284 réponses à ce sujet

[Heldenbrand]

There was a time when the only quality RPGs being made were from Japan. Since then and only relatively recently have Western RPGs started to compete in both scale and beauty. The most off-putting trend in JRPGs are their linear focus. FFXII and apparently FFXIII as well as Xenosaga all constrained the player down to a-b-c-d focus whereas Western RPG's tend to be more about open ended exploration.



JRPG's used to have the same open exploration and enjoyment, however starting on the PS2 and onward they abandoned it. They also have a habit of giving you the same protagonists. Young teenage boy discovers inner power and saves the world/nation from imminent destruction. Women tend to be very self-sacrificing with terrible naivety. It's a method that works well in Japan based upon cultural differences, but starting to lose its appeal here in the States with a new wealth of games - especially those presented by Bioware and formerly Black Isle.



I'll still probably play FFXIII just for the memories of getting started way back with Cecil.

[Chrono Mizaki]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

It's not that their style is any level invalid, it's that they refuse to compromise to a Western audience.

Not every game has to cater to a 'western audience' or my definition: 'the American Audience'.

I was merely pointing out that if he wants to complain about his JRPG not working out in the Western World, then he at least should take into consideration the factors.

For a game to work in the 'western world' aka America, the game has to be centered around 'America'... or Fantasy Mythology. If FFXIII have Space Bald Marines and was set in a flying Island in America.

The reviewers will still slag it off however, saying it reminds them of Turok, but it's the sales that matter.

Hmm, a person by the name of "Chrono Mizaki" criticizing America and putting Japan in an ivory tower.  Weeaboo?

Congratulations, you came to an satisfactory conclusion. I am indeed a weeabo. Sugoii~

Or you're so quick to 'denote' my opinions because of my 'weeabo' name? Chrono Mizaki... or 'Chrono' is from Chrono Trigger, a classic. A big fan of Chrono Trigger, yes. A weeabo? Now that's transalation for "I'm not listening to this guy'

Way to group our country's history and myths into a generalized
statement by the way.  Space Bald Marines set in a flying island in
America?

Best of all, you fight a cybernetic dragon being created by the American Goverment!

The great thing bout our country is that we're a mix of
a ton of cultures, each with their own myths.

Congratulation, Einstein, you concluded that America is so unique by having multiculturalism, like every other ****ing european country,

Wouldn't expect a
Narutard to understand though.

I'm more of a Serial Experiments Lain person. Never got the appeal with Narutah!

[the_one_54321]

Jonas TM wrote...

Marilynn-22 wrote...
wow instead of complaining about other gaming companys, the Jrpg companys should learn from the western rpg companys on what makes a GREAT game and use it, instead they keep creating the same crap over and over again :/

This pretty much strikes the nail on the head IMO.  jRPGs are stagnant because they havn't changed their formula in what?  At least 5 years if not closer to a decade.  wRPGs are constantly switching up their forumula/gameplay/stories and while we may not like them all, at least we have a lot to chose from.

You guys are nuts. Just so you know, everything "revolutionary" that a WRPG has done, a JRPG did first. Type in a feature in google search and find out where it was first implemented. See how many you can find that weren't first done in JRPGs.

[Garuda One]

javierabegazo wrote...

Oh fantastic, another "What is an RPG" person.... To that, I pit David Gaider's Comment from yesterday

 

This

[Chrono Mizaki]

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

michath1 wrote...

ok so we all agree that everything that bioware touches turns to gold

I don't agree. Bioware makes some good games and I love Mass Effect as well as Knights of the Old Republic. But Bioware have made some pretty **** games in the past.

Yea, Mass Effect 2 sucked.

Yeah, because Mass Effect is so perfect, especially on a technical level!

[/sarcasm]

[ReDSH1FT]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

When the sales of FFXIII blow DA:O out of the water we'll see who's afraid of who.

I love BioWare, but they only wish they could be as massively successful a developer as Square.

*pumps shotgun* 

You lost, boy?

How many games has BioWare had that have been succesful on the level of ME and DA:O?

Now how many Final Fantasy games have been made? How many of those weren't as succesful as DA:O?

First off, how are you judging success here?

Sales?  I'm pretty sure that since gaming is so mainstream now, that the millions each BioWare game sells is way more than the few console owners' sales in the the 8/32 bit era.

They are at least tied, if not, then BioWare is in the lead.  Each one of their games drops millions.  Final Fantasy was doing so poor for a while, that Square had to merge to keep afloat. 

Real successful..

And have you played Baldur's Gate?  KOTOR?  NWN?  I even like the subsidiary companies' games like KOTOR 2 and NWN2 better than most FF games.

Have you played those?

Those games are WILDLY more successful than any FF game.

NWN had the biggest modding community there was.  Did FF have a community based on letting them tell their own tale or making their own stuff?  Nope.  Here's your product, enjoy, or don't, we don't care.

Sorry, but until you play those games, you have no right to compare the companies.  Get your facts straight.

[javierabegazo]

the_one_54321 wrote...


You guys are nuts. Just so you know, everything "revolutionary" that a WRPG has done, a JRPG did first. Type in a feature in google search and find out where it was first implemented. See how many you can find that weren't first done in JRPGs.

Keep in mind there's a fantastic difference between "doing something first" and "doing something well"

[the_one_54321]

rab****annel wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...
Oh fantastic, another "What is an RPG" person.... To that, I pit David Gaider's Comment from yesterday

 

Brilliant reply!
On topic:
I'd like to think DA:O and ME 2 destroyed their sales. d:

You should have a look at that thread, now.

Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

[the_one_54321]

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
You guys are nuts. Just so you know, everything "revolutionary" that a WRPG has done, a JRPG did first. Type in a feature in google search and find out where it was first implemented. See how many you can find that weren't first done in JRPGs.

Keep in mind there's a fantastic difference between "doing something first" and "doing something well"

And there is often just as fantastic a difference between copying something and copying it well.

[Jonas TM]

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...


You guys are nuts. Just so you know, everything "revolutionary" that a WRPG has done, a JRPG did first. Type in a feature in google search and find out where it was first implemented. See how many you can find that weren't first done in JRPGs.

Keep in mind there's a fantastic difference between "doing something first" and "doing something well"

My thoughts exactly.

[Dhraconus]

I haven't played FF13 nor will I, but I believe the reviews and here's why.

FF1 - Awesome game for it's time, defined a genre
FF2 (on nintendo) - Still a great game for it's time
FF3 (on nintendo) - Also a great game
FF4 (on Snes, 2 in NA) - Excellent game, big step up from 2 and 3
FF5 (on Snes, never in NA) - Kind of a rehash of FF3 but good game none the less
FF6 (Snes, 3 in NA) - Best FF game up to this point, total classic
FF7 - Good game, still true to the FF series
FF8 - ummm, it had a good story?
FF9 - Return to the FF standards, excellent game, slightly cartoonish
FF10 - An interactive movie, campared to all other FF games it sucked
FFX2 - GAH!!!! Nuf said.
FF11 - MMO, doesn't count
FF12 - Only FF gameI couldn't bring myself to finish.  There's a reason combat is called 'masturbating'

The final fantasy series has been going downhill fast since 10.  Western RPGs by contrast have been improving overall.  Mass effect is a good example, while ME2 is less of a traditional RPG compared to ME1 the overall game I think is better, and if ME3 blends the good from ME1&2 it will be even better.

In short JRPGs, FF games in particular are getting worse (interactive movie), and WRPGs are getting better (more choices, more interaction, less requirements).  Or put another way WRPGs are following the trend of "More game, more story, more choice" JRPGs seem to be going towards "less game, more story, less choice"

[the_one_54321]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
When the sales of FFXIII blow DA:O out of the water we'll see who's afraid of who.
I love BioWare, but they only wish they could be as massively successful a developer as Square.

*pumps shotgun*
You lost, boy?

How many games has BioWare had that have been succesful on the level of ME and DA:O?
Now how many Final Fantasy games have been made? How many of those weren't as succesful as DA:O?

First off, how are you judging success here?
Sales?  I'm pretty sure that since gaming is so mainstream now, that the millions each BioWare game sells is way more than the few console owners' sales in the the 8/32 bit era.
They are at least tied, if not, then BioWare is in the lead.  Each one of their games drops millions.  Final Fantasy was doing so poor for a while, that Square had to merge to keep afloat.
Real successful..
And have you played Baldur's Gate?  KOTOR?  NWN?  I even like the subsidiary companies' games like KOTOR 2 and NWN2 better than most FF games.
Have you played those?
Those games are WILDLY more successful than any FF game.
NWN had the biggest modding community there was.  Did FF have a community based on letting them tell their own tale or making their own stuff?  Nope.  Here's your product, enjoy, or don't, we don't care.
Sorry, but until you play those games, you have no right to compare the companies.  Get your facts straight.

First off, Square bought out Enix. They had the cash for it. There was no desperate merger.

Second.
BG
BGII
NWN
KotOR
Jade Empire
ME
DA:O
and now ME2 has recently launched.
That's 7 hits under BioWare's belt.

Square has well over 20.

[ReDSH1FT]

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...


You guys are nuts. Just so you know, everything "revolutionary" that a WRPG has done, a JRPG did first. Type in a feature in google search and find out where it was first implemented. See how many you can find that weren't first done in JRPGs.

Keep in mind there's a fantastic difference between "doing something first" and "doing something well"

Gonna quote this in gold borders.

And btw Chrono, I think I know a bit about European Countries, more than you even.  I'm from Europe, I lived there most of my life, in Italy.  I now live in the states, and I can say that it's more diverse here.  

Please don't make assumptions like that, you look like a fool.  BTW, I took Japanese in college to up my stock for internships, but I was appalled by the amount of weeaboos taking the class just to watch their animu without subtitles.

Some of us enjoy Japanese culture, but you folks make us look bad by association.

[Chrono Mizaki]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

When the sales of FFXIII blow DA:O out of the water we'll see who's afraid of who.

I love BioWare, but they only wish they could be as massively successful a developer as Square.

*pumps shotgun* 

You lost, boy?

How many games has BioWare had that have been succesful on the level of ME and DA:O?

Now how many Final Fantasy games have been made? How many of those weren't as succesful as DA:O?

They are at least tied, if not, then BioWare is in the lead.  Each one of their games drops millions.  Final Fantasy was doing so poor for a while, that Square had to merge to keep afloat. 

Actually, Squaresoft went bankrupt because of The Spirits Within, which the budget was worth more than the company itself I believe, what with a totally new studio and crew to started creating the film. Plus releasing in Cinema and adveritising it, and not many people wanting to see it, spelt its doom for Squaresoft.

Wasn't Final Fantasy, it was their risk that pulled them down and they realised it was badly-implemented and too ambitious.

[javierabegazo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

Your point is null, ME2's sales figures in Japan alone are far higher than that of FFXIII's. Even on it's home turf, with all the massive press about FFXIII, ME2 still had larger sales.

[Adynata]

I used to love playing FF. FF8 is what got me into gaming. But the games have become physically painful to play. Those "compelling stories" are just confusing and lack the depth required by the denoument in order to make more sense.

[the_one_54321]

Dhraconus wrote...
In short JRPGs, FF games in particular are getting worse (interactive movie), and WRPGs are getting better (more choices, more interaction, less requirements).  Or put another way WRPGs are following the trend of "More game, more story, more choice" JRPGs seem to be going towards "less game, more story, less choice"

You know, there are lots of people who like both types for their differences. Different doesn't automatically mean bad. And something not fitting your preference is not the same as it being bad quality.

[ReDSH1FT]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
When the sales of FFXIII blow DA:O out of the water we'll see who's afraid of who.
I love BioWare, but they only wish they could be as massively successful a developer as Square.

*pumps shotgun*
You lost, boy?

How many games has BioWare had that have been succesful on the level of ME and DA:O?
Now how many Final Fantasy games have been made? How many of those weren't as succesful as DA:O?

First off, how are you judging success here?
Sales?  I'm pretty sure that since gaming is so mainstream now, that the millions each BioWare game sells is way more than the few console owners' sales in the the 8/32 bit era.
They are at least tied, if not, then BioWare is in the lead.  Each one of their games drops millions.  Final Fantasy was doing so poor for a while, that Square had to merge to keep afloat.
Real successful..
And have you played Baldur's Gate?  KOTOR?  NWN?  I even like the subsidiary companies' games like KOTOR 2 and NWN2 better than most FF games.
Have you played those?
Those games are WILDLY more successful than any FF game.
NWN had the biggest modding community there was.  Did FF have a community based on letting them tell their own tale or making their own stuff?  Nope.  Here's your product, enjoy, or don't, we don't care.
Sorry, but until you play those games, you have no right to compare the companies.  Get your facts straight.

First off, Square bought out Enix. They had the cash for it. There was no desperate merger.

Second.
BG
BGII
NWN
KotOR
Jade Empire
ME
DA:O
and now ME2 has recently launched.
That's 7 hits under BioWare's belt.

Square has well over 20.

And of those 20, lets compare metacritic scores, lets get some averages between Square and BioWare.

BTW, you listed 8 hits, not 7.

You say Square has 20 hits?

Can you list their "hits?"

Go ahead, I'll wait

[FataliTensei]

He has a point, Western games are good, but generally High-class JRPGs like the final fantasy series have more compelling characters and a stronger story



The customization of western games though is very fun and is difficult to compete with

[ReDSH1FT]

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

Your point is null, ME2's sales figures in Japan alone are far higher than that of FFXIII's. Even on it's home turf, with all the massive press about FFXIII, ME2 still had larger sales.

Ouch.

[Zavox]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

Your point is null, ME2's sales figures in Japan alone are far higher than that of FFXIII's. Even on it's home turf, with all the massive press about FFXIII, ME2 still had larger sales.

Ouch.

Yeah, I'd love to see him respond to that... He'd probably ignore it though.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Dhraconus wrote...
In short JRPGs, FF games in particular are getting worse (interactive movie), and WRPGs are getting better (more choices, more interaction, less requirements).  Or put another way WRPGs are following the trend of "More game, more story, more choice" JRPGs seem to be going towards "less game, more story, less choice"

You know, there are lots of people who like both types for their differences. Different doesn't automatically mean bad. And something not fitting your preference is not the same as it being bad quality.

People don't seem to understand that.

Regardless though. FF does need to step their game up. Not to appeal to Western Audiences (Because I doubt ME tried to appeal to Japanese Audiences) but to do what they can do (enviorments, worlds, colors) well and step up their characterizations. (FF mostly).

Then again FF is not my idea of an enjoyable Jrpg so meh.

Edit: *facepalms at the whole BioWare is better than Squareenix and vice versa nonsense* Good grief. Different companies have different strengths.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[ReDSH1FT]

Zavox wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

Your point is null, ME2's sales figures in Japan alone are far higher than that of FFXIII's. Even on it's home turf, with all the massive press about FFXIII, ME2 still had larger sales.

Ouch.

Yeah, I'd love to see him respond to that... He'd probably ignore it though.

Those Japanese don't have the true Japanese spirit, like he does.  They are too Westernized.

[the_one_54321]

javierabegazo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Also, FFXIII hasn't even released outside of Japan yet.

Your point is null, ME2's sales figures in Japan alone are far higher than that of FFXIII's. Even on it's home turf, with all the massive press about FFXIII, ME2 still had larger sales.

The only info I'm finding on this is that ME2 is leading sales on the Xbox.

[javierabegazo]

the_one_54321 wrote...


You know, there are lots of people who like both types for their differences. Different doesn't automatically mean bad. And something not fitting your preference is not the same as it being bad quality.

Contrary to our past disagreements, on this I do agree with you. I love all the past FF games, they are what brought me my love of gaming and there are few games I love as much as FF6. But the direction FF13 has taken is not quite to my personal liking. I loved FF6 because of how grounded a story it was. I loved FF Tactics for the brilliant battle system, and the various ways to approach combat and customize your party, despite how linear the game was. But this "flashy JPOP fashion show" art direction the FF series has taken since FFX-2, it's well. it's just wierd, it's like they're specifically targeting the teen generation. Also, for Toriyama to downplay the virtues of WRPG's seemed...childish to say the least.