284 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

poisonoustea wrote...
What the hell is a metrosexual? And no, I'm not searching on Google. I'm scared of learning such things by myself.

It's a man that grooms himself as meticulously as a woman. Tweezed eyebrows. Perhaps even light makeup. Things like that. But he's not gay.

[krylo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...
How can you say that story is sacrificed?  Have you even played either of the Mass Effect games?

They have more story than Final Fantasy 7.  Yes.  I said it.

There are probably more lines and more options, but that doesn't mean the story was as deep. The interactions have to have some level of generic approach when any of 10 different main characters can achieve exactly the same ending.

It's not a fault, it's just a different approach. It has its pros and it has its cons.

Man, listen, I don't agree with pretty much anything ReD has said so far in this thread, but really?

You're going to go there when comparing main franchise Final Fantasy games to Bioware games?

You'd be better of comparing say... Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy Tactics (or maybe Persona, I've never played but I've heard good things) to FO3 or Oblivion.  They'd make a much better model for the point you're trying to make, here.

Then again, I'm not sure if you have much of a point in the first place.  The only difference between the two methods of story telling isn't in how deep the STORY is but in how deep the CHARACTERIZATION is.  In JRPGs one can get a much deeper characterization for their main character, because in WRPGs there is no characterization for the main character past what the player adds.  On the other hand, the ability for the player to act upon and react to the various other characters in the game in multiple and often wildly divergent ways allows for all other characters to gain a greater depth of characterization.

In either case, however, the main story plot can be created just as deep or as shallow regardless of the method.

[Zavox]

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

I'm going to state this:

Mass Effect will be the Final Fantasy of the Western World. And in ten years time, we will all be ranting on, saying ME is stale and that Bioware has lost its edge.

I'd love to contact you in ten years time. Way too many variables to say such a thing man. What kind of bet do you want on it, you can even get 2:1 odds on it.

[Garuda One]

Well I forgot to mention this, from what I've heard EA is going to try and milk Mass Effect so it doesn't end with Mass Effect 3, so down the line will be back on these forums and the Weeaboos will be laughing at us and will be trying to defend what little we can.

[Chrono Mizaki]

newcomplex wrote...

lol at "overly buffed men".

Seriously look at your average nonfat man on the street. All of their physiques resemble shepherd more then anime character. If their not buff, their body structure is similar to shepherd. You can even take your average JAPANESE MAN, and they'd still look more like shepherd then their anime characters.

And I ask this question: Should a game strive for realism and make the humans as realistically propotional as possible?

[SirHaxelot]

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

So if both "West" and "East" will have stale RPG's who will be our RPG savior?

Maybe...the martian Protheans will be! They'll come from Mars and hook us up with their badass rpg's (as well as the mass relays that will revolutionize human history forever, but compared to the rpg's it's just a footnote really)

Then they'll be taken over by the reapers of mankind and be turned into Canadian game developers 

[newcomplex]

Bann Duncan wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

It's not that their style is any level invalid, it's that they refuse to compromise to a Western audience.

Not every game has to cater to a 'western audience' or my definition: 'the American Audience'.

I was merely pointing out that if he wants to complain about his JRPG not working out in the Western World, then he at least should take into consideration the factors.

For a game to work in the 'western world' aka America, the game has to be centered around 'America'... or Fantasy Mythology. If FFXIII have Space Bald Marines and was set in a flying Island in America.

The reviewers will still slag it off however, saying it reminds them of Turok, but it's the sales that matter.

Yes Jade Empire was centred around American marines. Oh wait - it wasn't.

It centers around what America thinks constitutes ancient China. Theres quite a lot of fortune-cookie ramblings and martial arts in that game. Basically, it sold well here because it conforms to the norms of what the mainstream expects when we think of ancient China.

Japan's games center around what Japan thinks of certain things. If you wern't conditioned by America's own viewpoints of said subject(or your own country), then you might find their games more palpable. I notice a lot of people who enjoy jRPGs got into them when they were children.

I grew up not in America but around the world (mainly in Asian countries) so I would hardly call my viewpoints controlled by such perceptions.

As a sometime kung fu practitioner and avid reader of the Chinese epics, I found Jade Empire fascinating. I do agree that it is not a realistic portrayal of Ancient China but I don't think that it is meant to be one. It is no less true to Ancient China than Thedas is to Medieval Europe.

By no means was it an accurate portrayal of China at all.   Of course

But it isn't overtly western, the plot could easily pass off as the plot of a Chinese movie or a chinese developed game with less bugs.   I mean, its not like big name chinese movies like The promise (not released in english I think) and Hero are anywhere near accurate portrayals of ancient chinese civilization either.

Modifié par newcomplex, 17 février 2010 - 02:57 .

[the_one_54321]

newcomplex wrote...
If you think Final Fantasy was deep, the only advice I can give you is finish high school.

They've made 13 different FF worlds. Which one are you reffering to? 

Also, I have a degree in civil engineering, btw.

[Jonas TM]

poisonoustea wrote...

metrosexuals

What the hell is a metrosexual? And no, I'm not searching on Google. I'm scared of learning such things by myself.

Dudes that shop at AE, A&F, etc.. wear sweater vests, too much hair and skin product, manskape ( pluck / shave unneccissarily), act like chicks.  Generaly your run-of-the-mill effiminate gay dude minus the gay part.

Modifié par Jonas TM, 17 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[ReDSH1FT]

BTW, Mizaki and The One, lets see which company's MMO will do better.



In the blue corner, we have BioWare's SWTOR.



In the red corner, we have FF12, I mean FF14. Can't tell the difference.



Square is gonna get squashed by BioWare.



Again.



And the beatings will continue, as long as BioWare will make games, they will be better than JRPGs.

[vhatever]

Ryzaki wrote...

vhatever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I meant that the JRPGs have done everything that the WRPGs have done, and done it first. And many WRPGs qualify only as pale comparisons. Not BioWare though. BioWare does a fantastic job.

Uh, you mean everything JRPGs have done has been copied from WRPGs?

*facepalms*

Neither side copied everything from the other. That's just plain common sense. They may have used the others ideas as templates (and in some cases blantantly copied) but WRPGs didn't take all their stuff from JRPGs or vice versa.

Honestly get off of that argument its retarded.

It's not retarded, it's factual. Using someone's idea as a template is, uhh, COPYING. So can you list me some gameplay related things JRPGs did before WRPGs  had already done them?

I hate these stupid acronyms.

Modifié par vhatever, 17 février 2010 - 02:59 .

[newcomplex]

the_one_54321 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...
If you think Final Fantasy was deep, the only advice I can give you is finish high school.

They've made 13 different FF worlds. Which one are you reffering to? 

Also, I have a degree in civil engineering, btw.

Everyone except 6.     Haven't played ones before 5.    Nor have I extensively played the very recent ones except X.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 17 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[Ryzaki]

vhatever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

vhatever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I meant that the JRPGs have done everything that the WRPGs have done, and done it first. And many WRPGs qualify only as pale comparisons. Not BioWare though. BioWare does a fantastic job.

Uh, you mean everything JRPGs have done has been copied from WRPGs?

*facepalms*

Neither side copied everything from the other. That's just plain common sense. They may have used the others ideas as templates (and in some cases blantantly copied) but WRPGs didn't take all their stuff from JRPGs or vice versa.

Honestly get off of that argument its retarded.

It's not retarded, it's factual. Using someone's idea as a template is, uhh, COPYING.

....

*sighs*

So if you use information from a website to form a thesis you're copying? Really? <_< If you use the data from the website expand on it with other data from other websites and add your own ideas to make something different but still has the same basic information you've copied the website. Good to know. I somehow managed to not flunk for plagarism.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 février 2010 - 02:59 .

[the_one_54321]

ReDSH1FT wrote...
BTW, Mizaki and The One, lets see which company's MMO will do better.

In the blue corner, we have BioWare's SWTOR.

In the red corner, we have FF12, I mean FF14. Can't tell the difference.

Square is gonna get squashed by BioWare.

Again.

And the beatings will continue, as long as BioWare will make games, they will be better than JRPGs.

I wouldn't be so confident if I were you. Personally, I'm very tentative about both of them. I'd rather if they stuck to single player.

Or even better, if they both started making their games Co-op, that would be fantastic.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...
BTW, Mizaki and The One, lets see which company's MMO will do better.

In the blue corner, we have BioWare's SWTOR.

In the red corner, we have FF12, I mean FF14. Can't tell the difference.

Square is gonna get squashed by BioWare.

Again.

And the beatings will continue, as long as BioWare will make games, they will be better than JRPGs.

I wouldn't be so confident if I were you. Personally, I'm very tentative about both of them. I'd rather if they stuck to single player.

Or even better, if they both started making their games Co-op, that would be fantastic.

And WoW rapes both of them anyway so its a moot point. Blizzard at this point is king.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[the_one_54321]

newcomplex wrote...
Everyone except 6.     Haven't played ones before 5.    Nor have I extensively played the very recent ones except X.

If you really think that FFVII or FFX had no depth, I don't really know what to say. I'd understand if you just didn't like them. But saying their stories lacked depth is a whole new level of inaccurate.

[Chrono Mizaki]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

BTW, Mizaki and The One, lets see which company's MMO will do better.

In the blue corner, we have BioWare's SWTOR.

In the red corner, we have FF12, I mean FF14. Can't tell the difference.

Square is gonna get squashed by BioWare.

Again.

And the beatings will continue, as long as BioWare will make games, they will be better than JRPGs.

I've actually lost interest in debating with you since you avoided answering back to some of my arguements and that I realised your arguements is constructed on blatant JRPG hate for the same typical reasons.

And does it matter which one wins, considering they are both MMOs and it's likely they going to follow the same template as one and still going to get their ass whooped by World of Warcraft?

Just pointing out.

[Bann Duncan]

newcomplex wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Chrono Mizaki wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

It's not that their style is any level invalid, it's that they refuse to compromise to a Western audience.

Not every game has to cater to a 'western audience' or my definition: 'the American Audience'.

I was merely pointing out that if he wants to complain about his JRPG not working out in the Western World, then he at least should take into consideration the factors.

For a game to work in the 'western world' aka America, the game has to be centered around 'America'... or Fantasy Mythology. If FFXIII have Space Bald Marines and was set in a flying Island in America.

The reviewers will still slag it off however, saying it reminds them of Turok, but it's the sales that matter.

Yes Jade Empire was centred around American marines. Oh wait - it wasn't.

It centers around what America thinks constitutes ancient China. Theres quite a lot of fortune-cookie ramblings and martial arts in that game. Basically, it sold well here because it conforms to the norms of what the mainstream expects when we think of ancient China.

Japan's games center around what Japan thinks of certain things. If you wern't conditioned by America's own viewpoints of said subject(or your own country), then you might find their games more palpable. I notice a lot of people who enjoy jRPGs got into them when they were children.

I grew up not in America but around the world (mainly in Asian countries) so I would hardly call my viewpoints controlled by such perceptions.

As a sometime kung fu practitioner and avid reader of the Chinese epics, I found Jade Empire fascinating. I do agree that it is not a realistic portrayal of Ancient China but I don't think that it is meant to be one. It is no less true to Ancient China than Thedas is to Medieval Europe.

By no means was it an accurate portrayal of China at all.   Of course

But it isn't overtly western, the plot could easily pass off as the plot of a Chinese movie or a chinese developed game with less bugs.   I mean, its not like big name chinese movies like The promise (not released in english I think) and Hero are anywhere near accurate portrayals of ancient chinese civilization either.

Well I remember that The Promise had English subtitles in Singapore.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...
BTW, Mizaki and The One, lets see which company's MMO will do better.

In the blue corner, we have BioWare's SWTOR.

In the red corner, we have FF12, I mean FF14. Can't tell the difference.

Square is gonna get squashed by BioWare.

Again.

And the beatings will continue, as long as BioWare will make games, they will be better than JRPGs.

I wouldn't be so confident if I were you. Personally, I'm very tentative about both of them. I'd rather if they stuck to single player.

Or even better, if they both started making their games Co-op, that would be fantastic.

And WoW rapes both of them anyway so its a moot point.

Ain't that the truth. Aww, you made me sad.

[Zavox]

vhatever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

vhatever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I meant that the JRPGs have done everything that the WRPGs have done, and done it first. And many WRPGs qualify only as pale comparisons. Not BioWare though. BioWare does a fantastic job.

Uh, you mean everything JRPGs have done has been copied from WRPGs?

*facepalms*

Neither side copied everything from the other. That's just plain common sense. They may have used the others ideas as templates (and in some cases blantantly copied) but WRPGs didn't take all their stuff from JRPGs or vice versa.

Honestly get off of that argument its retarded.

It's not retarded, it's factual. Using someone's idea as a template is, uhh, COPYING.

He didn't mean that, he only meant that there's no 'RPGs are from Japan/West. It's never that simple, it's a mix of various influences. Some originating from Japan, some from western culture, and some from something else entirely.

[SpideyKnight]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

SpideyKnight wrote...

I prefer character driven stories actually, as I believe them to be a more personal and far less obtuse and overdone affair. That doesn't make what he says all that incorrect. Leading the player by the hand, like a good book, is an easier way to tell a compelling story. Dropping them into a world and telling them to run amok has it's share of cons, and let's not kid ourselves and say that ME2's 4 story missions are somehow the essence of a deep and involving narrative.

I'm not understanding what you mean here.  On one hand, you praise character driven story, which is what ME2 is all about, but then you say that ME2 doesn't have a deep and involving narrative.  And then you say you prefer to have someone holding your hand through a story, saying that dropping into an open world to run amok is bad.

What are you saying here?

You pretty much butchered your comprehension of what I said, so let me try and break it down.  I like character driven stories, an example of which is ME2.  

Understand that there is a difference between a plot driven narrative and a character driven one.  I prefer character, that is what ME2 is.  FFXIII tries to be a mix of both, however to do this the designer feels he must lead you by the hand.  Otherwise it is significantly harder to tell a plot driven narrative in a sand box world.  I agree with this statement, it is harder, it isn't impossible, certainly, but he is correct.

I didn't say that dropping someone into a world to run amok is bad, I said it has it's share of cons, and inversely it's share of pro's as well.  I didn't say the last part but it can be inferred since with con's go pro's.  Leading someone by the hand has it's own share of con's and pro's as well.  I never said I preferred either, in fact I don't and can see the pro's and con's of each and appreciate them both as a means to tell a story.

ME2 doesn't have a powerful narrative, it can't really, it barely acknowledges it's existence.  It's a character driven story, about recruiting characters for a mission, then the mission plays out.  It's been done dozens of times before and will be done hundreds of times more.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

 In this review, Motomu Toriyama (director for FF13) attempts to blame his baby's low western review scores as our fault for "looking at Final Fantasy XIII from a Western point of view."

He also goes on to say, "When you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like..." Then he has the audacity to say this, that it "becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom."

LOL, looks like someone can't take a little competition from our boys at BioWare.  Bethesda is a huge player in WRPGs as well, and their games rock.  I think the release of ME2 is making their palms sweaty as they're getting shown up big by our poor-story-too-open RPGs.

This is so unprofessional for a director, it's like saying, "NO, NO, MY GAME'S NOT BAD, YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AT IT WRONG."  Oh sorry, are we supposed to hire a crew of Japanese people to play your games and write the reviews for them?  Get off the high horse, we're western players, we have a western point of view, and we our WRPGs, Mass Effect especially.


http://kotaku.com/54...western-reviews

This has less to do with Bioware and more to do with people being pissed that Sqaure Enix is making excuses as to why FFXIII is linear despite their previous games being non-linear.  Hell, even Japan is pissed that you run in a straight line in Final Fantasy XIII.

Modifié par ItsFreakinJesus, 17 février 2010 - 03:04 .

[krylo]

Ryzaki wrote...

What do people have against the metrosexuals? Not everyone wants to have overly buff muscle men in their games you know. >_>

Hey, Ryz, here's lookin' at you kid:


Everyone else: Stop making me feel bad about being born man-pretty.

[Amberyl Ravenclaw]

newcomplex wrote...

By no means was it an accurate portrayal of China at all.   Of course

But it isn't overtly western, the plot could easily pass off as the plot of a Chinese movie or a chinese developed game with less bugs.   I mean, its not like big name chinese movies like The promise (not released in english I think) and Hero are anywhere near accurate portrayals of ancient chinese civilization either.

The Promise was crap as far I'm concerned. Stupid movie, nonsensical plot, hammy acting. I've seen far better.

Also, movies themselves as a whole are hardly static and accurate reflections of culture. If you're an avid watcher of Chinese film you'll know that there are several perceived periods of Chinese filmmaking that commentators generalize as having specific and differing traits. Likewise The Promise, Hero, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Banquet, House of Flying Daggers, etc etc are products of their time (and to be honest I would argue that a bit of cultural exoticism and culture-as-spectacle influences their creation, given that one has to appeal for an international audience these days). As you said, nothing ever corresponds to the reality of ancient 'history' as it truly was; it's all the creator's perceptions and current politics / frameworks-of-understanding of the day that influence their making.

P.S. If anyone wants to have a serious discussion about East Asian culture, history and politics, I'm all for it as a history and literature buff... in a separate thread. Word up.  

Modifié par Amberyl Ravenclaw, 17 février 2010 - 03:10 .