I was just thinking about how many of your companions can be freed or not, in one way or another
Sten (obvious)
Zevran (from the Crowes)
Leliana (from Marjolaine and her past)
Morrigan (from Flemeth, maybe...)
Oghren (from Branka's shadow)
Alistair (from a throne and responsibilities he's never wanted)
Liberation shows up as a theme in other places as well, sometimes the PC can accomplish it, other times he can't but witnesses the results of the struggle:
...with Caridin and the destruction of the enslaving Anvil
...of the Alienage elves from literal slavery
...of the casteless in Orzammar
...of the mages who struggle against the chantry
...of Conner from posession
...of the old god from the taint by the dark ritual
Not to mention the umpteen prisoners you can free in various places in the game.
Freedom as a recurrent theme in DA:O (spoilers)
Débuté par
maxernst
, févr. 17 2010 01:46
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#2
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:26
SusanStoHelit
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And the pc, of course, for whom joining the Wardens usually both frees them from something (death, imprisonment, judgement, etc) and also takes away their freedom (freedom of choice, amongst other things).
#3
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:37
darkmax1974
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isn't it always so with the Americans, or should I say specifically the USA? As long as there is a perceived sense of oppression, there is a need for them to forcibly insert their brand of freedom, even if the people do not want it.
#4
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:48
maxernst
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Umm...Bioware's based in Canada, not the U.S.
#5
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:48
DalishRanger
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darkmax1974 wrote...
isn't it always so with the Americans, or should I say specifically the USA? As long as there is a perceived sense of oppression, there is a need for them to forcibly insert their brand of freedom, even if the people do not want it.
Are you talking about the OP's interpretations, or the game itself? Because Bioware's Canadian, not American in the USA sense.
Edit: Ninja'd.
Modifié par DalishRanger, 17 février 2010 - 02:49 .
#6
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:51
SusanStoHelit
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darkmax1974 wrote...
isn't it always so with the Americans, or should I say specifically the USA? As long as there is a perceived sense of oppression, there is a need for them to forcibly insert their brand of freedom, even if the people do not want it.
What the others already said.
Besides, what do you mean 'their brand of freedom'? I'm not American (in any sense of the word) and I'm opposed to slavery and oppression.
#7
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:56
darkmax1974
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"their brand of freedom" refers to freedom and democracy the "American" way, so long as it ultimately benefits the USA.
And no, I did not know that Bioware is Canadian.
And no, I did not know that Bioware is Canadian.
#8
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:01
maxernst
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Well, I don't see that the various kinds of freedom involved in the game have all that much to do with free market capitalism or even democracy. Most of these plotlines concern personal freedom's rather than political ones.
#9
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:07
SusanStoHelit
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And the political freedoms that are involved have nothing to do with American-style democracy.
Back on topic, clearly freedom and liberation are recurrent themes, exactly as the OP suggests. Why? Well, I suppose it makes a theme that most people can relate to. We may not always agree on what particular freedoms are good, and what limits should be placed on freedom, but most of us would agree that freedom itself is good.
In fact, one of the reasons I hate the Orzammar decision (which king) is that neither choice gives you a freedom that I'm happy with.
Back on topic, clearly freedom and liberation are recurrent themes, exactly as the OP suggests. Why? Well, I suppose it makes a theme that most people can relate to. We may not always agree on what particular freedoms are good, and what limits should be placed on freedom, but most of us would agree that freedom itself is good.
In fact, one of the reasons I hate the Orzammar decision (which king) is that neither choice gives you a freedom that I'm happy with.
#10
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:07
Leonia
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I'm an Australian and I still feel that freedom is important. You may be getting a little too political there, Dark, this is a video game and not the real world at all. I could get into a heated discussion about what Americans perceive as freedom and control, but it wouldn't contribute much to the discussion of things related to Dragon Age, would it?
I just played through the city elf origin for the first time last night (had been putting it off because I figured it would really upset me, and it did, but in a powerful story-telling sort of way). The oppression of the elves was just horrible, you really wanted to do something about it. That's the power of story-telling right there, it gives your PC a background and an environment that shapes them. The search for freedom in a desolate world is a powerful driving force. This is dark fantasy after all and there's more going on than just the blight.
I just played through the city elf origin for the first time last night (had been putting it off because I figured it would really upset me, and it did, but in a powerful story-telling sort of way). The oppression of the elves was just horrible, you really wanted to do something about it. That's the power of story-telling right there, it gives your PC a background and an environment that shapes them. The search for freedom in a desolate world is a powerful driving force. This is dark fantasy after all and there's more going on than just the blight.
Modifié par leonia42, 17 février 2010 - 03:08 .
#11
Guest_bythebarricades_*
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:26
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Did this discussion really need to drag in real-life politics? Hardly.
That said, OP, I think you have some good points, but some of those situations are stretching it to the point where you could literally look at any situation and see a matter of freedom. But, I think you hit upon something bigger in that Dragon Age explores how characters interact with the world around them, the degree of freedom they have, and their duty.
In the case of the Dalish and Alienage (City) Elves, we see a society where there is a low degree of freedom for the individual with an incredible amount of responsibility. As a city elf, you are being forced into an arranged marriage. When playing as a Dalish elf, I always got the sense that I belonged to the collective group as opposed to being an individual. As the elves struggle to survive under the human boot, this collective bond forms almost naturally - it is how they continue to exist.
In Dwarven society, we see two distinct castes - nobles in the noble origin - shown as having a high degree of freedom, especially in regards to picking their king. But, the casteless have no freedom, being relegated to the slums of Orzammar with little hope of escaping except through noble-hunting. Overall, Dwarven society is very unfree as people are restricted to their castes and the Assembly/King tightly controls what the people might do.
Human society is difficult to gauge. As there is no commoner origin, we only see the world through the perspective of a nobleman or woman. From that perspective, it would appear Fereldans have a high degree of freedom. Even minor banns have an impact on the political process (the Landsmeet seems akin to Parliament and bordering on a constitutional monarchy) and power flows from the minor lords up to the King in what is really a feudal system. Humans seem to enjoy a good amount of freedom in terms of movement and profession (Sten is baffled by the idea of a farmer turned merchant) but I have seen in passing conversation that people can be conscripted.
As for mages, they are a sign of a truly unfree society, as they are imprisoned from the moment they are discovered and forced to live a life in line with the Chantry's orders.
Coming from societies (for the most part) where our perceived duty ends with the taxes taken out of our paychecks, Ferelden does present an interesting world with far different ideas about how people interact in society.
So right on OP, great food for thought in regards to the society of Ferelden.
That said, OP, I think you have some good points, but some of those situations are stretching it to the point where you could literally look at any situation and see a matter of freedom. But, I think you hit upon something bigger in that Dragon Age explores how characters interact with the world around them, the degree of freedom they have, and their duty.
In the case of the Dalish and Alienage (City) Elves, we see a society where there is a low degree of freedom for the individual with an incredible amount of responsibility. As a city elf, you are being forced into an arranged marriage. When playing as a Dalish elf, I always got the sense that I belonged to the collective group as opposed to being an individual. As the elves struggle to survive under the human boot, this collective bond forms almost naturally - it is how they continue to exist.
In Dwarven society, we see two distinct castes - nobles in the noble origin - shown as having a high degree of freedom, especially in regards to picking their king. But, the casteless have no freedom, being relegated to the slums of Orzammar with little hope of escaping except through noble-hunting. Overall, Dwarven society is very unfree as people are restricted to their castes and the Assembly/King tightly controls what the people might do.
Human society is difficult to gauge. As there is no commoner origin, we only see the world through the perspective of a nobleman or woman. From that perspective, it would appear Fereldans have a high degree of freedom. Even minor banns have an impact on the political process (the Landsmeet seems akin to Parliament and bordering on a constitutional monarchy) and power flows from the minor lords up to the King in what is really a feudal system. Humans seem to enjoy a good amount of freedom in terms of movement and profession (Sten is baffled by the idea of a farmer turned merchant) but I have seen in passing conversation that people can be conscripted.
As for mages, they are a sign of a truly unfree society, as they are imprisoned from the moment they are discovered and forced to live a life in line with the Chantry's orders.
Coming from societies (for the most part) where our perceived duty ends with the taxes taken out of our paychecks, Ferelden does present an interesting world with far different ideas about how people interact in society.
So right on OP, great food for thought in regards to the society of Ferelden.
#12
Guest_bythebarricades_*
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:29
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Leonia, you know what I found interesting.
On my first play through, I played as a human noble and I didn't even realize how mistreated elves were. Even when I got to the Alienage it didn't occur to me that it was really an elf-ghetto or slum. I was just like "Oh, these poor people are all sick". I felt bad when the slavers were there, but it struck me that Loghain just needed to raise money to fuel his civil war and picked a convenient and easy target.
It didn't strike me how bad off elves were till I played through the city elf origin and had it shown to me - how Vaughn saw them as animals; how they were sealed in there for defending themselves. I love how your perspective changes based on these origin stories. When I play as an elf, I really, really, really hate the humans. I kill them whenever I have a chance.
On my first play through, I played as a human noble and I didn't even realize how mistreated elves were. Even when I got to the Alienage it didn't occur to me that it was really an elf-ghetto or slum. I was just like "Oh, these poor people are all sick". I felt bad when the slavers were there, but it struck me that Loghain just needed to raise money to fuel his civil war and picked a convenient and easy target.
It didn't strike me how bad off elves were till I played through the city elf origin and had it shown to me - how Vaughn saw them as animals; how they were sealed in there for defending themselves. I love how your perspective changes based on these origin stories. When I play as an elf, I really, really, really hate the humans. I kill them whenever I have a chance.
#13
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:46
Leonia
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Indeed, I almost felt guilty playing my Dalish elf as she could go any where she wanted in Denerim. Her views on the city elves are quite conflicting, on one hand she sees them as her people and on the other she seems them as aspiring to be human (with their religion being the same as the Chantry and their unwillingness to simply flee the cities and dwell with the Dalish). I was really torn up after experiencing Ferelden from the view of a city elf, the Dalish have it so much better (though they are by no means fully free either, with their nomadic lifestyle and constant hiding from templars and bandits). I was a bit disappointed that my Dalish didn't encounter much racism actually, I would have thought the other races would have viewed her as some sort of savage that was oblivious to the Chantry religion and the social hierarchy of Ferelden.
It is also a bit sad that Andraste was known for freeing the elves but that no elf in Ferelden feels like they are free at all, instead they feel trapped by the very people who worship Andraste and the Maker. They have lost two home-lands and the Dalish can barely remember their original language. But hardship breeds a higher purpose doesn't it? The elves are a resilient race, the city-elves come together as one strong family to survive, the Dalish come together as a collective body to survive. It's not an ideal way to live, but it keeps them going at least. They may have lost their immortality but they are still definitely elves that have not allowed the humans to erase them entirely from existance.
I suppose though, once anyone joins the ranks of the Grey Wardens, they trade one sort of bondage for another, while it may seem like freedom at first glance. They become tainted and their entire life becomes one of duty against the darkspawn. They can't go back and free their frirends in the Alienage, or the Dwarven slums, or the Mages trapped in the Circle of Magi. They simply are forced to join a neutral party and save all the people of Ferelden, the oppressors and the oppressed, for the greater common good.
Ah yes, freedom and oppression, they are definitely re-occuring themes and food for thought. Thanks OP for this thought-provoking thread
It is also a bit sad that Andraste was known for freeing the elves but that no elf in Ferelden feels like they are free at all, instead they feel trapped by the very people who worship Andraste and the Maker. They have lost two home-lands and the Dalish can barely remember their original language. But hardship breeds a higher purpose doesn't it? The elves are a resilient race, the city-elves come together as one strong family to survive, the Dalish come together as a collective body to survive. It's not an ideal way to live, but it keeps them going at least. They may have lost their immortality but they are still definitely elves that have not allowed the humans to erase them entirely from existance.
I suppose though, once anyone joins the ranks of the Grey Wardens, they trade one sort of bondage for another, while it may seem like freedom at first glance. They become tainted and their entire life becomes one of duty against the darkspawn. They can't go back and free their frirends in the Alienage, or the Dwarven slums, or the Mages trapped in the Circle of Magi. They simply are forced to join a neutral party and save all the people of Ferelden, the oppressors and the oppressed, for the greater common good.
Ah yes, freedom and oppression, they are definitely re-occuring themes and food for thought. Thanks OP for this thought-provoking thread
Modifié par leonia42, 17 février 2010 - 03:52 .
#14
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:52
Creature 1
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Thanks for the snorfle!darkmax1974 wrote...
isn't it always so with the Americans, or should I say specifically the USA? As long as there is a perceived sense of oppression, there is a need for them to forcibly insert their brand of freedom, even if the people do not want it.
#15
Posté 17 février 2010 - 03:53
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leonia42 wrote...
I'm an Australian and I still feel that freedom is important. You may be getting a little too political there, Dark, this is a video game and not the real world at all. I could get into a heated discussion about what Americans perceive as freedom and control, but it wouldn't contribute much to the discussion of things related to Dragon Age, would it?
I don't think there's any question about whether some groups in the game are free or not. City elves, casteless, Circle mages, Crow assassins--none of these are really free.
#16
Posté 17 février 2010 - 04:31
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Yes, the struggle for freedom is a pretty big theme. Even the pre-game history that set up the game was a large struggle for freedom from orlais.
#17
Posté 17 février 2010 - 04:58
Thalorin1919
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darkmax1974 wrote...
isn't it always so with the Americans, or should I say specifically the USA? As long as there is a perceived sense of oppression, there is a need for them to forcibly insert their brand of freedom, even if the people do not want it.
Are you trying to diss America? Or make Freedom seem like a bad thing? Or both?
And Bioware is based in Canada.
#18
Posté 17 février 2010 - 01:54
darkmax1974
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I just want to diss USA, not America.
#19
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:02
maxernst
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I guess what I find interesting is not just the struggles for freedom of oppressed groups as the personal struggles of nearly all the characters. The PC and most of the companions were coerced into their life paths. I'm not sure if any of them go to where they are by choice.
#20
Posté 17 février 2010 - 02:46
darkmax1974
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Being coerced into doing something is a choice.
