71 réponses à ce sujet

[Timortis]

Darkkyn46 wrote...

 I don't understand the "to-hit" myth.  I always go high cunning with enough dex to get the gear I want including items, and finish the game with a 98 or 99% hit ratio.  That's poor?

Unbuffed Cunning Rogue hit rate is atrocious. For me, a character that needs 3 others just to be able function at all is too dependent, to each his own.

How many misses do you count?

http://www.wegame.co.../cunning-rogue/

Modifié par Timortis, 19 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[JoeyJoeReal]

Dex all the way! Archers are an absolute BLAST to play as, I'm doing duel right now and I'm kinda bored with it already. Yes it's strong, but archers can get just as powerful with the right stuff.

[mosspit]

krsboss wrote...
 ...anyway, from what numerous posts would imply, and several posts in this topic, is that cunning based rogues are godly...and I find this not to be the case. A forum junkie maybe able to pull DPS calculations out of some place only the maker knows, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. For starters the attack has to hit first! Also DPS calculations can be misleading: a single massive attack that instantly kills a target but has a long time between hits, can have a apparently low DPS, however if 1 hit is enough, then you need to find a new target...whilst seemingly high DPS that comes from lots of small damaging hits that fire more frequently have more chance of missing (reducing final end DPS) whilst also the affect of armor is greater as you lose more to armor penetration!

If you notice the posts you read mostly mentioned that they are party dependent. Meaning their hitrate IS atrocious and require party buffs and support to improve. Things like rally, heroic offence. To be fair, this is a build that throws in everything including the kitchen sink to get the max dmg. Alone IT WILL SUCK. But a cun rogue is NOT meant to played effectively solo. In fact, this a build that requires a party to be built around it.

Whether the tradeoff is worthwhile is up to the individual but anyone who wanna try this build shd ard have this in mind. Knowing this, I do not think that it is an overrated class build.

Modifié par mosspit, 19 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[Silensfurtim]

mosspit wrote...

krsboss wrote...
 ...anyway, from what numerous posts would imply, and several posts in this topic, is that cunning based rogues are godly...and I find this not to be the case. A forum junkie maybe able to pull DPS calculations out of some place only the maker knows, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. For starters the attack has to hit first! Also DPS calculations can be misleading: a single massive attack that instantly kills a target but has a long time between hits, can have a apparently low DPS, however if 1 hit is enough, then you need to find a new target...whilst seemingly high DPS that comes from lots of small damaging hits that fire more frequently have more chance of missing (reducing final end DPS) whilst also the affect of armor is greater as you lose more to armor penetration!

If you notice the posts you read mostly mentioned that they are party dependent. Meaning their hitrate IS atrocious and require party buffs and support to improve. Things like rally, heroic offence. To be fair, this is a build that throws in everything including the kitchen sink to get the max dmg. Alone IT WILL SUCK. But a cun rogue is NOT meant to played effectively solo. In fact, this a build that requires a party to be built around it.

Whether the tradeoff is worthwhile is up to the individual but anyone who wanna try this build shd ard have this in mind. Knowing this, I do not think that it is an overrated class build.

unfortunately, these "SOLO-IS-THE-ONLY-WAY-TO-GO" people find it so hard to understand. 

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 19 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[Timortis]

Well if people didn't call them "god-like" maybe there would be less confusion. God needing buffs from Alistair and Leliana to kill a Hurlock just feels wrong, but maybe that's just me.

[EccentricSage]

I was giving Dex priority over Cun but realized I was doing dismal damage, and even after getting Grandmaster lockpicking there are still things I couldn't unlock. I also wasn't as good as I'd like to be at coercion. Things really picked up for me when I started to balance it out! I also came to realize that it's a lot more fun if my character has decent Wil, so that I have enough stamina to use all my specializations. Zevran and I are indeed too awesome by far now. lol Which he has reason to proclaim quite often. We both are heavy on stealth attacks even though my character wears medium armor. I've gotten good at using them in unison to take out mages or archers before having whomever is tanking run up and attack.

My favorite is when Zevran and I both target enemies that are right next to each other, but facing opposite directions. Then we go through a move that weakens the targets, then stun, sweep, then we switch targets for back stabs and flurry. Followed up by reposte if they aren't dead yet. Also when both my character and Zev used flurry on a frozen drake with full health, it shattered.

Honestly... I don't know how I'll convince myself to try a non-rogue character. Or to use Leliana. She always dies unless she gets constant babysitting, and her dual wield needs so much work. Zev on the other hand held his own pretty well from the moment I got him. I just spec Zev and my rogue a bit different, but both with assassin, and they are a force to be reckoned with. I highly recommend trying a dual assassin combination. Lots of strategic possibilities, but also a lot of flexibility that allows them to really regain control of the field should you be ambushed and flanked.


*edit* And the Poisons and granades!    Soon I'll start useing traps in conjunction, but these alone have been enough.  Any rogue or warrior I have is taught basic poison, and then Zev makes them.  'Tis wonderous when used wisely, with backup from Morrigan.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 19 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[Haplose]

krsboss wrote...

..my cunning rogue is dual-wield dagger, with all the appropriate talents (so far, it's around lvl 16 atm)...I went with duelist / bard, but haven't taken any duelist talents yet; as needed to get talents like combat stealth, momentum, 3rd dual wield talent, song of courage, etc...

...as I said in my original post, the bonuses from having high cunning are great, but I had much more fun playing with a 2h warrior! ...well I had more fun with my dexterity based dual wield rogue aswell....anyways, different strokes for different folkes!

Uhhh, no Assasin? WHY?

I wouldn't even skip Assasin on a dual-wielding Dex-based Rogue... but with a Cun-based Rogue, you get even more benfit with boosted Expose Weakness!
Feast of the Fallen is fantastic! It allows for a much more active playstyle (as in, less boring)...


P.S. I prefer Dex based Rogues as well.

[joshfishyu]

Cunning rogue = backstabbing rogue = killing machine

You should use any equipments that boost your backstabbing dmg and try to stun opponents by using poisons or talents as often as possible

In backstabbing mode, your attacks are less possible to miss, so low attack is really not a problem for cunning rogue.

[soteria]

I don't *need* party buffs to kill enemies; I can use dirty fighting to kill one enemy, riposte to kill another, and dw sweep + whirlwind to damage some more. If I get lucky with a paralysis rune or poison stun someone else will die. My last rogue could kill two enemies in the space of a dread howl. It is a fragile build, though I really don't mind playing a character that functions better in a group. Party synergy is interesting to me--soloing isn't.

[Meliorist13]

EccentrcSage said:

"Honestly... I don't know how I'll convince myself to try a non-rogue character.  Or to use Leliana. She always dies unless she gets constant babysitting, and her dual wield needs so much work. Zev on the other hand held his own pretty well from the moment I got him. I just spec Zev and my rogue a bit different, but both with assassin, and they are a force to be reckoned with. I highly recommend trying a dual assassin combination. Lots of strategic possibilities, but also a lot of flexibility that allows them to really regain control of the field should you be ambushed and flanked.

I am no expert, but while Leiliana can be a melee rogue, I think she is much more suited to be an archer or a hybrid. I put -hate gear on her set her tactics and let her go to town. For me she hardly ever draws aggro, and when she does she runs in circles until I can pull it off of her. Leiliana very seldomly dies on me, and if she does, it's usually because I neglected to do something I needed to do.

Modifié par Meliorist13, 19 février 2010 - 12:59 .

[Darkkyn46]

Timortis wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...

 I don't understand the "to-hit" myth.  I always go high cunning with enough dex to get the gear I want including items, and finish the game with a 98 or 99% hit ratio.  That's poor?

Unbuffed Cunning Rogue hit rate is atrocious. For me, a character that needs 3 others just to be able function at all is too dependent, to each his own.

How many misses do you count?

http://www.wegame.co.../cunning-rogue/

I don't play solo so I don't see anything near that miss rate.  However, seems to me it shouldn't be a cake walk to take down a higher level mob.  Is that your complaint?   That you can't simply slice through anything in front of you?  Or are you also one of the "no poltice" players too?  One heal pot and you could have taken out that general without any problem.  I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting to be able to do.  Let's see a video of you against a same level mob.  I would bet that you, in very godlike fashion, own him pretty badly.

Modifié par Darkkyn46, 19 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[Silensfurtim]

He's a solo player, DEX Rogue user. These people believe that going solo is the only way to go. They also believe that higher attack rates and higher defense rates are more important than anything else lol

[Darkkyn46]

If people want to play solo that's their choice. However solo character won't perform as well as a grouped in terms of how often you hit, or quickly a particular mob is taken down. Nor should they, by the way. It's not exactly a stretch to believe that one on one will be tougher than four on one. Working as intended, not a spec or class flaw.

[Stabbath123]

Timortis wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...

 I don't understand the "to-hit" myth.  I always go high cunning with enough dex to get the gear I want including items, and finish the game with a 98 or 99% hit ratio.  That's poor?

Unbuffed Cunning Rogue hit rate is atrocious. For me, a character that needs 3 others just to be able function at all is too dependent, to each his own.

How many misses do you count?

http://www.wegame.co.../cunning-rogue/

Sorry to go off topic, but I could really use that many hotbar slots. Anyone tell me how to get as many as the person in the vid has? Thanks.

I'm currently building a dex rogue. I'm only lvl 4, so too early to tell. I'm wanting tp compare it with a dw warrior, which is the best I've rolled so far.

[soteria]

Step 1: Expand the bar out to the right.

Step 2: Play on a monitor that supports a really high resolution.

[Grimmwor Runeforger]

so what's wrong with having a rogue that has both cunning and dex?

[SurrealSadi]

Well, since Dex is screwed on Consoles, a Cunning-based DW Rogue is the best path for those who like to kill things fast...

[Timortis]

Darkkyn46 wrote...
 I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting to be able to do.

This...

http://www.wegame.com/watch/dex-rogue/

Modifié par Timortis, 20 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[Graspiloot]

sorry, it might be a silly question, but what stat increases hit rating (just started my first rogue and its misses all the way)?

Modifié par Graspiloot, 21 février 2010 - 01:22 .

[mosspit]

As far as melee atk hit rate is concern, a point in str or dex will increase atk by 0.5. The game will deducts 10 from a char's dex and str score before calculating its atk.

[Graspiloot]

so how much dext would you need as a rogue archer or otherwise, to get a hit rate over 90%?

[mosspit]

/shrugs. Ranged atk hitrate for short and longbows depend on dex alone. Each dex point above 10 will add 1 atk. It is not set in stone on how much you shd put in dex to get a hitrate > 90%. Common advise will be to max it.

[Darkkyn46]

Timortis wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...
 I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting to be able to do.

This...

http://www.wegame.com/watch/dex-rogue/

So in that vid you fought 4 yellows and an orange solo, and got hit maybe 3 times?  My opinion?  That shouldn't happen.  It shouldn't be that easy, but if that's what you want I'm sure there is a mod out there you can employ, if you're not already.  If that's a "natural" fight and you haven't hacked anything to enhance yourself or increase mob miss rate or something, then shame on BioWare for making the game that easy.  I'm sure you'll call it skill though.  Enjoy.

[Random70]

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Timortis wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...
 I guess I just don't understand what you're expecting to be able to do.

This...

http://www.wegame.com/watch/dex-rogue/

So in that vid you fought 4 yellows and an orange solo, and got hit maybe 3 times?  My opinion?  That shouldn't happen.  It shouldn't be that easy, but if that's what you want I'm sure there is a mod out there you can employ, if you're not already.  If that's a "natural" fight and you haven't hacked anything to enhance yourself or increase mob miss rate or something, then shame on BioWare for making the game that easy.  I'm sure you'll call it skill though.  Enjoy.

Whether it should happen that way or not, that's the way BW designed it. Once your DEF is ~150 you're not going to be hit unless debuffed or by auto-hit attacks. Moreover, at this point your ATT wil be ~ 130 meaning you will be hitting every time, w/o buffs...  Which was the whole point of posting those two videos.

[Timortis]

Actually, my defense is closer to 180 in that video and the Hurlock General can hit 150 defense much more often.

There aren't 4 yellows, but 1 yellow and 3 whites, and then another yellow comes at the end after I've killed the others. White Ogres don't seem to ever use knockdown attacks or grabs, which makes them trivial if you have decent defense, which I would expect a melee character in light armor to have.

And I don't see why anyone should attack my skill, or lack of it, since this is an RPG. A big part of player skill in this kind of game is in picking the right talents and abilities and distributing attribute points. After that, during a fight, it's the skills of the character you built, and how you use them that determines the outcome. In this case, this is not a particularly tough fight, because of the way I built the character, which, if it makes someone go "OMG hax", must be a successful build. Other than that, I do my share by interrupting the Rams from the Ogres by timing my abilities correctly, I interupted 3 Rams here, which, had I let even one happen, would have potentially turned into chain knockdowns and killed me. There wasn't much else I could have, or needed to do. Regardless, the point was to show the alternative to the much loved god-like cunning Rogue.

Modifié par Timortis, 22 février 2010 - 07:38 .