

[Addai]

Tasmen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And if you see any tenderness in Loghain grabbing Cauthrien's arm... I'm afraid there's really something you're seeing in him that I'm not...

Tenderness?  No, I never actually used that word.  I don't think it was tenderness.  But I do think that there was something more between them than just commander & soldier and that we got a glimpse of it in a moment when he was angry that she questioned him.  Of all the people to question him, her?  Just seemed to hint that there was more going on beneath the surface than we were being shown/told about.  Definitely NOT tenderness.

I could believe that.  Her hero worship has an unreasoning quality that could mean she is blinded by love.  I don't get the same sense from Loghain towards her, however.  Anyone questioning his orders gets an outraged response, and when asked to do the ritual he mentions his dead wife- seems like he would not do that if he had a lover.

[ENCHANTMENTSSS]

Monica21 wrote...

I mentioned this in a different thread, but playing as a HNF, I equate Alistair's desire for revenge with my own. If Arl Howe were placed in front of me and Riordan said he could be a Grey Warden or I could kill him, I'd still kill him. They didn't do the same things for the same reasons, but Alistair's driving force was to punish Loghain, and if I can get my revenge, who am I to deny it to Alistair?

Monica I find myself drawn to your Avatar lol

When I read this post, for a split second I followed my baser instincts and agreed completely.  Then after that second was over I had to drop my personal feelings and remember a former post of mine.
"You're going against the counsel of a Senior ranking Grey Warden. Yes I know Riordan just started his part in the last 10 mins of the game as some posts state but regardless he is still a higher ranking Grey Warden and in any militaristic group there should be some semblance of order. You should at least consider, if not bend to his wise counsel. We swore oaths to defend the land of Ferelden at any cost and if that means allowing a great swordsman to live long enough to kill X amount of darkspawn for the good of the land and its people then our own personal feelings and emotions be damned. Whew, been waitin to get this one of my chest for some time."
Now this was written in regards to Loghain but it would be hypocritical of me if I was not to apply it to Howe if the tables were turned. Although that would make for a good forum. You should have the honor of creating it and I'd be the first to post. 

[Elfseeker]

'show' the banns proof? how? I don't think I've ever gotten the option to do so. And of course as with so many things in DA:O, you only get one shot at talking to most of them. Then they clam up completely.

No, give me the ME-model; everything is open all the time, barring 'impulse'-conversations. You can even return to the crashsite repeatedly and just wander around. Always alone, though, which is a bother.



But anyway, was blind to the Uldred-connection, thinking the comment about Loghain merely a 'the big hero will help us when he hears of this' sorta thing.



The poisoning of the arl, his link with the tower madness, the inescapable conclusion(largely brought on by a lack of rp-elements in the direction of 'Loghain inquires as to what the hell Howe is doing with his daughter') that he knew and approved of Howe keeping his daughter locked up.

And then there is of course the fact of him taking her place as ruler(regent-nothing). If he was only out to build an army, why all but depose the ruler people actually liked, and who knew her way around? He's a -general- for the Maker's sake. You have a ruler who is your daughter, with all bonds that would imply, but instead of simply leading and building her armies, he takes her rule from her. Why, if not to pave the way for her removal?



Put it all together, and you get a man that, carried on the remains of his one victory(anyone heard of any others?) into complete and total lack of connection with reality.

Putting him out of his misery(in whatever way you find suitable) is a mercy both for the country and the man himself.



Side-thought; killing him makes in all the more important, in my book, to let Cauthrien live. That way, Anora won't be -completely- alone with her point of view. (well, sure there'll be others with an inkling, but probably not many likely to be in as close a proximity.



A daughter who clearly loved him, even as she knew of his crimes, and an officer who saw and heard everything, yet stuck by him to(near) the end? Don't see how they could avoid getting to know each other.(the stint when you rescue Anora from Howe's estate notwithstanding)

[CalJones]

My thought is that he declares himself regent not because he wants to remove Anora (that much is crystal clear from talking to him later, should you recruit him - he knows she is a strong queen and politically adept) but for two reasons: he believes (falsely, at that point) that he is the only one who can get Fereldan out of the mess that it's it (even though it's a mess of his own creating, as Anora points out) and secondly because he has foreseen that others will make a play for the throne with Cailan dead. He wants to make sure that Anora will keep it (and not just because she is his daughter, but because she is a strong queen and therefore good for Fereldan). He knows Alistair exists, so it's not a huge leap.



He is most certainly not interested in power for power's sake - even Arl Eamon says that he is a sensible man who has never desired power. He just doesn't believe anyone else is capable of getting Fereldan through it's troubles. Obviously he has messed up and he admits that later on. If you give him the chance then he'll intimate that he is relieved to find someone as strong as Maric to follow in the Warden, and from that point on he's your man. Whether you believe or not that he deserves that chance is really up to you, but I do, personally.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Re. the Tower of Ishal and the (Cunning) option to suggest that the darkspawn attacked it because they knew the plan, I am guessing that is foreshadowing of there being sentient leadership in the darkspawn other than just the archdemon.

The frustrating thing about RtO is that it leads to more questions instead of providing answers. Your theory is intriguing, but even if it's true, we still know that the tunnels lead directly onto the battlefield. If Loghain's men were securing the tunnels and the army was camped in the valley, who missed the darkspawn heading in, well before the battle started?

ENCHANTMENTSSS wrote...
When I read this post, for a split second I followed my baser instincts and agreed completely.  Then after that second was over I had to drop my personal feelings and remember a former post of mine.

"You're going against the counsel of a Senior ranking Grey Warden. Yes I know Riordan just started his part in the last 10 mins of the game as some posts state but regardless he is still a higher ranking Grey Warden and in any militaristic group there should be some semblance of order. You should at least consider, if not bend to his wise counsel. We swore oaths to defend the land of Ferelden at any cost and if that means allowing a great swordsman to live long enough to kill X amount of darkspawn for the good of the land and its people then our own personal feelings and emotions be damned. Whew, been waitin to get this one of my chest for some time."

Now this was written in regards to Loghain but it would be hypocritical of me if I was not to apply it to Howe if the tables were turned. Although that would make for a good forum. You should have the honor of creating it and I'd be the first to post. 

I won't deny that it's a base instinct. And I'll paraphrase something Gaider said, and ask, if the purpose is to let him die, then what's the point in waiting? Alistair has spent most of the game wanting revenge just as much as I did. I even promised my father I'd seek vengeance. I don't believe that Alistair never once, in a sleepless night, promised Duncan he'd kill Loghain for leaving him to die.

Despite Loghain's acceptance that his actions were wrong, Alistair believes that Loghain should die a traitor's death rather than a hero's death. It's not my battle, so I'm not going to be the one to deny Alistair vengeance. And yes, I am going against the counsel of a senior Warden, but it's still my choice to make. Well, actually, it's Alistair's choice, since, excepting my first playthrough, I always let Alistair duel Loghain.

[maxernst]

Although I realize the Grey Wardens can choose to exercise right of conscription, I think in a case of high treason, it ought to be the Landsmeet's decision to make whether Loghain is to be executed or not. Of course, I also think it should be the Landsmeet's decision to choose a king, too, and I would have been perfectly happy to say that I felt that both Anora and Alistair were fine people who would serve Ferelden well, should they be chosen. I'll cast my vote (if allowed) as Teryn of Highever (since I don't know Fergus is alive), but there's no reason they have to follow my lead.



By the way, when does Loghain accept that his actions were wrong? Is this in post-Landsmeet conversations? It seemed to me, he was just acknowledging defeat at Landsmeet.

[Gold Dragon]

In the ONE ending that I spared Loghain, and took him to be sacrificed to the Archdemon, he said something to the order of his only regret that his stupidity almost made it impossible for the player to do the job correctly.



Loghain saying what you want to hear? Or saying his heart? Take it as you will.

[Loerwyn]

I think Loghain's problem (note: I didn't use him in Origins and I'm only about 100 pages into the Stolen Throne) is that he doesn't seem to trust easily and that he feels he's often "in the right".

From what I've read of The Stolen Throne, he seems to think of Maric as a bit of an idiot, even when he warms to him a bit (Rowan has just found them in the part I'm at). Cailan was also very foolhardy and had his head in the clouds - And just look at Alistair. He's so obviously related to Cailan/Maric and for that I don't think Loghain would trust him with the throne.

Cailan died because he's headstrong and was overly confident, and I think Loghain is very aware of his own down-to-earth attitude and as such he took the command as soon as he could because he felt he was the one who could save Ferelden. Whether he recognised it was a Blight or not, it was clear he didn't think Cailan was fit to rule and opportunity presented itself just at the right time.

[Elfseeker]

Just feel like repeating the lamebrained nature of seeing a foe attack that grows in numbers for every charge, and then not only riding away from it, but taking every soldier in the vicintity with you -way- away from the battle-line.



(who was it I remember seeing yell about how he/she/it/they 'held the line' for Ferelden? Better not be Loghain, 'cause he certainly didn't)



(as an aside; Loghain...Logain of 'Wheel of Time' 'fame'? *shrug* )

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Although I realize the Grey Wardens can choose to exercise right of conscription, I think in a case of high treason, it ought to be the Landsmeet's decision to make whether Loghain is to be executed or not.

They did- they decided to abide by the outcome of the duel.  Does anyone doubt the Wardens would be executed if it went the other way?  My PC goes into the Landsmeet thinking there's a chance she and Alistair will be headless by the end of the day.

[AlanC9]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

In the ONE ending that I spared Loghain, and took him to be sacrificed to the Archdemon, he said something to the order of his only regret that his stupidity almost made it impossible for the player to do the job correctly.

So he figures it out in the end. Works for me.

Personally, my characters tend to dislike Anora even more than Loghain. He at least has the excuse of thinking that his despicable tactics are working. She knows it's not working but still thinks that's the way to rule. My first PC sacrificed his life to stop her from getting the throne.

And in passing, I'd like to add that I was very glad, and somewhat shocked, that there's no deus-ex-machina to get you out of it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I hate the Landsmeet.

Because it's forced. Only 2 choices for Loghian. No way to use clever wordplay to trick him.

What if I want to give Loghian a chance to redeem himself, but I do NOT want him into the GW?
There are no options to exile him, throw him in the dungeon or just send him into battle at the front, to die fighting.
I ... HATE.... THIS.
To whomever decided that we should only have those 2 options - a pox on you!

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 18 février 2010 - 09:18 .