124 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

GUH! I haven't read the books. Whatever he did 20 odd years ago is irrelevant to the current situation. He allowed a weasel like Howe to commit unspeakable acts to FERELDEN citizens, he SOLD men, women and children into slavery to blood mages in Tevinter. Let alone abandoning all those people in Ostagar. Even Duncan had his doubts about the battle and felt their numbers were too few. I get the feeling had Loghain put aside his stupid hatred to see things tactically that WITH the right numbers they could have dealt with this. From every corner he has harrassed and persecuted the only TWO people in Ferelden who CAN fix the mess he is making worse with every deed.



His motives for taking the throne I do acknowledge as "I am the ONLY one who can fix this mess". But he isn't seeing its a MESS he created.



Some hero... yea this guy dies everytime at the Landsmeet. Once he starts doing his "you traitors" speech I can't wait to lop off his head. A traitor's death is all he deserves IMO

[Elfseeker]

Anora. We have no clue how she'd rule. We know the people love her, we know she can do it right, but by the time we get anywhere near ferelden, her father's ****ed it up something fierce. We never see her rule, short of the speech or two at the end.



So why people dislike her, I have no idea. Sure, she's not the warmest person in the world to begin with, but I've seen plenty colder.

[Sabriana]

Personally, I don't hate Anora. I don't specifically like her, but I do feel a bit sorry for her. As for her betrayal of the PC at Howe's, I think the PC betrayed her first by revealing her identity to Cauthrien. I still do it though, but I have my RP reasons for that.

Her betrayal at the Landsmeet, if the PC didn't talk her and Alistair into marrying, is a bit harder to forgive. What stands out most is that she would loose everything, perhaps even her life, if Alistair is made king.



The rebellion was 30 years ago, and most Fereldan's still remember the tyranny that was the Orlesian occupation. Orlais ran roughshod over Ferelden, and terrorized its population. So yes, he is still a hero in many eyes, and yes, he freed Ferelden from a choke-hold.

It doesn't make his actions regarding the present acceptable, but as far as I'm concerned, he deserved a shot at redemption. Others feel differently. And neither one is wrong, but plays it as they feel it and see it.

I wouldn't dream of telling those who wish to lop off his head that they are playing it wrong. I do, however, expect the same courtesy.

[ejoslin]

Elfseeker wrote...

Anora. We have no clue how she'd rule. We know the people love her, we know she can do it right, but by the time we get anywhere near ferelden, her father's ****ed it up something fierce. We never see her rule, short of the speech or two at the end.

So why people dislike her, I have no idea. Sure, she's not the warmest person in the world to begin with, but I've seen plenty colder.

I think the city elf and the human noble have both seen how Anora rules.  And they probably have very different views on her competence. 

[Vicious]

Whatever David G says, he can't deny the game pigeon-holes Loghain into a villain at EVERY possible turn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I would write a defense for Loghain for the billionth time, but Mr Gaider's post was more than enough. In my opinion, Loghain is the best character after Morigan.

[melkathi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would write a defense for Loghain for the billionth time, but Mr Gaider's post was more than enough. In my opinion, Loghain is the best character after Morigan.

No need, I know it by heart :innocent:

Don't like Loghain, as a person. But in The Calling he had me laughing out loud

[Sabriana]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would write a defense for Loghain for the billionth time, but Mr Gaider's post was more than enough. In my opinion, Loghain is the best character after Morigan.

Oh wow, those were the times, eh? What was that thread? "The complete defense of Loghain" I think. Lordy, what an argument, 50 pages long.

Good times... good times.

[CalJones]

I think it's testament to the character that he is still inspiring passionate debate, and loved and loathed in equal measure. I could come up with half a dozen reasons why I can't bring myself to kill him - everything from saving Fereldan from the Orlesians to Anora's rosebush story. I have to admit, though, it's really because I have a bit of a crush on him. He can go in my Bad Boys of Bioware harem with Sarevok and Canderous. (Mmm Candy...)

[Solica]

CalJones wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
There are a lot of things about Ostagar that bother me and I don't have answers for. Cailan apparently didn't think the battle could be won but he put himself on the front lines. There's a line of dialogue you can get in the Tower when Alistair asks what the darkspawn are doing there and one response which I think is based on cunning is "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they know the plan?" Where did that come from and what in the world is the player supposed to take away from that? Since Loghain's men were supposedly securing the Tower, how did they get inside and did Loghain have anything to do with it?

Cailan didn't think it was a proper Blight and the battles until that point had been won easily. He put himself on the front lines because he had fairytale notions of being a big hero and revelling in glory. He even expresses disappointment that an archdemon had not been sighted. He was a well-meaning fool.

Re: the tower, see David Gaider's post here: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250
The Darkspawn being in the tower was unforseen.

Ehum. I won't quite say that D.G. is wrong. He can't be both wrong and right at the same time. So he's likely to be 'right' and just misunderstood. Loghain fans  tend to grasp for straws everywhere they see them. He says quite clearly that Loghain always, far in advance planned for Not Having the Beacon Lit. His motives for maybe not wanting the beacon to be lit in time, or not at all, seem rather obvious. And I don't think we need to confuse ourselves about that.

Now about the Darkspawn: For sure Loghain couldn't have known and couldn't have made plans for this far in advance. But that's is as far as IMO D.Gaiders statement can be taken.

"Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected."

What I'm saying is that there was a time when it was unexpected. But that time cannot have been at the battle or close to the battle. Loghain's men found the tunnels underneath, and they made the hole in the floor. The tunnel entrance is in the darkspawns way of advance (play RtO). At this point it's absolutely certain that the darkspawn will send scouting forces into the tunnel, when they come. Of course they will. There cannot be any doubt or any "That was unexpected" about that.
And Loghain's men have had days, days  (try visit the tower on first arriving as recruit, at Ostagar) to plug the hole in the floor, and fill in the tunnel entrance. There can be only one possible reason why this is not done. So there was nothing "unexpected" at all about the darkspawn overrunning the tower. In contrary, this was, at that time, with the two G. Wardens assigned to the tower, entirely according to plan. Plan B, when Loghain couldn't control it with his own men. The only thing Loghain can have found "unexpected", as he sat on the side of the battle, was that the signal was lit.

[CalJones]

Well he *is* a general, he would have had planned for a dozen contingencies. That includes both going into battle and retreating. Killing off Cailan wasn't something he definitely planned for, though - you're standing right there when he tells Cailan not to go in on the front line, after all. Anyway, this is old ground and has been covered a dozen times before. I don't think there's any doubt that Loghain does some bad stuff (even if some of it is understandable) - it's more whether you view him as a fallen hero who deserves a shot at redemption or a villain who deserves execution. I'm in the former camp, obviously.

[maxernst]

Callan's entire amy was slaughtered. It would have made no difference whether he was on the front line or not. Besides, Loghain probably told him that before every battle, so he knew Callan would ignore him.

[David Gaider]

Solica wrote...
Loghain's men found the tunnels underneath, and they made the hole in the floor. The tunnel entrance is in the darkspawns way of advance (play RtO). At this point it's absolutely certain that the darkspawn will send scouting forces into the tunnel, when they come. Of course they will. There cannot be any doubt or any "That was unexpected" about that.

Err... no. The darkspawn burst up through the floor (via the ogre). Loghain did not dig a tunnel in order to flood the tower with darkspawn. You may think otherwise, but you'd be wrong.

[Sabriana]

It also makes little sense. How could Loghain possibly have made a deal with the darkspawn? He's not a psychopath, he actually thinks he's keeping his oath to Maric. He loves Ferelden to a fault, his live-blood is tied into it.

He did a lot of terrible things, but when the stone started rolling, the avalanche quickly followed, and he could not turn the tide, but had to ride it out, in his mind. At least that's what I got from the whole thing (game & books)

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The problem is that in the game Loghain's guard in front of the tower tells you about the tunnles *before* you even go into the wilds while in Ostigar.



That really makes it look like Loghain had to know that the tower was at serious risk at the very minimum.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I love how Loghain haters claim that we "grasp at straws" (because what a writer says is merely a "straw"), while they come up with very ridiculous theories that make no sense and that have been refuted time beyond counting. And then they say Loghain is paranoid.

[Sabriana]

Found tunnels? I thought the guard said found 'lower chambers'? I could be wrong though. However, even if they found the tunnels, they'd most likely scratch their heads, wondering where they came from.



Hello there, Knight. Deja vu all over again, right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabriana wrote...

Found tunnels? I thought the guard said found 'lower chambers'? I could be wrong though. However, even if they found the tunnels, they'd most likely scratch their heads, wondering where they came from.

Hello there, Knight. Deja vu all over again, right?

Yep, brings us back.

And you are right, the guard said lower chambers. Not tunnels. And they found them. They didn't dig them. 
And if he suppossedly planned to not light the beacon from the very start (which he didn't; he planned to not light it if it became necessary. Otherwise, he would have insisted on having Uldred in the tower), then why would he need the darkspawn to do that? His men would have simply not lit the tower.
He didn't know the GWs were going to the tower until right before the battle.

This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. Start out with an idea "Loghain is evilll". Then interpret and link all facts in a way that satisfy your original premise, ending up with something that makes little sense. 
While in-game, we can never know for sure, out-universe we can know, since a writer is providing us with info.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[CalJones]

He definitely says lower chambers.

[Elfseeker]

If we're to believe the setup in 'return to ostagar' is correct for the battle in question, I do not see how the darkspawn could have gotten up into the tower -after- the battle starts(tunnel runs out right where the human army(Cailan & co) had been standing before they foolishly 'counter-rushed' the horde), thus they must have been there before the gang even gathered down there. The one who designed the tunnel(developer-side, not in-game) having a mindfart, or evidence of foul play?

[Monica21]

David Gaider wrote...

Solica wrote...
Loghain's men found the tunnels underneath, and they made the hole in the floor. The tunnel entrance is in the darkspawns way of advance (play RtO). At this point it's absolutely certain that the darkspawn will send scouting forces into the tunnel, when they come. Of course they will. There cannot be any doubt or any "That was unexpected" about that.

Err... no. The darkspawn burst up through the floor (via the ogre). Loghain did not dig a tunnel in order to flood the tower with darkspawn. You may think otherwise, but you'd be wrong.

Then what's the point of the PC asking why attack the tower unless the darkspawn know the plan? Does it speak to someone else's point about the darkspawn knowing because the Grey Wardens know?

[Sabriana]

Possibly. Maybe DA:A will provide some answers to that. But I do believe Loghain is blameless in this, and no one can convince me otherwise. It would be OOC for him in my opinon.

[grieferbastard]

So Loghain is the first person to ever, what, make an agreement with the Darkspawn? That's just silly. I get the feeling that Loghain is there, watching the battle, realizing that this is not something he's sure he can win but he's already committed....

but then the time for the beacon being lit comes and goes. What happened? Is there a problem? That sudden window of a way out. If the beacon isn't lit then he can just.... not... charge. The battle is looking worse and worse and the idea of dying fighting Darkspawn in a battle he feels isn't even a true Blight for a boy-king who clearly doesn't realize what's best for Ferelden?

For me it feels like that emergency exit for sanity so to speak. That delay on lighting the beacon lets him consider, justify to himself, retreating to 'save his soldiers' and be rid of a boy-king who he fears will just deliver Ferelden back into Orlesian hands. So when the beacon does light there's this sudden moment of 'it's too late'. That's why he waited for it. If he intended to betray Cailen before the battle, why wait for the beacon?

No, I think he was there on the hill in a fight he found oddly beneath him and was poorly considered in the company of people he didn't respect following the orders of a king he was realizing he could not trust. So he justifies to himself, standing on the hill watching the battle unfold, just why he shouldn't charge. He was ripe soil for that bastard Howe when he got back to Denerim and would have hated the Couslands (sympathizers!) anyway.

Much of Loghains depth is never truly spoken. His voice acting is excellent and you feel all the way through like he struggles with some of these choices. Yet in the end he's more of a Grey Warden than Alistair ever was. Victory at any cost. He's like an anti-Warden - his enemy of focus is the Orlesians and thus to him the Darkspawn are a secondary concern. Whatever damage they do is unimportant compared to the danger of being enslaved by the Orlesians again.

I have no doubt, no question that Duncan would kill anyone, betray anyone, lie to anyone, sell Ferelden into slavery to the Orlesians or elves to the Tevinter for that matter if it was required to defeat the Blight. He may regret it later but everything else is secondary to victory. Loghain embodied that mentality just with a different enemy. Perhaps that's why Alistair hates Loghain so much. He's like a dark reflection of Duncan in a lot of ways.

For me though he just about always dies. Especially with human noble. I think of Howes final words about my nephews corpse, the death of my parents and that Loghain let him get away with it.... and POW. Right or wrong, justified or not he needs to die.

[Sabriana]

I agree with you in many points, grieferbastard. But in my games, at the end, he's a fallen hero, but still a hero. Without him Ferelden would still have the Orlesian boot stuffed up its throat. He deserves to redeem himself, he earned that right with blood, sweat and tears. He's not a pure criminal, although his actions make him appear so. He has Ferelden in his mind, and he will die for it. Gladly.

[Cavegeta]

My opinion of Loghain also changed when reading Stolen Throne. It was creepy really, the whole time I was reading about him and Maric, I kept thinking of my warden and Alistair's relationship.