108 réponses à ce sujet

[Lothial]

The geth are a threat to everyone the same as any other advanced race. Like any other race they will analyze the intelligence they can gather, and use that to make decisions that they feel will advance the interest of the geth. If circumstances arise where that advancement is in conflict with other species they will negotiate, fight, or flee. The system through which they communicate, and make decisions is much more advanced, and mechanical, but what makes geth sentient is self awareness, and self awareness leads to self interest. They are not altruistic.

[Zulu_DFA]

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I assume that those geth were heretics.

I don't think they were. I mean, they had a quarian ancestor VI in their main base singing. Why would the heretics place any value on quarian ancestor VIs? They'd be more likely to destroy them then use them, I think.

Start Mass Effect One, go to Noveria, save Liara, go to Virmire (and don't go to Feros or Armstrong Nebula). On Virmire kill the krogan "doctor" and his asari "assitant", then got to the far side of the room. Hack the geth terminal there, and enkindle this: "Saren ordered the Geth to establish outposts in the Armstrong cluster, as a staging grounds for further attacks into the Citadel space." What was a quarian VI doing there? I don't know. I killed all geth there and not a single platform tried to tell me that. May be I just happened to storm in right in the middle of their 5-minute hatred break.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I assume that those geth were heretics.

I don't think they were. I mean, they had a quarian ancestor VI in their main base singing. Why would the heretics place any value on quarian ancestor VIs? They'd be more likely to destroy them then use them, I think.

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

BTW: Someone above me got the correct answer. So, mine didn't make sense at all.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[Ajspeed]

Rankao wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

The Quarians assume the Geth are hostile, and only try to destroy them without ever trying to negotiate. The Geth are only a threat to the Quarians. No one else.

The threat to a man bashing his head against the wall is not the wall. It's the man himself.

The Quarians are losers in every way. Have anyone noticed that Kal'Reegar refers to Tali as "Ma'am", although he is supposedly a bit older then her? And Tali graciously tries to play democratic and asks him to just call her "Tali"? And Kal'Reegar epicly fails: "Working on it, ma'am!" This can have just one posible explanation. Tali is freaking royalty and Kal'Reegar is freaking peasantry.

And it is this arrogant mentality that prevented the quarians to communicate with their mechanic slaves 300 years ago and is still preventing them from the return to their homeworld. Just listen to Admiral Xen (preferably with Legion in the party). They don't want to just return to their homeworld. They want to win this war. And they want not to just win it but to reenslave the Geth, as a matter of revenge.

That's a bit cheap. Have you talked to the other admirals and investigated their point of view? There is also one who is described as a geth apologist. That guy thinks the quarians started the war and he wants peace with the geth.

And it looks like he is in the minority, which is rather sad. There are still plenty of Quarians (like tali) that take joy in the idea of killing off the Geth. Though at least Shepard's actions can help to eliminate this attitude.
 

really how? I've never been able to successfully do this? she just tolerates legion. 

Legion: Geth do not infiltrate!.... Geth dont intentionally infiltrate

[Rankao]

Empiro wrote...

I can fully understand why Quarians would be upset. At first, the Geth might have been fighting for self defense, but it became genocide. There were billions of Quarians before the war, the vast majority of them unarmed civilians, children, and the elderly. The Geth killed 99.9% of them or so. Only 1 in 1000 survived, and that's a staggering figure. I don't know where you people work or go to school, but if you're in high school or you work for a pretty large company of a few thousand, imagine that everyone, and I mean everyone getting killed, except for maybe a handful of people, all because your government leaders decided to do something stupid.

If the Geth had simply left or forced the surrender of the Quarians after they defeated their military, I'd be more sympathetic to the Geth, but they demonstrate  that they had absolutely no qualms about killing billions upon billions of unarmed Quarians. Sure, they aren't hostile now, but it's pretty clear that if they eventually conclude that the key to their future is the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, they'd do it without any hesitation. It's the lack of conscience that concerns me more about the Geth than anything else.

Note that I think in true Bioware style, in ME3, we'll find that the situation is more complex than any of us anticipate.

Well I think its a chain reactions. The Quarians struct first, but then the geth struck back. Then the Quarians retaliated to that attack. Basically this happened till the Geth decided that the destruction of the Quarians was necessary for their survival.  If you look at the history of earth, genocide is Part C of evolution. 

[Empiro]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I assume that those geth were heretics.

I don't think they were. I mean, they had a quarian ancestor VI in their main base singing. Why would the heretics place any value on quarian ancestor VIs? They'd be more likely to destroy them then use them, I think.

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

Like I said, it also wouldn't make sense given that if you go to Virmire, and conclude they're part of Saren's group, and then collect the Geth data, to give it to Tali anyways even though she wanted data from independent Geth. This assumes that Shepard and Tali aren't both incompetent.

I suspect that all this is just a semi-recton by Bioware. I bet they had intended originally for all Geth to be hostile, except that some of them joined Saren and took direct orders from him, and are considered "Saren's Geth". I agree that we'll see in ME3 though.

[Ajspeed]

Empiro wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

The Quarians assume the Geth are hostile, and only try to destroy them without ever trying to negotiate. The Geth are only a threat to the Quarians. No one else.

The threat to a man bashing his head against the wall is not the wall. It's the man himself.

The Quarians are losers in every way. Have anyone noticed that Kal'Reegar refers to Tali as "Ma'am", although he is supposedly a bit older then her? And Tali graciously tries to play democratic and asks him to just call her "Tali"? And Kal'Reegar epicly fails: "Working on it, ma'am!" This can have just one posible explanation. Tali is freaking royalty and Kal'Reegar is freaking peasantry.

And it is this arrogant mentality that prevented the quarians to communicate with their mechanic slaves 300 years ago and is still preventing them from the return to their homeworld. Just listen to Admiral Xen (preferably with Legion in the party). They don't want to just return to their homeworld. They want to win this war. And they want not to just win it but to reenslave the Geth, as a matter of revenge.

That's a bit cheap. Have you talked to the other admirals and investigated their point of view? There is also one who is described as a geth apologist. That guy thinks the quarians started the war and he wants peace with the geth.

I can fully understand why Quarians would be upset. At first, the Geth might have been fighting for self defense, but it became genocide. There were billions of Quarians before the war, the vast majority of them unarmed civilians, children, and the elderly. The Geth killed 99.9% of them or so. Only 1 in 1000 survived, and that's a staggering figure. I don't know where you people work or go to school, but if you're in high school or you work for a pretty large company of a few thousand, imagine that everyone, and I mean everyone getting killed, except for maybe a handful of people, all because your government leaders decided to do something stupid.

If the Geth had simply left or forced the surrender of the Quarians after they defeated their military, I'd be more sympathetic to the Geth, but they demonstrate  that they had absolutely no qualms about killing billions upon billions of unarmed Quarians. Sure, they aren't hostile now, but it's pretty clear that if they eventually conclude that the key to their future is the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, they'd do it without any hesitation. It's the lack of conscience that concerns me more about the Geth than anything else.

Note that I think in true Bioware style, in ME3, we'll find that the situation is more complex than any of us anticipate.

Youve got to get yourself onto the Polictical stage
And the Quarains seem quite content commit Genocide on, one their own Creations, Two a new species and Three the First Full AI race

[Empiro]

Rankao wrote...

Empiro wrote...

I can fully understand why Quarians would be upset. At first, the Geth might have been fighting for self defense, but it became genocide. There were billions of Quarians before the war, the vast majority of them unarmed civilians, children, and the elderly. The Geth killed 99.9% of them or so. Only 1 in 1000 survived, and that's a staggering figure. I don't know where you people work or go to school, but if you're in high school or you work for a pretty large company of a few thousand, imagine that everyone, and I mean everyone getting killed, except for maybe a handful of people, all because your government leaders decided to do something stupid.

If the Geth had simply left or forced the surrender of the Quarians after they defeated their military, I'd be more sympathetic to the Geth, but they demonstrate  that they had absolutely no qualms about killing billions upon billions of unarmed Quarians. Sure, they aren't hostile now, but it's pretty clear that if they eventually conclude that the key to their future is the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, they'd do it without any hesitation. It's the lack of conscience that concerns me more about the Geth than anything else.

Note that I think in true Bioware style, in ME3, we'll find that the situation is more complex than any of us anticipate.

Well I think its a chain reactions. The Quarians struct first, but then the geth struck back. Then the Quarians retaliated to that attack. Basically this happened till the Geth decided that the destruction of the Quarians was necessary for their survival.  If you look at the history of earth, genocide is Part C of evolution. 

That's why I'd be concerned about the Geth though. They don't think killing sentient biological beings is immoral or anything all. They don't attack because they have no reason to right now, and that's it. If some day the conclude that their future, whatever it is, involves the destruction of all biological life, they'd do it without hesitation, and there'd be no negotiating or surrendering to them.

[Schneidend]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint. The codex claims the geth destroyed all the quarian ancestor VIs post-rebellion, but I think this is just an assumption the quarians have made, given the codex is based on relatively common knowledge. I believe the true geth utilize the ancestor VIs for guidance, among other things. It's also entirely possible the geth like music.

Regardless, it's obvious the true geth are at least a bit reverent of quarians. You don't call somebody you resent The Creators.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Empiro wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I assume that those geth were heretics.

I don't think they were. I mean, they had a quarian ancestor VI in their main base singing. Why would the heretics place any value on quarian ancestor VIs? They'd be more likely to destroy them then use them, I think.

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

Like I said, it also wouldn't make sense given that if you go to Virmire, and conclude they're part of Saren's group, and then collect the Geth data, to give it to Tali anyways even though she wanted data from independent Geth. This assumes that Shepard and Tali aren't both incompetent.

I suspect that all this is just a semi-recton by Bioware. I bet they had intended originally for all Geth to be hostile, except that some of them joined Saren and took direct orders from him, and are considered "Saren's Geth". I agree that we'll see in ME3 though.

I agree. I even withdraw my response. It doesn't make much sense. Still, I think there could be more than 2 groups now that I think about it.

Yes... I agree also that BioWare initially wanted all geth to be hostile. At least it feels that way. Obviously, that wouldn't make sense.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 février 2010 - 07:11 .

[Ajspeed]

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint. The codex claims the geth destroyed all the quarian ancestor VIs post-rebellion, but I think this is just an assumption the quarians have made, given the codex is based on relatively common knowledge. I believe the true geth utilize the ancestor VIs for guidance, among other things. It's also entirely possible the geth like music.

Regardless, it's obvious the true geth are at least a bit reverent of quarians. You don't call somebody you resent The Creators.

True because weve never not met any hostile geth till Legion and all geth previous couldnt talk anyway and were heretics. Legion is our first honest View on what the Geth believe and want

[Empiro]

Yeah, I think I'll just leave it off by saying that it's really hard to tell what Bioware really intends, since there's a pretty big shift in what they present in ME 1 vs ME 2.

Nonetheless, I'll still hold my belief that responding to genocide with genocide doesn't earn you any sympathy points in my book. Add on top of that a lack of conscience and morals (at least in the human sense that most organic races in ME seem to also have), and you can bet that you'll have my distrust.

[z4t001]

i remember hearing somewhere it is the geths intention to exist in hyperspace outside of space/time, all connected to a super-terminal that will grant them their maximum collective intelligence.. much like that story of the super computer that figures out how to recreate existence or something?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ajspeed wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint either. I wonder if there is a third group. One that worships the quarians as gods, because quarians were their creators. I believe there must be different viewpoints on the quarian/geth issue among geth, just as the different viewpoints on that subject among the quarians. We'll see what happens in ME3.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense from a non-heretic viewpoint. The codex claims the geth destroyed all the quarian ancestor VIs post-rebellion, but I think this is just an assumption the quarians have made, given the codex is based on relatively common knowledge. I believe the true geth utilize the ancestor VIs for guidance, among other things. It's also entirely possible the geth like music.

Regardless, it's obvious the true geth are at least a bit reverent of quarians. You don't call somebody you resent The Creators.

True because weve never not met any hostile geth till Legion and all geth previous couldnt talk anyway and were heretics. Legion is our first honest View on what the Geth believe and want

I withdraw the above statement. I was proven wrong by someone else. The geth in question were still heretics. There is proof of that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Empiro wrote...

Sure, they aren't hostile now, but it's pretty clear that if they eventually conclude that the key to their future is the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, they'd do it without any hesitation.

And the quickest way to convince them of that is to massively attack them.

Look, the Geth's "ecological niche" allows possibility of a more succesful coexistense than between any two given organic species. Moreover, any form of organic life is driven to expand, that is to conquer more living space. Which is the essense of aggression - conquering of (more) living space for the aggressor. Whereas the Geth showed no such drive until contacted by Sovereign. They were, simply put, inactive. Legion is the first true geth platform sent outside the Perseus Veil with a single task: find out WTF was that Nazara Old Machine up to. In the process it was deemed necessary for that platform to contact Shepard-Commander. So far they've showed no more hostile intentions than real life nuclear bombs resting somewhere in underground bunkers.

If you think that nuclear bombs are a threat, that the geth are too, sure. But the nuclear bombs are no threat. It's the irresponsible people, who have access to them, that are the threat. The same goes to the Geth. Reapers are a threat (obvious). And Quarians, who wan to destroy or super-hack the Geth are a threat.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 10:55 .

[Ajspeed]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Sure, they aren't hostile now, but it's pretty clear that if they eventually conclude that the key to their future is the destruction of all sentient life in the galaxy, they'd do it without any hesitation.

And the quickest way to convince them of that is to massively attack them.

Look, the Geth's "ecological niche" allows possibility of a more succesful coexistense than between any two organic species. Moreover, any form of organic is driven to expand, that is to conquer more living space. Whereas the Geth showed no such drive until contacted by Sovereign. They were, simply put, inactive. Legion is the first true geth platform outside the Perseus veil with a single task: find out WTF was that Nazara Old Machine up to. In the process it was decided to contact Shepard-Commander. So far they show no more hostile intentions than real life nuclear bombs resting somewhere in underground bunkers.

If you think that nuclear bombs are a threat, that the geth are too, sure. But the nuclear bombs are no threat. It's the irresponsible people, who have access to them, that are the threat. The same goes to the Geth. Reapers are a threat (obvious). And Quarians, who wan to destroy or super-hack the Geth are a threat.

Well true but Think about the citadel its not owned by anyone race and would be a good ground for the Geth to come to the realisation of other species on there

[Kwonnern]

If we built some advanced toasters that pushed us away from Earth, i'd be pretty miffed too.

[Ajspeed]

yess better destroy all toasters before that happens or The Terminator theory as i like to call it

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ajspeed wrote...

Well true but Think about the citadel its not owned by anyone race and would be a good ground for the Geth to come to the realisation of other species on there

I think the geth are not shortsighted. They already know what's out there.

[UnstableMongoose]

All the assumptions in this thread hang on the assumption that anything that Legion tells you is remotely truthful. Sure, I thought Legion was an amazing character, but being asked to believe that a group of machine intelligences that were all created by the same people and operate in the same manner could have such a violent schism is not anything more than plausible. It's a bit of a stretch, and there's no proof that it ever happened besides Legion's word of honor and a mission to a "Heretic" station that could have quite easily been a set up. If the geth/heretic situation turns out to be true, I won't be surprised, but if Legion stabs Shepard in the back in Mass Effect 3 I won't be surprised either. The Reapers are masters of subtlety and shadow games.

[Zulu_DFA]

Empiro wrote...

Like I said, it also wouldn't make sense given that if you go to Virmire, and conclude they're part of Saren's group, and then collect the Geth data, to give it to Tali anyways even though she wanted data from independent Geth. This assumes that Shepard and Tali aren't both incompetent.

Who said Tali was ever competent? She is full of daddy issues, and quarian aristocratic bullcrap, and horror tales about how bad the geth were when they refused to switch off. Well, Kal'Reegar is much more wise a quarian in his working class ignorance. He just shoots things.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[Ajspeed]

It has been said like 3 times so far in this thread if your going to distrust Legion might as well start distrusting everyone? Why be Prejudice to just the AI? Why not go Smack the assasin's head into the desk for doing what he does and believing that he doesnt think hes to blame for all his hits? or the Crazy girl living in the lowest part of the **** committed so many wrong doings

[Lmaoboat]

Kwonnern wrote...

If we built some advanced toasters that pushed us away from Earth, i'd be pretty miffed too.

If was a sentient lifeform, and some organic matter tried to kill me, I, too, would be miffed.

[Sarcastic]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

R-F wrote...

on insanity they are a threat to me:wizard:

after talking to Legion a lot i believe that the Quarians need to try something else, or maybe go find another home planet. it's their own fault for experimenting with AI, that never, ever works.

Why? According to Legion, the Geth see themselves as only caretakers of the Quarian homeworld. They actually live in space stations above it, and see it as a memorial to the Morning War. Provided Shepard helps broker peace between the Quarians and the Geth, I see no reason why the Quarians couldn't return to their homeworld.

In fact I recall him saying the Geth dont live on any planets at all, that it is more efficient to live in space stations. The incursion missions were you rooting Geth off planets not space stations. The only reason I would not belive the Geth were true and not heretics is the pop up messege that you get in ME1 when you kill the last geth on the last world. It states that a transmission is sent back beyond the veil. I also cannot recall if legion ever mentions any of the heretics staying behind the veil once they splintered. Another thing to consider is that Reaper spikes are all around the entrances to a couple of the bases. I am pretty sure true geth would not be using those.

So I ended up with 2 plot facts pointing to them as Heretics and a plot hole pointing them as Geth. Keep in mind that these heretics may have been doing something else besides directly helping Sovereign.

[Sarcastic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Like I said, it also wouldn't make sense given that if you go to Virmire, and conclude they're part of Saren's group, and then collect the Geth data, to give it to Tali anyways even though she wanted data from independent Geth. This assumes that Shepard and Tali aren't both incompetent.

Who said Tali was ever competent? She is full of daddy issues, and quarian aristocratic bullcrap, and horror tales about how bad the geth were when they refused to switch off. Well, Kal'Reegar is much more wise a quarian in his working class ignorance. He just shoots things.

lol what spoiled young women doesnt have daddy issues? Seriously, every single chick except Kelly that I have talked to in the mass effect universe has family or daddy issues. This leads me to belive that the writer of the character plot lines has daddy issues.