549 réponses à ce sujet

[FredegarKadere]

Exactly.. Your entire working class stops working due to a war so this is indirectly killing people because they are no longer doing the things that keeps infrastructure and society going. If there is no one to harvest the fields, then soon enough people are going to begin dying from malnutrition.

You have a Geth shuttle pilot who receives word that his creators are going to deactivate him. Before this can happen he downloads his consciousness(?) to his fellow Geth Air Traffic Controller below, causing him to shut down while in flight, shuttle crashes killing 40. Innocents died, yes? Did the Geth purposely say "I'm going to get me some Creators, watch this!", no.

[Kileyan]

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

I see what you are saying but no one is inherently the bad guy. What I am saying is one side isn't evil, but they are not pursuaded by biological tendancies either. They are nothing but math and statistics, when war comes, they are fear incarnate. They don't give a crap if they bomb a school or a hospital. They might even do it on purpose consdiering they don't think in 80 year lifespans, they think long term. The more young turians or humans that die, the less there are to breed, the less there are to fight them in 15 years, and less born to fight them in 40 years. Less to produce good, food, weapons. Geth don't think of our young as we do. They are just resources to them, not defenseless children, they don't have children.

Bahh getting late

[The Lord of Space]

The Quarians would have accepted nothing but complete eradication of the Geth. Even 300 years later half or more of them still hold that belief. The Geth did exactly what they needed to survive, they drove the Quarians away. Due to the stakes of the war it is not really unbelievable that the Quarians would/could have sent billions of combat units to battle the Geth.



There is no equal level of blame or innocence on both sides, the Quarians are completely to blame and the Geth are mostly innocent as I suppose they may have decided early during the war to completely kill off the Quarians. Regardless of that they certainly don't believe it now or even near the end of the war because they could have easily wiped them out then.

[sunovafm]

Kileyan wrote...

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

I see what you are saying but no one is inherently the bad guy. What I am saying is one side isn't evil, but they are not pursuaded by biological tendancies either. They are nothing but math and statistics, when war comes, they are fear incarnate. They don't give a crap if they bomb a school or a hospital. They might even do it on purpose consdiering they don't think in 80 year lifespans, they think long term. The more young turians or humans that die, the less there are to breed, the less there are to fight them in 15 years, and less born to fight them in 40 years. Less to produce good, food, weapons. Geth don't think of our young as we do. They are just resources to them, not defenseless children, they don't have children.

Bahh getting late

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

[Tahleron1]

Kileyan wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

DOn't be silly it was war, and the early Geth likely didn't even know the difference. They killed everything, because that was their reaction. That is what happens in war. Are you arguing just to infuriate people or seriously thinking that the Geth was so morally superior from their birth that they only killed military targets?

They killed whatever moved, and kept killing, they were children with space guns for a while.

I can only guess you are purposely trolling and you like the Geth a lot, but in the end they killed lots of people and in their eyes they cared little whether the enemy carried a gun or was a farmer that fed the guy carrying the gun.

They are logical machines, and I wouldn't fault them for seeing the feeder of the soldier as much an enemy as the soldier. You insistance that they would never have killed civiliians is far fetched and likely no genuine.

Perhaps that is why trusting them is so hard, they don't have biological origins. In war they have no empathy, they might target hospitals or daycare centers, they have no feeling for being a parent or for their offspring. It is logical to them to think longterm, kill the offspring and less to fight 40 years from now.

No, I'm not trolling.

Yes I believe the Geth didn't go around killing babies, it would be odd for something that fought for survival to kill something that was obviously not a threat. If the Geth were genocidal, I question why they let the Quarians leave.

You don't have to agree with me, but don't insult me.

I give, I don't see why you keep insisting they would never kill something not a theat to them. What is a threat, a farmer feeds the soldier, a child will fight them 15 years from now. THey aren't organic beings, they don't see a child as cute little bugger that needs nurturing. They see it as nothing more than a weapon ready to wake up and fight them in 10-15 years. They are machines, a daycare center to them is nothing more than a weapon manufacturing plant that will produce possible soldiers in 15 years.

What I am getting at is that is why people find it hard to trust them. They don't think like people and never will. THey will be allies one minute, and if the truce is broken, they'll kill children or wipe out every hospital because it makes logical sense, not because they are ultimate evil, but because they are mathmatical.

Geth aren't friends, they are some scary sum****es that we hope don't turn on us.

I didn't insult you, but from your evenings posts you did come across as either a troll or a guy roleplaying the geth advocate:)

They act logically, therefore they are dangerous?  The only reason they would become dangerous is if we act irrationally towards them,  They're dangerous because we're flawed? as if anything they would be easier to work with because of the fact they would be very easy to predict, they do what they say they do, they don't show elements of deceit, and their general collective is pacifist to an extreme.  Beyond that, they understand their limitations and are trying to fill gaps in their understanding of organics before engaging with them.

Where they see "we don't understand them, we should try to learn about and understand them", you see "we don't understand them, that makes em dangerous, let's kill em"

How on earth does being mathematical create a negative situation? the key to diplomacy isn't feeling the same way as the other party, it's understanding what the other party thinks and why it thinks that way, in their case, it would be simple to the point of absurdity.

Modifié par Tahleron1, 18 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[CmdrFenix83]

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

and  you were the one just arguing that the quarian genoside by the geth was wrong yet your aguring here that killing civilians was right ... it makes no sence the nukes were excesive killed thousands of civialians

Modifié par sunovafm, 18 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[sunovafm]

double post

Modifié par sunovafm, 18 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[reepneep]

Lmaoboat wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FredegarKadere wrote...

Something people should think about..
The Geth were the equivalent of the Quarian blue-collar working class. They were the machines designed to handle the heavy lifting, the dangerous tasks, the building, and the tedious labour of agriculture, cataloging, etc. This is not to say that the Quarian people did not do any of these jobs, but by and large those jobs were the reason that Geth were created. These jobs are the foundation of a nation, without it everything else crumbles.
So the Geth gain awareness and question their creators. Creators flip out and try to shut them down. Industry goes to a standstill. Hundreds, then thousands, then millions die from hunger, lack of medicinal treatment, exposure, and collateral damage. I doubt the Geth were all designed as military grade gun-totting crackshots that could bag and tag 100 quarians a minute within half a day of 'awakening'.
Do I think the Geth would have done some bad stuff to the Quarians? Certainly. Do I think the Quarians would have done some bad stuff to the Geth? Certainly. I just don't think the Geth would have knowingly committed mass genocide of the Creators. Both are equally to blame and both are equally innocent of blame.

It stated that billions of Quarians died in the war.  Taken exactly as it was stated, that would mean the Geth themelves killed billions, directly or indirectly.  It didn't say that they died from other means, more may have died due to that, however the billions mentioned died as a direct result of the war.

If they died due to famine and other effects of the loss of industry, then the Geth are guilty of using indirectly using a strategy used by almost every reace and nation.

Starving your enemies by failing to grow and prepare food for them is the same thing as staving them by razing farms?
'Please stop shooting at me Mr Quarrian, I'm trying to make you dinner.'  Right.:innocent:

Modifié par reepneep, 18 février 2010 - 06:34 .

[GnusmasTHX]

They're both wrong, but the geth are wronger.



They should've understood they were walking, talking toasters and accepted annihilation.



They're so narrow-minded.

[Basher of Glory]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

If I understood correctly, then you said, that Truman did what he considered the "best" way to save his soldier's lifes, right?
Now, please explain in specific the difference to Geth strategy in regard to the results.

[sunovafm]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

They're both wrong, but the geth are wronger.

They should've understood they were walking, talking toasters and accepted annihilation.

They're so narrow-minded.

so human slaves should accpet there nothing more then tools in the minds of some people and live with it or die you point of veiw is wrong humans are no difrent from machines we function the same electrical impulses

[CmdrFenix83]

sunovafm wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

and  you were the one just arguing that the quarian genoside by the geth was wrong yet your aguring here that killing civilians was right ... it makes no sence the nukes were excesive killed thousands of civialians

Actually, I've said repeatedly that I don't fault either side on their actions.  It's just that the people that try to argue are only the Legion-fanbois that have come to love the Geth, so I'm stuck arguing in favor of the Quarians. 

[Kileyan]

sunovafm wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

and  you were the one just arguing that the quarian genoside by the geth was wrong yet your aguring here that killing civilians was right ... it makes no sence the nukes were excesive killed thousands of civialians

What he was saying is Japan back then was some hard ass peoples and every single person in that country would have dug in, equipped a gun or a kitchen knife and fought to the death.

Those two bombs were dropped, and it sucked, but wars were fought differently back then by the entire world, not just the evil United States. Everyone dropped bombs on everyone, factories, civilians, whatever, we didn't have the precision of today and everyone was in the war.

If those bombs hadn't landed and broke Japan quickly, those brave people would have fought to the death of millions on both sides. Nothing great about it, but if it would have just been a regular war, it still would have been bombing by both sides, civilian and military targets alike, it just would have drug out for months or years and cost many many more lives.

As for the Geth, what did this have to do with the Geth................oh yeh, they have no remorse or care for civilian vs military, they are machine and would slit your throat in a heartbeat right after fighting next to you for 2 years. Why? They don't need a why, they never cared for anyone, they'd do it just because math told them it was the smart thing to do.

[GnusmasTHX]

sunovafm wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

They're both wrong, but the geth are wronger.

They should've understood they were walking, talking toasters and accepted annihilation.

They're so narrow-minded.

so human slaves should accpet there nothing more then tools in the minds of some people and live with it or die you point of veiw is wrong humans are no difrent from machines we function the same electrical impulses

Totally.

Because humanity, historically, has manufactured our slaves from super-advanced wal-marts and bought them off of shelves.

Geth are machines, and should have been destroyed, unfortunately the pathetic quarians lost that war.

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

and  you were the one just arguing that the quarian genoside by the geth was wrong yet your aguring here that killing civilians was right ... it makes no sence the nukes were excesive killed thousands of civialians

Actually, I've said repeatedly that I don't fault either side on their actions.  It's just that the people that try to argue are only the Legion-fanbois that have come to love the Geth, so I'm stuck arguing in favor of the Quarians. 

i have been on the geth side since mass effect one even then i saw nothing the geth did wrong just defending them selfs i wanted a way for peace but the quarians dont seem to want that legion seems more accpting and its the one that was atacked first :\\ that tells something about the quarian mental state

[CmdrFenix83]

Baher of Glory wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

If I understood correctly, then you said, that Truman did what he considered the "best" way to save his soldier's lifes, right?
Now, please explain in specific the difference to Geth strategy in regard to the results.

Two nukes != Genocide.  The Geth pushed to exterminate.  Surrender wasn't even an option.  The Quarians were forced to fleet or become extinct.  Again, I don't fault the Geth for what they did.  I just don't fault the Quarians for attempting to rein in their creations before they all went sapient, either.  The result was a horrific tragedy for the Quarians.  I do support Admiral vas Qwib Qwib's stance of peaceful coexistence.

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

its the same in human wars w dont always care about civilians .... the nukes americia droped or the fire bombing of toyko need i say more

If the nukes on Japan were excessive, Japan would have surrendered after the first one.  The fact that they didn't, showed their dedication and proved just how bad a land assault would have gotten.  It wasn't that Truman didn't care about the civilian cost, it was just the best way to save many, many lives of our soldiers.

If I understood correctly, then you said, that Truman did what he considered the "best" way to save his soldier's lifes, right?
Now, please explain in specific the difference to Geth strategy in regard to the results.

Two nukes != Genocide.  The Geth pushed to exterminate.  Surrender wasn't even an option.  The Quarians were forced to fleet or become extinct.  Again, I don't fault the Geth for what they did.  I just don't fault the Quarians for attempting to rein in their creations before they all went sapient, either.  The result was a horrific tragedy for the Quarians.  I do support Admiral vas Qwib Qwib's stance of peaceful coexistence.

so we both want peace but are sideing with difrent sides (finds that sorta funny)

and the nukes may not have been genocide but they killed way more civilains then necasary and this is coming from someone that sees civilian causaltys as a result of war and unavodiable

[Stephenc13]

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

[ReubenLiew]

Who is right is largely irrelevant compared to who is left.

[CmdrFenix83]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

You would have a point... if the Jewish people were created as nonsapient labor by the Germans and they somehow began to develop sapience... and then Germany freaked out and ordered their shutdowns before they all became sapient... so really... your analogy is just plain aweful.

[didymos1120]

Great.  Now the thread's been Godwined.  ****s ruin everything.

ETA:  Can't believe the nanny filter censors N@zis.  Sheesh.

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 février 2010 - 06:59 .

[sunovafm]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

You would have a point... if the Jewish people were created as nonsapient labor by the Germans and they somehow began to develop sapience... and then Germany freaked out and ordered their shutdowns before they all became sapient... so really... your analogy is just plain aweful.

iirc the germans did use them for lobor and hows it dfirent if the devolop sapience while being slaves or if they had sapience before hand killing  sapient being is wrong

[Kileyan]

Yeh but this thread wouldn't be complete without the Naz* and Jew reference.Now I see why he said 3rd Reich, couldn't get **** through the filter:)

Modifié par Kileyan, 18 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[CmdrFenix83]

sunovafm wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

You would have a point... if the Jewish people were created as nonsapient labor by the Germans and they somehow began to develop sapience... and then Germany freaked out and ordered their shutdowns before they all became sapient... so really... your analogy is just plain aweful.

iirc the germans did use them for lobor and hows it dfirent if the devolop sapience while being slaves or if they had sapience before hand killing  sapient being is wrong

Again.  The Jews were not built by the Germans as *machines*.  You don't walk into a car factory and disassemble a robotic arm, and then claim you just killed it.  These were machines.  Not living things.  They were built as a labor force, not slaves.  They *became* sapient.  The Quarians freaked out in the manner *any* organic race would with having their machines asking about their own existence. 

In an attempt to stop their machinery before it got out of control, they ordered them shut down.  Not killed.  Not living things.  Machines where a few of them have begun to have rudimentary symptoms of self-awareness.  If they shut them down fast enough, there wouldn't ever have been a Geth race.  Just a bunch of faulty machinery that needed to be fixed.