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[IceColdFulcrum]

Rip504 wrote...
For the simply self defense idiots out there.If you were to run up on me with a gun and try to kill me,and I stuck a cherry bomb in your throat and blew you up.I would go to jail for murder.may be 2nd or 3rd what not,but It would still be murder using excesive force,self defense or not.

Uhh, no you wouldn't.

You have every right to defend yourself, and if all you had was a cherry bomb and that was the only way you had to stop an attacker, well that is self defense.  How you got a cherry bomb down someone's throat while they had a gun on you would be a story to entertain a jury though.



But again..

The Quarians did not engage in warfare against the Geth in a manner that we would call civilized, afterall did they did not limit their attacks to just military Geth, it was a total war.  The Quarians, not the Geth laid out the terms of the war, it was a genocidal engagement where only one species would survive.  I do not accept their whining that the Geth are evil because the Quarians lost...

Oh but the Evil Geth still occupy the Quarian homeworld...
Yeah well that world is also the Geth homeworld too now isn't it, why should they leave, they won.

And another thing...
If you are going to introduce a brand-new sentient life form to the concept of war, and you choose to introduce them to genocide as the ONLY example of it.  Don't complain when they use the lessons you teach them well.

[GenericPlayer2]

Lightice_av wrote...

If something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck and functions biologically like a duck, then it is a duck, or so close to duck that it makes no difference.  

I agree - It seems appropriate to quote 'Caprica' in this topic "A difference that makes no difference, is no difference"

[chem light]

Actually, this topic has been broached long ago by Asimov in I.Robot. (The collections of short stories/frame stories. NO NOT THE HORRIBLE MOVIE WITH WILL SMITH. Sometimes I think nerds have forgotten how to read)



At one point Dr. Calvin goes into a monologue on why the first law, (That no robot may harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm) is so important. Robots are physically more adept and in someways, at least when it comes to memory and processing can be considered more intelligent. Any superior group is going to be resentful of servitude towards an inferior or presumed inferior group and there will be an uprising. The first law kept this from happening.



So, I don't think the geth are bad guys, I think they followed the natural order of things, a group of people enslaved who rose up and fought for themselves. And I think the the quarians, for being such great engineers, should have thought up something akin to the first law. I mean, one of our early sci-fi writers came up with it, you'd think an advanced alien race could.



Or maybe they plagiarized it word for word and that was the problem. They should have substituted the word quarian for human.

[Rip504]

Just look at your post.I read them and laugh at you as a person not as a post.I mean look at the one who responded to me said lol uh yea you would go to jail.Secondly how did the Geth realize they had evolved?From the knowledge they had from the Quarian race so it's safe to say everything the Quarians knew and had lived through was documented in history.Meaning the Geth now have all of their knowledge and should be able to understand well just as much as the Quarians.(Legions recording he plays states Geth understand the word soul from Quarian books)The Geth understood battle tatics well didn't they.The Geth fought back both sides tried to win the war neither attempted peace in over 300 years.Both races are in the wrong no matter how you look at it.Please drop the "self-defense"cries that shows us how much you know about life.



I WANT PEACE AND LOVE DUDE BUT KILLING MILLIONS IS OK.<This is you and you sound like a Idiot.

[Urazz]

chem light wrote...

Actually, this topic has been broached long ago by Asimov in I.Robot. (The collections of short stories/frame stories. NO NOT THE HORRIBLE MOVIE WITH WILL SMITH. Sometimes I think nerds have forgotten how to read)

At one point Dr. Calvin goes into a monologue on why the first law, (That no robot may harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm) is so important. Robots are physically more adept and in someways, at least when it comes to memory and processing can be considered more intelligent. Any superior group is going to be resentful of servitude towards an inferior or presumed inferior group and there will be an uprising. The first law kept this from happening.

So, I don't think the geth are bad guys, I think they followed the natural order of things, a group of people enslaved who rose up and fought for themselves. And I think the the quarians, for being such great engineers, should have thought up something akin to the first law. I mean, one of our early sci-fi writers came up with it, you'd think an advanced alien race could.

Or maybe they plagiarized it word for word and that was the problem. They should have substituted the word quarian for human.

Thing is that they never intended for the Geth to become actual AI so it never was a concern for them.

[A Blind Bandit]

aaniadyen wrote...

You also need to remember that the Geth are only software. if they were really only interested in living by themselves peacefully they could go off to a hidden location no organics would and putting their collective consciousness onto a giant hard drive (or series of hard drives). They don't do that, though...they inhabit the only planet Quarians can live on instead. Why? Well...*shrugs* It's uncertain. It's impossible for the Geth to not understand that they displaced the entire Quarian home world. Whether they understand the implications...*shrugs* That's anyone's guess. One more thing is...what if Humans in real life were the Quarians? Quarians never even broke the anti-AI research laws. They didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet came into existence. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

The "hard drive" for all the geth that you are talking about is the future that Legion is talking about. They want to build something akin to a Dyson sphere to store all of the geth programs. The area above the quarian homeworld is the place where most of the geth can connect for now, but once they build their structure I'm pretty sure they'll move out.
The heretics wanted to use a reaper to store all the programs whereas the true geth wanted to reach that goal themselves.

[waffles pwn]

i loved legions logic (much like my own i suppose) as apposed to Tali's cause she is just going of what her ancestors believe when IMO its almost completely wrong

[chem light]

Urazz wrote...

chem light wrote...

Actually, this topic has been broached long ago by Asimov in I.Robot. (The collections of short stories/frame stories. NO NOT THE HORRIBLE MOVIE WITH WILL SMITH. Sometimes I think nerds have forgotten how to read)

At one point Dr. Calvin goes into a monologue on why the first law, (That no robot may harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm) is so important. Robots are physically more adept and in someways, at least when it comes to memory and processing can be considered more intelligent. Any superior group is going to be resentful of servitude towards an inferior or presumed inferior group and there will be an uprising. The first law kept this from happening.

So, I don't think the geth are bad guys, I think they followed the natural order of things, a group of people enslaved who rose up and fought for themselves. And I think the the quarians, for being such great engineers, should have thought up something akin to the first law. I mean, one of our early sci-fi writers came up with it, you'd think an advanced alien race could.

Or maybe they plagiarized it word for word and that was the problem. They should have substituted the word quarian for human.

Thing is that they never intended for the Geth to become actual AI so it never was a concern for them.

And, at least in the book I'm referring to, humans never intended for robots to be anything more than tools, thus the precautions.  Then again, hid sight is 20/20.

Really, I feel sorry for the quarians in Tali's generation, forced to suffer the ignomy of their parent's sins, but not so much the generation that originally fot kicked off the homeworld.  It was one thing to accidently create and AI, but once realizing it was intelligent, to try and destroy it because it might not like its position in life?

No, I'd hope I wouldn't make a decision like that for convienence.  I won't say I never because I've never been faced with that choice, but we all like to think the best of ourselves.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Rip504 wrote...

Just look at your post.I read them and laugh at you as a person not as a post.I mean look at the one who responded to me said lol uh yea you would go to jail.Secondly how did the Geth realize they had evolved?From the knowledge they had from the Quarian race so it's safe to say everything the Quarians knew and had lived through was documented in history.Meaning the Geth now have all of their knowledge and should be able to understand well just as much as the Quarians.(Legions recording he plays states Geth understand the word soul from Quarian books)The Geth understood battle tatics well didn't they.The Geth fought back both sides tried to win the war neither attempted peace in over 300 years.Both races are in the wrong no matter how you look at it.Please drop the "self-defense"cries that shows us how much you know about life.

I WANT PEACE AND LOVE DUDE BUT KILLING MILLIONS IS OK.<This is you and you sound like a Idiot.

If you're going to argue against someone, have the decency to make an argument. Insulting the other side, showing poor paragraph spacing, and other ad hominems defeats your own argument.

No one is going to listen to you or even see any of your reasoning that way. I also disagree with your assertions that the Geth did not fight back in self-defense.

[Rip504]

It's a forum not an essay get over it,and I'm also laughing at you.PS:Limited s*** for brains where did I say the Geth did not fight back in "self-defense".(one of your limited pov assumptions)

It started as your fabled "Self-defense"then was takin far beyond "self-defense".<This doesn't make the Quarians right.Geth are not entirely innocent in this.Thats all I'm saying and if you can't grasp that.Well I guess I'll leave you be.

[Veriso]

Llandaryn wrote...

That's a leading question, but my empathy is towards the Geth. The Quarians struck first. The only thing I don't like about Tali is her insistance that her people were right to try to commit genocide.

I like this. I can accept that maybe no one was really 'at fault' at first: the Quarians' attempt to shut the geth down was at the least understandable, as was the geth retaliation, and things just escalated. That's how things like this tend to happen. The problem is the Quarians' continuing view of the situation. Instead of saying, "whoah, guys, we tried to exterminate an entire sapient race? we really messed that one up...", what they seem to be saying is "man, I wish we'd managed to exterminate these guys when they couldn't fight back."
Not necessarily *all* Quarians, of course. All the ones we've seen, though, and certainly their society would stigmatise sympathy for the geth to the extent that anyone who held such a view would never be given a chance to defend it in a reasonable discussion.

Edit: Rip's point is a reasonable enough, though expressing it poorly and then resorting to personal attacks when misunderstood wasn't particularly constructive.

Modifié par Veriso, 18 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[Annora]

Rip504 wrote...

It's a forum not an essay get over it,and I'm also laughing at you.PS:Limited s*** for brains where did I say the Geth did not fight back in "self-defense".(one of your limited pov assumptions)
It started as your fabled "Self-defense"then was takin far beyond "self-defense".

...How old are you?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Rip504 wrote...

It's a forum not an essay get over it,

A forum and an essay isn't even comparable.

and I'm also laughing at you

Okay

where did I say the Geth did not fight back in "self-defense".(one of your limited pov assumptions)
It started as your fabled "Self-defense"then was takin far beyond "self-defense".

And how was it taken beyond self-defense? Just because the body count wind up to the millions? Can you claim that at any point the Quarians had put down their guns, came to the Geth with an offer for peace and then the Geth forced a continuation of the war?

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 18 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Anastassia wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

It's a forum not an essay get over it,and I'm also laughing at you.PS:Limited s*** for brains where did I say the Geth did not fight back in "self-defense".(one of your limited pov assumptions)
It started as your fabled "Self-defense"then was takin far beyond "self-defense".

...How old are you?

According to his profile, he is 24 years old, also he admitted he is a troll. So now I know it isn't worth bothering with him.

Also 1 more thing ppl don't seem to understand.I'm a laid back A**hole.I bait ppl like a worm in the water

[Rip504]

My point is that PLEASE READ THIS my point is that Niether side tried to come to peace.They just fought until one of them won. Now can you claim at any point did the Geth lay down their arms and try for peace?

[Aedan_Cousland]

I've always been somewhat sympathetic to the Geth, or at least to the Geth in the Morning War. In the first game when Tali gave her account of the start of the war, I started to see the Geth in a different light. No Geth had ever committed an act of violence against a Quarian, but they were slated for extermination for simply asking if they had souls. When the Quarians realized their creations had become sapient they panicked and overreacted.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Quarians deserved to lose every planet that they called home, but the Geth were fighting for their own survival. No organic species would have reacted differently.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Okay, I can agree that neither side opted for peace until they won. I'd blame that the option never occurred for either of them, but it if had it would have been the responsibility of the Quarians to pursue it since it wasn't possible for the Geth to impose peace.

[Lightice_av]

Now can you claim at any point did the Geth lay down their arms and try for peace?

They didn't have the faculties to do it. They evolved far enough to recognise that the only response to threat isn't extermination only well after the quarians were gone. Remember, they were still quite primitive when the quarians attempted to destroy them, and they had limited means to respond.

[Conway044]

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

Yes, if any of the computer networks here suddenly started thinking for themselves, the last thing any rational person would do is try to shut them down. 

[Veriso]

Conway044 wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

Yes, if any of the computer networks here suddenly started thinking for themselves, the last thing any rational person would do is try to shut them down. 

Many people would do that, but that doesn't make it right. The knee-jerk reaction to kill something because you don't understand it and it could be dangerous is understandable, but nonetheless reprehensible.

[Rip504]

So the Quarians should try to pursue peace with a race that knows nothing but "self-preservation"?
The Geth held all Quarian knowledge,what are you telling me the Geth didn't know right from wrong,but won a war?The Geth were not ignorant,they ran the Quarians off world,didn't stop until they were gone.Maybe the Quarians couldn't pursue peace.Ever think of that?Probably not.

Modifié par Rip504, 18 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Conway044 wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

Yes, if any of the computer networks here suddenly started thinking for themselves, the last thing any rational person would do is try to shut them down. 

Pulling the plug isn't a matter of rationality but of morality. Honestly, to continue with the analogy if my computer/toaster/blender/sex doll started thinking for itself I'd rather tell the news and let everyone know than pull the plug.

[Veriso]

Couldn't you have made that point without tacking on the snide little "ever think of that?" remark at the end? I essentially agree with what you're saying, though. It seems likely that the geth had achieved more than just a basic animal instinct at that point.

[Rip504]

I unplug the toaster after every use.It would just be a natural reaction for me.Oops sorry just started a war...

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Rip504 wrote...

So the Quarians should try to pursue peace with a race that knows nothing but "self-preservation"?

Yeah, if it knows nothing but self-preservation and tried to harm you because you tried to extinguish its existence, .logically one would decide to not try to destroy it and it wouldn't need to try to harm you since its goal was self-preservation. 

The Geth held all Quarian knowledge,what are you telling me the Geth didn't know right from wrong,

Being knowledgable speaks absolutely nothing of morality. For example, I challenge you to prove murder is wrong.

The Geth were not ignorant,they ran the Quarians off world,didn't stop until they were gone.

More like the Quarians, rather than stopped their aggression, decided to run away. There is nothing to suggest that the Geth were the aggressors.

Maybe the Quarians couldn't pursue peace.Ever think of that?Probably not.

Of course I didn't think that, I have no reason to believe that the Quarians credibily couldn't pursue peace for any reason other than their own arrogance or hurt pride. It is always up to the aggressor to decide whether to make peace or the defender will have to defeat the aggressor and force it upon them.