549 réponses à ce sujet

[Deztyn]

Uh, the population argument ignores the fact that 17 million is the Quarians current population. We don't know how many survived the initial war, we just know how many there are now. The Quarians impose a one child per couple limit because of limited resources. That would reduce the population by half every generation. One Billion would only have 500 million children, who would only have 250 million children, who would have 125 million children, 75 million, 37.5 million, 18.75 million in only seven generations.

[sunovafm]

Deztyn wrote...

Uh, the population argument ignores the fact that 17 million is the Quarians current population. We don't know how many survived the initial war, we just know how many there are now. The Quarians impose a one child per couple limit because of limited resources. That would reduce the population by half every generation. One Billion would only have 500 million children, who would only have 250 million children, who would have 125 million children, 75 million, 37.5 million, 18.75 million in only seven generations.

and thats not counting individuals who do not want kids and i have been making this argument they ingnore it :\\

[CmdrFenix83]

sunovafm wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

I really can't sympathize with a group that thinks genocide is right.

So you don't sympathize with the Geth either then?  Considering they practically did just that to the Quarians.  And again, what the Quarians did is only attempted genocide in hindsight.  A few Geth had begun asking about the nature of their existence.  They believed that if they acted quickly, they could shut most of them down before they could develop to that point.  They were wrong on how fast the Geth had developed, and they paid for it, by the billions.  The Quarian people more than paid for the mistakes of their ancestors.

it never said the geth killed non combatants actualy it would make more sence for a machine not to whats the point of wasting ammo

1 pre war population was never cnfirmed planets could have lightly populated
2 it has never said how many quarians died AFTER the war

Actually it would make more logical sense to kill them.  Creator threat is the Creator threat afterall.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

Panicked, the quarian government ordered an immediate shutdown of all
geth, hoping to strike the first blow, but they had underestimated the
power of the neural network and how intelligent the geth had become.
Their servants defended themselves, resulting in a war that cost
billions of quarian lives and drove them from their homeworld. After
being refused aid from the Citadel Council, the quarians fled in the
Migrant Fleet while the geth took over their systems. Soon after, the
Council stripped the quarians of their embassy, effectively cutting the
quarians out of Citadel politics as a punishment for their actions.
Ever since, the quarians have devoted all their skills and resources to
preserving their species aboard the Migrant Fleet.

Bolded the relevant portion.  Billions down to 17million.  There's no way that innocent people weren't involved in that, nor is there any way that at least 10-20% of those losses weren't defenseless children.

Also, I'm aware that it is simply a wiki, but if you wish to discredit it, feel free to pull up the quarian codex entries and have a look.

[WrathWinters]

I've always seemed to get the feel that the Quarians didn't start slaughtering Geth, or even thinking of them alive. They knew it would be wrong and extremely complicated to bring an sentient species to life from nothing, and once they got the idea that that was what was happening they just started turning them off. They didn't seem to know the Geth were alive, so to them it was no more dangerous than turning off a vacuum(a very complicated vacuum). By the time they knew the extent of the Geth's consciousness, they had already begun turning off Geth to prevent consciousness from arising, and the Geth began to attack. The Quarians then bailed.



The Geth, on the other hand, decided they wanted souls and were all "lol souls?" when they got bum rushed by the Quarians. The Geth, like anyone else who's ever been mugged but didn't freeze from fear, said "Aww hell naw" and fought back, coincidentally winning and running the Quarians off their planet.



Neither side is right, neither side is wrong. In the immortal words of Cool Hand Luke, "What we got here is a failure to communicate." If the Quarians knew what was up, I have no doubt they would have stopped. Likewise, if the Geth weren't so infantile at their time of revolution, I'm sure they'd have found a better way to communicate "Hey we're alive stop killing us bro"



neither side is wrong, which adds to the drama of ME2

[Kileyan]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

DOn't be silly it was war, and the early Geth likely didn't even know the difference. They killed everything, because that was their reaction. That is what happens in war. Are you arguing just to infuriate people or seriously thinking that the Geth was so morally superior from their birth that they only killed military targets?

They killed whatever moved, and kept killing, they were children with space guns for a while.

I can only guess you are purposely trolling and you like the Geth a lot, but in the end they killed lots of people and in their eyes they cared little whether the enemy carried a gun or was a farmer that fed the guy carrying the gun.

They are logical machines, and I wouldn't fault them for seeing the feeder of the soldier as much an enemy as the soldier. Your insistance that they would never have killed civiliians is far fetched and likely not genuine.

Perhaps that is why trusting them is so hard, they don't have biological origins. In war they have no empathy, they might target hospitals or daycare centers, they have no feeling for being a parent or for their offspring, being fair or worrying about time. It is logical to them to think longterm, kill the offspring and less to fight 40 years from now. Why beat your enemy, kill their children and the defenseless and wait them out.

Are they evil......nahh, just machines.

Modifié par Kileyan, 18 février 2010 - 05:11 .

[CmdrFenix83]

WrathWinters wrote...

I've always seemed to get the feel that the Quarians didn't start slaughtering Geth, or even thinking of them alive. They knew it would be wrong and extremely complicated to bring an sentient species to life from nothing, and once they got the idea that that was what was happening they just started turning them off. They didn't seem to know the Geth were alive, so to them it was no more dangerous than turning off a vacuum(a very complicated vacuum). By the time they knew the extent of the Geth's consciousness, they had already begun turning off Geth to prevent consciousness from arising, and the Geth began to attack. The Quarians then bailed.

The Geth, on the other hand, decided they wanted souls and were all "lol souls?" when they got bum rushed by the Quarians. The Geth, like anyone else who's ever been mugged but didn't freeze from fear, said "Aww hell naw" and fought back, coincidentally winning and running the Quarians off their planet.

Neither side is right, neither side is wrong. In the immortal words of Cool Hand Luke, "What we got here is a failure to communicate." If the Quarians knew what was up, I have no doubt they would have stopped. Likewise, if the Geth weren't so infantile at their time of revolution, I'm sure they'd have found a better way to communicate "Hey we're alive stop killing us bro"

neither side is wrong, which adds to the drama of ME2

This has been exactly my point for a while now, but since the argument against my posts are completely 'Geth were in the right!' I'm stuck defending the Quarian point of view. 

[Vb Dude]

Ok this is a tricky one.
Both the Geth and the Quarians are right and wrong.
This is because of how the war between them escalated. I don't want to explain how the war happened  because I'm too lazy but if you have played the game, you know how the war went.

But I think the problem now is the differences between the two races. They need to co-exist peacefully but this is tricky because neither side trusts the other and neither want to give it a chance.
Legion revealed a lot about how there were two sides to the Geth. The evil Geth were the Heretics who followed Saren and those are the ones that the Council and the Alliance think are the bad ones.
The normal Geth that Legion is part of is the side that the Quarians are fighting, even though these Geth are the "good" side who can co-exist peacefully with the rest of the galaxy, the council still do not see the difference between both sides of the Geth.
The odd thing about the Quarians is that they are truely against the "Normal" Geth but they still categorise the "Heretics" with them.

So essentially this form this weird circle between the sides:
The  "->" "means in conflict with" or "against".

Quarians -> "Normal" Geth -> "Heretics" -> Council/Other races + "Normal Geth"
Council/Other Races -> Both Sides of the Geth

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Kileyan wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

DOn't be silly it was war, and the early Geth likely didn't even know the difference. They killed everything, because that was their reaction. That is what happens in war. Are you arguing just to infuriate people or seriously thinking that the Geth was so morally superior from their birth that they only killed military targets?

They killed whatever moved, and kept killing, they were children with space guns for a while.

I can only guess you are purposely trolling and you like the Geth a lot, but in the end they killed lots of people and in their eyes they cared little whether the enemy carried a gun or was a farmer that fed the guy carrying the gun.

They are logical machines, and I wouldn't fault them for seeing the feeder of the soldier as much an enemy as the soldier. You insistance that they would never have killed civiliians is far fetched and likely no genuine.

Perhaps that is why trusting them is so hard, they don't have biological origins. In war they have no empathy, they might target hospitals or daycare centers, they have no feeling for being a parent or for their offspring. It is logical to them to think longterm, kill the offspring and less to fight 40 years from now.

No, I'm not trolling.

Yes I believe the Geth didn't go around killing babies, it would be odd for something that fought for survival to kill something that was obviously not a threat. If the Geth were genocidal, I question why they let the Quarians leave.

You don't have to agree with me, but don't insult me.

[The Lord of Space]

sunovafm wrote...

and thats not counting individuals who do not want kids and i have been making this argument they ingnore it :\\\\

haha exactly

just keep ignoring the 300 years of decaying ships and extremely strict population control... all of those people clearly died in the war because there's a codex entry that says so

can you guys post a screenshot of that codex entry for me? I don't think I have it in my game

[The Lord of Space]

WrathWinters wrote...
 If the Quarians knew what was up, I have no doubt they would have stopped. Likewise, if the Geth weren't so infantile at their time of revolution, I'm sure they'd have found a better way to communicate "Hey we're alive stop killing us bro"

Wait, I'm sorry, but do you honestly believe the Quarians would have stopped? They started the war because the Geth became AI. If the Geth sat there and pleaded to be left alive they'd all be repurposed space bumpers right now.

[77boy84]

The Lord of Space wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

and thats not counting individuals who do not want kids and i have been making this argument they ingnore it :\\\\\\\\

haha exactly

just keep ignoring the 300 years of decaying ships and extremely strict population control... all of those people clearly died in the war because there's a codex entry that says so

can you guys post a screenshot of that codex entry for me? I don't think I have it in my game

The codex entry says that billions of quarians died in the war, but does not say that the population dropped down to 17 million.

[aaniadyen]

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...



The Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

aaniadyen wrote...

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...

The Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

And that was just as horrible and inaccurate of an argument back then than it is now

[aaniadyen]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...

The Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

And that was just as horrible and inaccurate of an argument back then than it is now

How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

aaniadyen wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...

The Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

And that was just as horrible and inaccurate of an argument back then than it is now

How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

If we have intelligent machines that work for us I would like to know where I can get one, I'm tired of having to take out the trash. Also what is this worldwide network that our robot servants currently function under?

Man I really need to get out if I didn't know about robots being real or even part of a network yet.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 18 février 2010 - 05:28 .

[CmdrFenix83]

aaniadyen wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...

The Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

And that was just as horrible and inaccurate of an argument back then than it is now

How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

Well, to be fair, it isn't.  The Geth didn't view their creators as threats immediately.  However, as a whole, organics fear AI.  That's why the Council had rules against AI research to begin with even before the whole Quarian/Geth thing.  It's why Hollywood constantly gives us stories about self-aware AI determining that killing people is what it should do.  The Quarians just acted in a manner that almost every organic race would, including humanity.

[The Lord of Space]

aaniadyen wrote...
How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

Because there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Geth would have attacked their creators, they certainly had AI for at least a while before they were attacked by the Quarians so that proves Geth != Skynet. Skynet attacked the instant it gained sentience.

[Lord Atlia]

I would say that the geth were right in their actions for the most part. In war there are heroes and monsters on both sides of the theater.

[Kileyan]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

DOn't be silly it was war, and the early Geth likely didn't even know the difference. They killed everything, because that was their reaction. That is what happens in war. Are you arguing just to infuriate people or seriously thinking that the Geth was so morally superior from their birth that they only killed military targets?

They killed whatever moved, and kept killing, they were children with space guns for a while.

I can only guess you are purposely trolling and you like the Geth a lot, but in the end they killed lots of people and in their eyes they cared little whether the enemy carried a gun or was a farmer that fed the guy carrying the gun.

They are logical machines, and I wouldn't fault them for seeing the feeder of the soldier as much an enemy as the soldier. You insistance that they would never have killed civiliians is far fetched and likely no genuine.

Perhaps that is why trusting them is so hard, they don't have biological origins. In war they have no empathy, they might target hospitals or daycare centers, they have no feeling for being a parent or for their offspring. It is logical to them to think longterm, kill the offspring and less to fight 40 years from now.

No, I'm not trolling.

Yes I believe the Geth didn't go around killing babies, it would be odd for something that fought for survival to kill something that was obviously not a threat. If the Geth were genocidal, I question why they let the Quarians leave.

You don't have to agree with me, but don't insult me.

I give, I don't see why you keep insisting they would never kill something not a theat to them. What is a threat, a farmer feeds the soldier, a child will fight them 15 years from now. THey aren't organic beings, they don't see a child as cute little bugger that needs nurturing. They see it as nothing more than a weapon ready to wake up and fight them in 10-15 years. They are machines, a daycare center to them is nothing more than a weapon manufacturing plant that will produce possible soldiers in 15 years.

What I am getting at is that is why people find it hard to trust them. They don't think like people and never will. THey will be allies one minute, and if the truce is broken, they'll kill children or wipe out every hospital because it makes logical sense, not because they are ultimate evil, but because they are mathmatical.

Geth aren't friends, they are some scary sum****es that we hope don't turn on us.

I didn't insult you, but from your evenings posts you did come across as either a troll or a guy roleplaying the geth advocate:)

Modifié par Kileyan, 18 février 2010 - 05:34 .

[aaniadyen]

double post ><

Modifié par aaniadyen, 18 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[aaniadyen]

The Lord of Space wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...
How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

Because there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Geth would have attacked their creators, they certainly had AI for at least a while before they were attacked by the Quarians so that proves Geth != Skynet. Skynet attacked the instant it gained sentience.

Well, yeah. What I'm saying is we shouldn't really judge them too harshly considering humans would respond in the exact same way.

[FredegarKadere]

Something people should think about..

The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.

So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.

Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

[CmdrFenix83]

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

It stated that billions of Quarians died in the war.  Taken exactly as it was stated, that would mean the Geth themelves killed billions, directly or indirectly.  It didn't say that they died from other means, more may have died due to that, however the billions mentioned died as a direct result of the war.

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

It stated that billions of Quarians died in the war.  Taken exactly as it was stated, that would mean the Geth themelves killed billions, directly or indirectly.  It didn't say that they died from other means, more may have died due to that, however the billions mentioned died as a direct result of the war.

for all we know more geth died and they just recoverd beter (as machines would not having such a long peroiod taken to make more of themselfs) numbers mean nothing with out the full set of them

[Lmaoboat]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

It stated that billions of Quarians died in the war.  Taken exactly as it was stated, that would mean the Geth themelves killed billions, directly or indirectly.  It didn't say that they died from other means, more may have died due to that, however the billions mentioned died as a direct result of the war.

If they died due to famine and other effects of the loss of industry, then the Geth are guilty of using indirectly using a strategy used by almost every reace and nation.