71 réponses à ce sujet

[krsboss]

...after hearing 'so' much about cunning based rogues, especially with bard specialization & dual wielding...I decided to make one...
ok....yes, it certainly makes a lot of the rogue skills better (lockpicking & persuasion)...and yes, the increasing bonusses from Song of Courage are nice....not to mention damage with lethality....
however, I'm finding it particularly boring! ...as a main character, I need a little more fun...cunning based is very facilative; I just find I'm better off taking Leliana with me and  raising her cunning instead...with a bit of levelling she's perfectly good at opening locks...yes it does mean I have to take a few ranks in coercion, but oh well....

enjoy, krs

[mosspit]

Didn't know it was.

[DJ0000]

Cunning rogues aren't just for lockpicking and coercion. With the correct talents they are the ultimate damage dealers.



There is a lot of disagreement as to which is better, dex or cun. I prefer cun personally.

[lisakover]

Cunning rogues are godlike.

[Xavier Eledhwen]

Cunning rogues rocks, I used the Duelist/Assassin specialist, I ran my cunning and Dex and just stuck with Daggers.

[Taiko Roshi]

Is using duel daggers for a cunning rouge better than main-hand sword off-hand dagger? Also, is using cunning (I'm on xbox so no dex for me) a viable build for a rouge archer?

[krsboss]

..my cunning rogue is dual-wield dagger, with all the appropriate talents (so far, it's around lvl 16 atm)...I went with duelist / bard, but haven't taken any duelist talents yet; as needed to get talents like combat stealth, momentum, 3rd dual wield talent, song of courage, etc...



...as I said in my original post, the bonuses from having high cunning are great, but I had much more fun playing with a 2h warrior! ...well I had more fun with my dexterity based dual wield rogue aswell....anyways, different strokes for different folkes!

[beancounter501]

I agree with the OP. I would take a dex rogue over a cunning rogue anyday. Plus it is godawful boring to just sit there and auto-attack.

[mosspit]

Repetitive? You bet. It is basically a build that strives on auto-atks. I think only an AW filled to brim with sustainables, low mana and no bloodmagic can beat a cun rogue in terms of repetitiveness.

Lesser Micro? No. This is a class that needs repositioning for just about every single enemy. Even after coupdegrace and combat movement, there is still a fair bit of micro to do.

Overrate in Fun Factor? I have no idea what is there to discuss about. It has always been positioned as a class that depends on auto-atk/backstabs, unless there are misconceptions to its primary form of damage dealing. It is not fun, and to my knowledge not previously considered to be, in terms of diversity of atk comparing to other builds.

Overrate in terms of Performance? No. Although it requires a fair bit of party support/buff, it is still one of the best, if not the best, single target weapon dpser in the current game. It is also largely built as a glas cannon.

Modifié par mosspit, 18 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[Taiko Roshi]

mosspit wrote...

Repetitive? You bet. It is basically a build that strives on auto-atks. I think only an AW filled to brim with sustainables, low mana and no bloodmagic can beat a cun rogue in terms of repetitiveness.

Lesser Micro? No. This is a class that needs repositioning for just about every single enemy. Even after coupdegrace and combat movement, there is still a fair bit of micro to do.

Overrate in Fun Factor? I have no idea what is there to discuss about. It has always been positioned as a class that depends on auto-atk/backstabs, unless there are misconceptions to its primary form of damage dealing. It is not fun, and to my knowledge not previously considered to be, in terms of diversity of atk comparing to other builds.

Overrate in terms of Performance? No. Although it requires a fair bit of party support/buff, it is still one of the best, if not the best, single target weapon dpser in the current game. It is also largely built as a glas cannon.

Yep, and rolling a tank is not repetitive? Nor rolling a mage...

[bri193]

With rogues, it is a matter of first socks, then shoes ...

All that CUN means squat if you cannot hit something... Rogues needs DEX to hit on a reliable basis. In early game all you need is enough CUN to level your rogue talents, while you build DEX. Once your rogue talents are sorted, then pump CUN, but not exclusively. Personally, I prefer 50/50 DEX/CUN for DW builds relying on kit bonuses, and 60/40 for Archery builds.

[mosspit]

Actually they can.... juz that flanking gives atk bonus. +30atk iirc. But they can still miss.

[pkroasteducklings]

cunning rogoues-good supportive character.

[soteria]

I think they're fun to play because of the positioning requirements. A backstabbing rogue takes almost as much micro as a mage...



And yeah, between the large flanking bonus and loads of stuns, hitting isn't such a big problem.

[Meliorist13]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

Is using duel daggers for a cunning rouge better than main-hand sword off-hand dagger? Also, is using cunning (I'm on xbox so no dex for me) a viable build for a rouge archer?

See this post here: - DPS calculations for a DW rogue (Dragon Age: Origins - Dragon Age: Origins Gameplay, Strategy and Tactics (Spoilers Allowed)) | BioWare Social Network 
But to answer your question (optimally) Yes.

 If you want a Sword/Axe main hand and a dagger off-hand, I believe you are better off with a Dwarf Commoner Strength Rogue.

[Darkkyn46]

bri193 wrote...

With rogues, it is a matter of first socks, then shoes ...
All that CUN means squat if you cannot hit something... Rogues needs DEX to hit on a reliable basis. In early game all you need is enough CUN to level your rogue talents, while you build DEX. Once your rogue talents are sorted, then pump CUN, but not exclusively. Personally, I prefer 50/50 DEX/CUN for DW builds relying on kit bonuses, and 60/40 for Archery builds.

Get your dex high enough to get whatever daggers you want (with bonuses) and your hit rate will be fine.  You're missing out on damage by putting any points into dex after it hits that level, and not gaining anything.

Modifié par Darkkyn46, 18 février 2010 - 06:08 .

[Darkkyn46]

krsboss wrote...

...after hearing 'so' much about cunning based rogues, especially with bard specialization & dual wielding...I decided to make one...
ok....yes, it certainly makes a lot of the rogue skills better (lockpicking & persuasion)...and yes, the increasing bonusses from Song of Courage are nice....not to mention damage with lethality....
however, I'm finding it particularly boring! ...as a main character, I need a little more fun...cunning based is very facilative; I just find I'm better off taking Leliana with me and  raising her cunning instead...with a bit of levelling she's perfectly good at opening locks...yes it does mean I have to take a few ranks in coercion, but oh well....

enjoy, krs

You're mixing two things in with this complaint.  The effectiveness of a high cunning rogue is unquestionable, they're exceptionally effective.  So calling them overrated from that standpoint would be flat out wrong.

Whether or not you find them fun to play is a different story and completely subjective.  I may play a mage in this game just to get to 20 and the acheivement and then never touch him again.  I hate playing mages, but I wouldn't call them overrated.  Just boring.
:happy:

[Silensfurtim]

those who think that CUN Rogues suck are either playing it solo or not using party synergy. ergo, youre doing it wrong lol.



my CUN Rogue can get his attack rating upto 145 with the help of party buffs. while backstabbing it can reach upto 160-165. so no, i dont miss anymore.



you need to micro a CUN rogue to be effective. unlike DEX rogues where you can just autoattack and because of high attack and def ratings. thats frigging boring. you might as well just use your main character as an NPC lol.

[DKJaigen]

cunning rogues are lethal single target dps. i prefer strenght rogues that do better aoe and have more surviability. but i dont think anyone said that cunning sucks

[krsboss]

 

Darkkyn46 wrote...

You're mixing two things in with this complaint.  The effectiveness of a high cunning rogue is unquestionable, they're exceptionally effective.  So calling them overrated from that standpoint would be flat out wrong.

Whether or not you find them fun to play is a different story and completely subjective.  I may play a mage in this game just to get to 20 and the acheivement and then never touch him again.  I hate playing mages, but I wouldn't call them overrated.  Just boring.

Not at all, though maybe I should elaborate further...I read a lot of posts about cunning based rogues on the forums, and without having to cite a lot of references, we all know there are a lot of them!...so I decided to 'give it a go'...

...so, you can open any lock & pass any persuasion check without needing to put (m)any ranks into these, naturally saving talents...however, by the time 24 level dexterity based rogue hit level 24, she had all of the dual wield talent tree, all of the rogue tree and a few choice specialization talents aswell...not to mention too many skills to really care about...so; what I mean is that there are plenty of talents to be had by the time you complete DA:O so it's more a choice of necessity....

...anyway, from what numerous posts would imply, and several posts in this topic, is that cunning based rogues are godly...and I find this not to be the case. A forum junkie maybe able to pull DPS calculations out of some place only the maker knows, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. For starters the attack has to hit first! Also DPS calculations can be misleading: a single massive attack that instantly kills a target but has a long time between hits, can have a apparently low DPS, however if 1 hit is enough, then you need to find a new target...whilst seemingly high DPS that comes from lots of small damaging hits that fire more frequently have more chance of missing (reducing final end DPS) whilst also the affect of armor is greater as you lose more to armor penetration!

...my orginal post might have mentioned that I am finding it boring, which is certainly subjective, and certainly my opinion but that was not what I meant by overrated. From reading posts that other forum users have made, I was lead to believe that a cunning based rogue was 'the best' DA:O build you could make....I have not experienced this and this is why I stated that they were overrated.

...krs

[Darkkyn46]

krsboss wrote...

 

Darkkyn46 wrote...

You're mixing two things in with this complaint.  The effectiveness of a high cunning rogue is unquestionable, they're exceptionally effective.  So calling them overrated from that standpoint would be flat out wrong.

Whether or not you find them fun to play is a different story and completely subjective.  I may play a mage in this game just to get to 20 and the acheivement and then never touch him again.  I hate playing mages, but I wouldn't call them overrated.  Just boring.

Not at all, though maybe I should elaborate further...I read a lot of posts about cunning based rogues on the forums, and without having to cite a lot of references, we all know there are a lot of them!...so I decided to 'give it a go'...

...so, you can open any lock & pass any persuasion check without needing to put (m)any ranks into these, naturally saving talents...however, by the time 24 level dexterity based rogue hit level 24, she had all of the dual wield talent tree, all of the rogue tree and a few choice specialization talents aswell...not to mention too many skills to really care about...so; what I mean is that there are plenty of talents to be had by the time you complete DA:O so it's more a choice of necessity....

...anyway, from what numerous posts would imply, and several posts in this topic, is that cunning based rogues are godly...and I find this not to be the case. A forum junkie maybe able to pull DPS calculations out of some place only the maker knows, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. For starters the attack has to hit first! Also DPS calculations can be misleading: a single massive attack that instantly kills a target but has a long time between hits, can have a apparently low DPS, however if 1 hit is enough, then you need to find a new target...whilst seemingly high DPS that comes from lots of small damaging hits that fire more frequently have more chance of missing (reducing final end DPS) whilst also the affect of armor is greater as you lose more to armor penetration!

...my orginal post might have mentioned that I am finding it boring, which is certainly subjective, and certainly my opinion but that was not what I meant by overrated. From reading posts that other forum users have made, I was lead to believe that a cunning based rogue was 'the best' DA:O build you could make....I have not experienced this and this is why I stated that they were overrated.

...krs

"The best you can make" is a subjective statement and can be neither proven or disproven depending on your preferred playstyle.  I don't understand the "to-hit" myth.  I always go high cunning with enough dex to get the gear I want including items, and finish the game with a 98 or 99% hit ratio.  That's poor?  I still get all of the DW line, and momentum backstabbing a target as a high cunning rogue tears stuff up.  In past games I used to get into calculating DPS and attack speed and all that, to the point where I pointed out something in one game that the devs weren't aware of.  Nowadays I don't have the patience or the desire.

I will say though that if you find playing a high dex, DW rogue more enjoyable then it certainly is a superior spec for you.  After all let's be honest; unless you're intentionally making the game more difficult (playing nightmare solo etc), it just ain't that hard.  I believe the emphasis is more on storyline than it is in making the perfect spec anyway.