549 réponses à ce sujet

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Rip504 wrote...

Prove anything you have said period,lol

'kay, why don't you tell me that claims I have made that were unsupported.

Don't ask him to do something you are not willing to do yourself.

good thing I haven't done that so far

Maybe you don't understand but we have been having this problem all night.Your lack of grasping concepts that is.

Because I don't agree with you, clearly I can't grasp concepts.

Here's an easy one for you.Why are the Geth right?

Explain further, what exactly are you asking what the Geth are right for doing? If we're arguing morality, that's for philosophers and I refuse to argue my moral compass against yours. There can't be any productive argument if both sides don't agree on certain terms and definitions or else the argument turns into one of semantics.

[Reptilian Rob]

Well, the Quarians royally screwed them over for sure, so if it came to siding with one side in ME3 I would choose the Geth. They were created to be slaves, and when the developed sentience they were still treated as such, as a means of cheap labor. They had no choice in the matter, and they did what they had to for freedom.

[CmdrFenix83]

Rip504 wrote...

Prove anything you have said period,lol that would be nice.Don't ask him to do something you are not willing to do yourself.Maybe you don't understand but we have been having this problem all night.Your lack of grasping concepts that is.

Here's an easy one for you.Why are the Geth right?

His answer is simple, he likes Legion and takes everything 'they' say as the undeniable truth.  Don't get me wrong, I grew to like Legion... after my first playthrough. 

However, the quarian population on the Migrant Fleet is 17million.  This is stated in-game on the description of the fleet when you're in orbit around it.  It is completely nonsense to believe that their entire species, spanning across several worlds and colonies, was anything less than in the billions before the 'Morning War'.  There had to be billions slaughtered, of all ages and genders, military or not. 

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

[Rip504]

Modifié par Rip504, 18 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
His answer is simple, he likes Legion and takes everything 'they' say as the undeniable truth.

We can avoid ad hominems if you want a civil discussion. 

However, the quarian population on the Migrant Fleet is 17million.  This is stated in-game on the description of the fleet when you're in orbit around it.  It is completely nonsense to believe that their entire species, spanning across several worlds and colonies, was anything less than in the billions before the 'Morning War'.  There had to be billions slaughtered, of all ages and genders, military or not. 

Once again, I don't understand the population argument. Why is it that the vast majority of the Quarians couldn't have been fighting in the war? Either to develop weapons, research ways to defeat the Geth, as command, or as soldiers on the frontline? The number of deaths doesn't prove the status of the dead.

[Rip504]

Rip504 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Prove anything you have said period,lol

'kay, why don't you tell me that claims I have made that were unsupported. FALSE everything you have said.

Don't ask him to do something you are not willing to do yourself.

good thing I haven't done that so far FALSE

Maybe you don't understand but we have been having this problem all night.Your lack of grasping concepts that is.

Because I don't agree with you, clearly I can't grasp concepts.FALSE Won't don't we agree on?
+I'm looking at it from both pov,you stuck on the Geth.

Here's an easy one for you.Why are the Geth right?

Explain further, what exactly are you asking what the Geth are right for doing? If we're arguing morality, that's for philosophers and I refuse to argue my moral compass against yours. There can't be any productive argument if both sides don't agree on certain terms and definitions or else the argument turns into one of semantics.

 
The topic of this thread.uh what huh wow way to stumble on your own words.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Rip504 wrote...
The topic of this thread.uh what huh wow way to stumble on your own words.

I'm not stumbling, I asked a valid question of what exactly is "being right", I'm only poking in when it comes to either factual errors or possible alternatives to certain questions about the Geth and their actions.

However, I haven't bothered approaching the question of "right" vs. "wrong" since the criteria for defending either hasn't been established even once.

[CmdrFenix83]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

Even if the majority were soldiers(which is quite an assumption on your part, seeing as these aren't Krogans), you cannot feasibly believe upwards of 99% of their population was.  They went from billions of people down to 17million.  Their child population alone out of those billions had to be *far* more than a mere 17million.  Killing a defenseless child is not self defense, no matter how much you seem to like claiming it.

[mintek]

During the war, Geth did radical stuff, so did the Quarians. If the Quarians didnt attack first, perhaps they wouldnt have been exiled from their planet? Radical measure is always taken by both sides when its a total war. You experiment on your enemy, you interogate them. It cannot be hetical, because a war is not. The problem here is that after the events of mass effect 2. The totality of the remaining geth are suposely willing to have peace without conflicts. The Quarians are still torn appart into a group that want wars and one that dont want it.



Another difference is that none of the current Quarians alive is to blame for attacking the geth 300 years ago and i belive the geth are offering peace for that very reason. The problem here is that Quarians do not help their cause in front of the geth when they continue their agression and experimentation on them. Basicly Quarians hold a grudes over the centuries like human would, most organic i guess, exemple: France vs England for hundreads of years. Later when all that animosity stopped they formed the group that was called allies in europe.



Same should go for the Quarian ppl, they need to lighten up and think about it, they arent the same quarian that attacked the geth 300 years ago. There is no point in attacking their ancestor enemy if they are waving a white flag. The geth can inhabit any planet they wish, under a peace flag and perhaps even apologies and recognition, they could get back their homeworld. Technicaly its Geth homeworld as well. But them being a machine and using logic they most likely know the Quarian needs it more then they ever will.



Currently any sane person can only support legion and the ''geth'' point of view. The quarians point of view is divided and warped around, they rather attack and all die then even try peace. Who ever offers peace is the side anyone unbiased will go with.

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Prove anything you have said period,lol that would be nice.Don't ask him to do something you are not willing to do yourself.Maybe you don't understand but we have been having this problem all night.Your lack of grasping concepts that is.

Here's an easy one for you.Why are the Geth right?

His answer is simple, he likes Legion and takes everything 'they' say as the undeniable truth.  Don't get me wrong, I grew to like Legion... after my first playthrough. 

However, the quarian population on the Migrant Fleet is 17million.  This is stated in-game on the description of the fleet when you're in orbit around it.  It is completely nonsense to believe that their entire species, spanning across several worlds and colonies, was anything less than in the billions before the 'Morning War'.  There had to be billions slaughtered, of all ages and genders, military or not. 

not the  case for me in mass effect 1 even i sided with the geth if i could when tali tries to justify killing a sapient being i wanted to put her in the airlock and say your sapient how can i trust you to work on this crew ejected her into space and let her die like the geth the geth were killed for no reason its that simple

on the topic of non combatants how many quarians may have died AFTER the war ever think of that ships fail and population needs to be managed so the geth may have killed combatants only and population declined AFTER the war

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

Even if the majority were soldiers(which is quite an assumption on your part, seeing as these aren't Krogans), you cannot feasibly believe upwards of 99% of their population was.  They went from billions of people down to 17million.  Their child population alone out of those billions had to be *far* more than a mere 17million.  Killing a defenseless child is not self defense, no matter how much you seem to like claiming it.

Sorry, but I only see supposition built upon supposition. You could be right, but I'm not convinced it is as obvious or a sure-bet as you insist it is.

I could imagine such a large number of the population being involved in the war, especially if they view it as a war of survival.

[Computron2000]

CmdrFenix83 and Mikazukinoyaiba2 please don't feed the troll.

[CmdrFenix83]

Computron2000 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 and Mikazukinoyaiba2 please don't feed the troll.

We're debating with each other... unless Mika's the troll, I've done no feeding.

[77boy84]

Lets go over what happened with the Quarians vs The Geth



The Quarians built the Geth to be their slaves. When the Geth started showing sentience, the quarians freaked out and tried to wipe them all out. Then, after the Geth defeated the quarians away (out of self defence for their entire population), the quarians spent the rest of their lives floating in space, and blaming the geth for all their problems.



You can argue "you can't kill a machine!" but once something becomes self aware, it becomes no different than you or I. The quarians tried to completely wipe out an entire race, and then when it backfired on them, instead of showing remorse, or trying to fix their problems, they sat on their space ships and just blamed the geth for all their problems.



And even years after, they still mostly treat the geth like dirt. Look at the reactions to Legion on Tali's loyalty quest. Look at the ship that was dedicated just to making the geth slaves again. Hell, look at how Tali treats Legion in just about every scene they're together.



Maybe you could argue that the Geth didn't need to be so hard on the quarians or whatever, but it's pretty justifiable when they're fighting for their entire race's continued existence. I really can't sympathize with a group that thinks genocide is right. Especially when after it blows up in their face, they're still for enslaving the geth or outright wiping them out.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Computron2000 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 and Mikazukinoyaiba2 please don't feed the troll.

Fine fine, I'll ignore Rip054. But answering trolls seriously without getting upset is so fun.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 and Mikazukinoyaiba2 please don't feed the troll.

We're debating with each other... unless Mika's the troll, I've done no feeding.

He meant RIP054 not you, Rip is self-admitted troll.

[Computron2000]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
We're debating with each other... unless Mika's the troll, I've done no feeding.

I mean rip504. Someone already outed him as a troll in the earlier posts.

[mintek]

Technicaly since the Quarian wanted a total destruction of the geth, if the geth had non-combatants they would all have been destroyed? You guys are asking machines that just achieved consience and getting attacked right away to defend themself without attacking non-combatants. Something that probably had absolutly no meaning to them, all of their imobile plateform and defenseless drone could be accounted as ''non-combatants'' Does it stop ppl from destroying them?

[Rip504]

I'm a troll because I disagree or ask you to prove something you say?yea real mature.I'm still laughing at you as people.



Legion does not speak for all Geth.Even if you bring Legion on Tali's side quest and talk to the admiral supporting peace,Legion states he don't know if it would work,and gave the hint that the Geth don't really trust the Quarians(IMO).So where in ME universe have the Geth waived the white flag?no where.You spoke to Legion and assume to know the Geth's view lol.Legion is the group of Geth sent to investigate Shepard.During Legions side quest he states 600+ favor 600+against or something close to this.I assume there are more then 1200 Geth with diff pov.Heritics are Geth with a diff pov. Don't assume to understand the Geth by just Legion,it would be like if you judge the Quarians on Tali in ME1 and find out what they truly are in ME2.

[CmdrFenix83]

77boy84 wrote...

I really can't sympathize with a group that thinks genocide is right.

So you don't sympathize with the Geth either then?  Considering they practically did just that to the Quarians.  And again, what the Quarians did is only attempted genocide in hindsight.  A few Geth had begun asking about the nature of their existence.  They believed that if they acted quickly, they could shut most of them down before they could develop to that point.  They were wrong on how fast the Geth had developed, and they paid for it, by the billions.  The Quarian people more than paid for the mistakes of their ancestors.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

No, you're a troll because you said so yourself in your own profile:

I'm a laid back A**hole.I bait ppl like a worm in the water,

Even if you're not trolling currently, what reason would anyone have to believe you? You shouldn't be surprised if people dismiss your hostile and condescending posts as nothing more than baiting. With that said, to avoid further derailment I will avoid replying to your posts.



gotta go to bed anyways

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

I really can't sympathize with a group that thinks genocide is right.

So you don't sympathize with the Geth either then?  Considering they practically did just that to the Quarians.  And again, what the Quarians did is only attempted genocide in hindsight.  A few Geth had begun asking about the nature of their existence.  They believed that if they acted quickly, they could shut most of them down before they could develop to that point.  They were wrong on how fast the Geth had developed, and they paid for it, by the billions.  The Quarian people more than paid for the mistakes of their ancestors.

it never said the geth killed non combatants actualy it would make more sence for a machine not to whats the point of wasting ammo

1 pre war population was never cnfirmed planets could have lightly populated
2 it has never said how many quarians died AFTER the war

[CmdrFenix83]

Rip504 wrote...

I'm a troll because I disagree or ask you to prove something you say?yea real mature.I'm still laughing at you as people.

Legion does not speak for all Geth.Even if you bring Legion on Tali's side quest and talk to the admiral supporting peace,Legion states he don't know if it would work,and gave the hint that the Geth don't really trust the Quarians(IMO).So where in ME universe have the Geth waived the white flag?no where.You spoke to Legion and assume to know the Geth's view lol.Legion is the group of Geth sent to investigate Shepard.During Legions side quest he states 600+ favor 600+against or something close to this.I assume there are more then 1200 Geth with diff pov.Heritics are Geth with a diff pov. Don't assume to understand the Geth by just Legion,it would be like if you judge the Quarians on Tali in ME1 and find out what they truly are in ME2.

They seem to enjoy judging the Quarians all on Admiral Morrigan and Admiral Zorah.  Both of which were wrong.  Admiral Qwib Qwib has the right idea, by far.  Personally, I sided with Tali in the Tali/Legion dispute my first two playthroughs, but went with the charm option everytime afterward once I saw how that one played out.

[Rip504]

I discuss not only the Geth side like him but both sides.He get angry rants rave backs nothing he says up.And you call me a troll you are truly ignorant,by the way the person with limited vision who read my profile and misunderstood it,call me out as being a troll.So maybe you should read before typing.