549 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Oh, i get it, but Geth should have the exact rights as any other being in the galaxy, but the hostility every species shows i think causes the Geth to be hostile, along with the heretics

Any incursion into the Persius Veil resulted in the ship being destroyed.  The Geth remained fiercely territorial.  Justified due to their history with the Quarians and the known fact that organics fear AI?  Definitely.  The Heretics definitely hurt their image on the galactic stage, however.  Making anyone believe that it was just a rogue group within their own system would be extremely difficult, especially when the galaxy as a whole don't believe in the existence of the Reapers.  In fact, I think that only Anderson, Shepard's crew, Cerberus, and the Quarians believe in the existence of the Reapers.

Currently, on the galactic stage, the Geth are no better than the Rachni were.  Simply a beaten enemy.

[Stephenc13]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Oh, i get it, but Geth should have the exact rights as any other being in the galaxy, but the hostility every species shows i think causes the Geth to be hostile, along with the heretics

Any incursion into the Persius Veil resulted in the ship being destroyed.  The Geth remained fiercely territorial.  Justified due to their history with the Quarians and the known fact that organics fear AI?  Definitely.  The Heretics definitely hurt their image on the galactic stage, however.  Making anyone believe that it was just a rogue group within their own system would be extremely difficult, especially when the galaxy as a whole don't believe in the existence of the Reapers.  In fact, I think that only Anderson, Shepard's crew, Cerberus, and the Quarians believe in the existence of the Reapers.

Currently, on the galactic stage, the Geth are no better than the Rachni were.  Simply a beaten enemy.

I think Geth fear organics too.

[Basher of Glory]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

Horrible comparison.

While the Quarrians had reasons to disable the Geth and the Geth had reasons to fight back, the N@zis had exactly ZERO reasons to do what they did to the Jewish people other than blunt racism paired with megalomaniac delusion about the "Nordic Ubermensch".

Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

Nothing of this applys to the Quarrian/Geth-relation.

Greetings from Nuernberg, GermanyB)

[Stephenc13]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think of it as the third Reich, except the jewish communities fighting back

Horrible comparison.

While the Quarrians had reasons to disable the Geth and the Geth had reasons to fight back, the N@zis had exactly ZERO reasons to do what they did to the Jewish people other than blunt racism paired with megalomaniac delusion about the "Nordic Ubermensch".

Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

Nothing of this applys to the Quarrian/Geth-relation.

Greetings from Nuernberg, GermanyB)

Well, the part where the quarians have no reason to try to demolish the geth relates

[Veriso]

Baher is pointing out that the geth were at least potentially a threat to the Quarians, a factor that doesn't exist in the German comparison, making it a bad analogy.

Edit- Hah, Godwin's Law is enforced by the language filters.

Modifié par Veriso, 18 février 2010 - 08:44 .

[Basher of Glory]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Well, the part where the quarians have no reason to try to demolish the geth relates

As I stated many times, IMO the Geth are the victims.

Nevertheless, from their point of view the Quarrians certainly had reasons to disable the Geth.
At least for me anxiety is more of a reason than racism.

[Stephenc13]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Well, the part where the quarians have no reason to try to demolish the geth relates

As I stated many times, IMO the Geth are the victims.

Nevertheless, from their point of view the Quarrians certainly had reasons to disable the Geth.
At least for me anxiety is more of a reason than racism.

I think quarians turned racist, besides Adam Baldwin's character, cause he's adam baldwin.
anyway, I know if something i created acted like geth id try to get rid of it, but if it was a real life situation, I think the quarians got it all wrong.

[CmdrFenix83]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Well, the part where the quarians have no reason to try to demolish the geth relates

As I stated many times, IMO the Geth are the victims.

Nevertheless, from their point of view the Quarrians certainly had reasons to disable the Geth.
At least for me anxiety is more of a reason than racism.

I think quarians turned racist, besides Adam Baldwin's character, cause he's adam baldwin.
anyway, I know if something i created acted like geth id try to get rid of it, but if it was a real life situation, I think the quarians got it all wrong.

Think about that though.  You're a Quarian.  You were born on the Flotilla.  You've lived your entire life in either a bubble or an environment suit.  You grew up being told constantly how your ancestors built a bunch of machines to do work for them, and those machines became sapient.  When they tried to correct the error, the Geth retaliated violently and nearly wiped out your people, forcing them into the position you're in now, floating around the galaxy with no home.  Living this horrid existence that you were born into.

You might be just a little peeved at them as well.

[Basher of Glory]

@ Stephenc13

When the Quarrians turned "racist" as you see it, then they acknowledged the Geth as "race" beforehand.
In your theory the Quarrians committed willingly and deliberately genozide.
Well, seems like the Geth are now even more the victims rather than guilty.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 18 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[Stephenc13]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Well, the part where the quarians have no reason to try to demolish the geth relates

As I stated many times, IMO the Geth are the victims.

Nevertheless, from their point of view the Quarrians certainly had reasons to disable the Geth.
At least for me anxiety is more of a reason than racism.

I think quarians turned racist, besides Adam Baldwin's character, cause he's adam baldwin.
anyway, I know if something i created acted like geth id try to get rid of it, but if it was a real life situation, I think the quarians got it all wrong.

Think about that though.  You're a Quarian.  You were born on the Flotilla.  You've lived your entire life in either a bubble or an environment suit.  You grew up being told constantly how your ancestors built a bunch of machines to do work for them, and those machines became sapient.  When they tried to correct the error, the Geth retaliated violently and nearly wiped out your people, forcing them into the position you're in now, floating around the galaxy with no home.  Living this horrid existence that you were born into.

You might be just a little peeved at them as well.

I do admit I would have a grudge, but I will also say when I get the opportunity to say my opinion in the leadership, I would seek a peaceful solution. The Geth are only reacting because they are threatened. 
Imagine, you are a geth, you recieve some information because you were newly programmed, and it says the Quarians built you and are trying to destroy you, what are you supposed to think?

[Tahleron1]

didymos1120 wrote...

OK, people seem to keep getting hung up on the 'machine' thing. First off, it's being used in multiple senses.  When people say 'just machines', they typically mean 'Not self-aware. Lacking consciousness.'  This is separate from the sense of the word 'machine' that includes organisms like ourselves. Second, the Geth really were just elaborate tools for most of their early existence.  And the Quarians thought nearly all of them still were 'just machines' when the shutdown order was issued.  So right up until the moment some mobile platforms started killing people, the Quarians fully believed they'd acted before the point at which the Geth were no longer 'just machines'.  So (for the most part) when someone says 'Quarians were simply dealing with faulty machines', they're talking about what the Quarians thought at the time. Obviously, they were wrong, but they didn't know that.

ETA: I see I was scooped some there.  I meant well though.

The quarians were trying to fix their own mistake before the asari, salarians, turians etc became aware of it, they knew it had become sapient, they just didn't want anyone else knowing.

Laws against an AI were already in place, and they would have been expelled for just that, the resultant attempted genocide to cover up their mistake only solidified the council's disgust.

Modifié par Tahleron1, 18 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Stephenc13 wrote...

I do admit I would have a grudge, but I will also say when I get the opportunity to say my opinion in the leadership, I would seek a peaceful solution. The Geth are only reacting because they are threatened. 
Imagine, you are a geth, you recieve some information because you were newly programmed, and it says the Quarians built you and are trying to destroy you, what are you supposed to think?

I've already said the Geth are justified in their actions.  I just don't condemn the Quarians either.

[Stephenc13]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I've already said the Geth are justified in their actions.  I just don't condemn the Quarians either.

I kinda dislike the Quarians but I think we pretty much have the same opinions

[didymos1120]

Tahleron1 wrote...

The quarians were trying to fix their own mistake before the asari, salarians, turians etc became aware of it, they knew it had become sapient, they just didn't want anyone else knowing.

Laws against an AI were already in place, and they would have been expelled for just that, the resultant attempted genocide to cover up their mistake only solidified the council's disgust.

Yes, surely a factor in the haste of their response.  Not the whole story though.  They were genuinely afraid of a rebellion first and foremost.  And no, we don't know they would have been expelled for what happened had they managed to stop it.  All we know is that they were expelled after the fact.  I.e., when most of them had been slaughtered already (which makes it kind of a d!ck move on the part of the Council if you ask me: 'Oh, you've been rendered nearly extinct and have nowhere to go and most of you horribly traumatized refugees almost certainly had nothing to do with causing the problem in the first place?  OK, hold still while we kick you in the head a few times, lecture you, and then make it clear that you're basically fair game for anyone else who'd like a turn for the forseeable future.  Now go away.')  The Codex is pretty clear that the Geth incident prompted even more restrictions and was responsible for the almost total moratorium on AI research in modern Council space.  And, once again: The. Quarians. did. not. know. it. was. genocide. at. the. time.  It's certainly entirely possible that they did, but the, you know, complete and utter lack of evidence to that effect kinda puts a damper on that theory for the time being.  But, OK, say we did have evidence.  Guess what?  You're talking about a very small number of people in the relevant positions of authority, possibly in the single digits range.  The vast majority of Quarians would have known little to nothing about it until Geth started attacking and killing them. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 février 2010 - 10:34 .

[didymos1120]

Baher of Glory wrote...
Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

I've always found it well...not funny...but, say, 'darkly amusing' that by running out so many extremely skilled, educated and very, very smart Jews, so many of whom were quite understandably pissed the hell off and went right to work for the Allies as a result, that Germany basically guaranteed that even if it had managed to win, they were going to pay one hell of a price for it.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  

[TuringPoint]

The Geth are not human. They do not fear, pity, or show remorse like we do.

I'm sorry, they're not "right." They are beings, but they are not human, and they aren't even alien. They did not evolve for survival, they evolved from toasters.

I don't think they're wrong necessarily, though.  I definitely feel the Quarians may have been in the wrong.

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Kileyan wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
]The vast and overwhelming majority of  Quarians are not soldiers, and the same was true of their ancestors.

Wait, how do you know that the vast majority of Quarians were non-combatants?

Therefore, the vast and overwhelming majority of Quarians killed by the Geth during the Morning War were non-combatants. 

You're concluding that because such a large number of the Quarian population were killed, that a majority of that number were non-combatatns... I don't see the evidence to support that outside of your own supposition.

DOn't be silly it was war, and the early Geth likely didn't even know the difference. They killed everything, because that was their reaction. That is what happens in war. Are you arguing just to infuriate people or seriously thinking that the Geth was so morally superior from their birth that they only killed military targets?

They killed whatever moved, and kept killing, they were children with space guns for a while.

I can only guess you are purposely trolling and you like the Geth a lot, but in the end they killed lots of people and in their eyes they cared little whether the enemy carried a gun or was a farmer that fed the guy carrying the gun.

They are logical machines, and I wouldn't fault them for seeing the feeder of the soldier as much an enemy as the soldier. Your insistance that they would never have killed civiliians is far fetched and likely not genuine.

Perhaps that is why trusting them is so hard, they don't have biological origins. In war they have no empathy, they might target hospitals or daycare centers, they have no feeling for being a parent or for their offspring, being fair or worrying about time. It is logical to them to think longterm, kill the offspring and less to fight 40 years from now. Why beat your enemy, kill their children and the defenseless and wait them out.

Are they evil......nahh, just machines.

What lead you to believe the bolded bit?  And if it is true, then there is your justification for the quarians reacting the way they did: if the geth, as an emerging conciousness, would kill like that, then they may in fact have been the threat the quarians thought they would be.  The quarians may have worked out that as an emerging sentience the geth would kill them due to their thinking process, and that just because they may eventually gain enough sapience to realise otherwise by then it would be too late for the quarians.  Hell, the geth did react rather quickly to the quarian attack, alot quicker a emerging sapient race might do in fact, maybe they had already been stockpiling weapons ready to butcher the quarians already? 

I still think Legion's comment that the recording he plays for you that it was not the first time a geth asked whether it had a soul but the first time a quarian got worried at it asking the question needs further investigation, something about the way he said it leads me to think that there was something more that we haven't learnt yet going on.

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

I said it on page one and I'll say it again...

The
Quarians didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life.
They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a
world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly
complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what
would happen if one day Skynet happened. Would you just say "Oh, sorry,
our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

And that was just as
horrible and inaccurate of an argument back then than it is now

How is it horrible or inaccurate? It's the same exact situation...

If
we have intelligent machines that work for us I would like to know
where I can get one, I'm tired of having to take out the trash. Also
what is this worldwide network that our robot servants currently
function under?

Man I really need to get out if I didn't know about robots being real or even part of a network yet.

Neither were the geth when the quarians first built them.  People need to stop thinking of the geth as being enslaved, they were toasters until they gained sapience, and then the quarians tried killing them.  Would you be guilty of slavery if the computer you were posting on developed sapience?  Yes, but only if you carried on using it as a tool after finding out that it was sapient.  The quarians built robots to do manual labour, in that light it is the same.

[fateofman]

Alocormin wrote...

The Geth are not human. They do not fear, pity, or show remorse like we do.


They did not evolve for survival,

they evolved from toasters.

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?

[TuringPoint]

fateofman wrote...
not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?

But - it is NOT hypocritical at all.

Their existence is not the same as our own.  Clearly you're foaming too much to see that this is my only point of contention.  Legion says this, and it is accurate.  We can certainly hope they'll learn emotion, but it will never be like our emotion.

Apologies for the crude metaphor - I hope you understand what I'm trying to say

Another point:

If the Quarians numbered in the billions - which I've no doubt they did - and the Geth were war machines for them, how likely is it that even anywhere close to 100 % of combatants were military?  Maybe thirty percent of the Quarian population was military?

Seriously?  No.  The humans are a minority in how few serve with the Military, or the Alliance for that matter, but a majority of the Quarians killed by the Geth, or whose death was caused by Geth action or as a result of the war, were civilian populations.  Regardless of judgement - war is always messy - that is simply the truth.

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[adam_grif]

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?

Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.

[FlintlockJazz]

didymos1120 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...
Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

I've always found it well...not funny...but, say, 'darkly amusing' that by running out so many extremely skilled, educated and very, very smart Jews, so many of whom were quite understandably pissed the hell off and went right to work for the Allies as a result, that Germany basically guaranteed that even if it had managed to win, they were going to pay one hell of a price for it.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  

With Einstein they not only shot themselves in the foot, they took a shotgun, put their mouth over the barrel, and then pulled the trigger. 

[adam_grif]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...
Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

I've always found it well...not funny...but, say, 'darkly amusing' that by running out so many extremely skilled, educated and very, very smart Jews, so many of whom were quite understandably pissed the hell off and went right to work for the Allies as a result, that Germany basically guaranteed that even if it had managed to win, they were going to pay one hell of a price for it.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  

With Einstein they not only shot themselves in the foot, they took a shotgun, put their mouth over the barrel, and then pulled the trigger. 

No, that's what happened when they decided to invade Russia. Letting Einstein go was nothing in comparison, because Einstein was not involved in the work on the Atomic bomb in any direct fashion, and his theories of General and Special relativity, which paved the way for the development of nuclear weapons, were both published before the First World War.

Modifié par adam_grif, 18 février 2010 - 10:46 .

[FlintlockJazz]

adam_grif wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...
Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.

I've always found it well...not funny...but, say, 'darkly amusing' that by running out so many extremely skilled, educated and very, very smart Jews, so many of whom were quite understandably pissed the hell off and went right to work for the Allies as a result, that Germany basically guaranteed that even if it had managed to win, they were going to pay one hell of a price for it.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  

With Einstein they not only shot themselves in the foot, they took a shotgun, put their mouth over the barrel, and then pulled the trigger. 

No, that's what happened when they decided to invade Russia. Letting Einstein go was nothing in comparison, because Einstein was not involved in the work on the Atomic bomb in any direct fashion, and his theories of General and Special relativity, which paved the way for the development of nuclear weapons, were both published before the First World War.

Ah, I had presumed that since he was apparently at it's testing and subsequently campaigned against nuclear weapons as a result of what he saw that he had worked on it as part of the team, still they lost out on a genius there.  As for the russian bit, that's not shooting yourself in the face with a shotgun, that's shooting yourself in the face with a missle, repeatedly.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 18 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[TuringPoint]

fateofman wrote...

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

"They do not share your pity, remorse, or fear."  - Legion, about the heretics, but generally about his species.  Not that he can't work with you or share a common agenda.

[Tahleron1]

adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?

Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.

The Reapers have emotions, they don't have a biological brain, lol

Saying "they're a machine race, they lack x cognitive ability" seems sort of redundant when there's a near immortal race machine race headed your way...

Heck Nazara actually stated organics lack the necessary cognitive capabilities, lol

The Geth certainly have a long way to go, but lol, organics aren't the pinnacle of life in this universe

Modifié par Tahleron1, 18 février 2010 - 11:12 .