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The geth are right. Who agrees?


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#426
Basher of Glory

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...
Further, the Jewish people were not exactly "created" by the Germans. Until 1933 they were part of the intellectual and financial elite. Many of them achieved high medals during WW 1. It's valid to consider them as fully integrated, yet proud of their roots.


I've always found it well...not funny...but, say, 'darkly amusing' that by running out so many extremely skilled, educated and very, very smart Jews, so many of whom were quite understandably pissed the hell off and went right to work for the Allies as a result, that Germany basically guaranteed that even if it had managed to win, they were going to pay one hell of a price for it.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  


With Einstein they not only shot themselves in the foot, they took a shotgun, put their mouth over the barrel, and then pulled the trigger. 


Well, it was not only Einstein. There were also (et al.)
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hans_Bethe
http://de.wikipedia....ictor_Weisskopf
http://de.wikipedia....iki/Otto_Frisch (GB)
http://de.wikipedia..../Rudolf_Peierls (GB)

not to forget
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlene_Dietrich

But this seems to be far off topic.

#427
fateofman

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adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?


Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.


why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false

#428
DarthCaine

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I think that the Geth are left, not right

#429
Tahleron1

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fateofman wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?


Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.


why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false


Because the Geth are the only AI of note in the ME universe? oh wait.... ;)

#430
fateofman

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Tahleron1 wrote...

fateofman wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?


Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.


why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false


Because the Geth are the only AI of note in the ME universe? oh wait.... ;)


what does AI have to do with anything? please explain your thoughts about what an emotion is?

cause in fact its jsut chemical switches from different nueral networks in your brain, something would not be that hard to replicate inside an AI

#431
Akinra

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I think it's difficult to make any definitive judgements or assertions about events during the war. We can try to make educated guesses about how many civilian casualties there were on the quarian side. But as Alocormin said above, war is messy. Especially when you take into account that many of the geth would have had civilian owners that would have been there first target when they first revolted.

What I think is most important for the geth, and the quarians in particular now, is that they realise, as is always the case in any war, that there was probably wrong on both sides and that another war now between the two sides would be disastrous. Particulary as my guess is that the quarians would be slaughtered.

Modifié par Akinra, 18 février 2010 - 11:20 .


#432
Tahleron1

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fateofman wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

fateofman wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

not hypocritical at all

they do show remorse, they regret having to fight the creators, presumably they will have other emotions and maybe in time have more

they are more than they seem otherwise why would they care-take the quarian homeworld?


Why would they have emotions? To have emotions you need to have a biological brain. As best we can tell the Geth don't experience emotions in any way. They have goal states, and self preservation is one of them. They have no plan to kill anybody they don't need to in order to survive. You might say it was undesirable to kill so many quarrians for them, but they weren't remorseful about it in the sense that you or I might be.


why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false


Because the Geth are the only AI of note in the ME universe? oh wait.... ;)


what does AI have to do with anything? please explain your thoughts about what an emotion is?

cause in fact its jsut chemical switches from different nueral networks in your brain, something would not be that hard to replicate inside an AI


The Reapers demonstrate emotions without a biological brain, therefore the need for a biological brain for emotion is?

#433
fateofman

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Tahleron1 wrote...


The Reapers demonstrate emotions without a biological brain, therefore the need for a biological brain for emotion is?

naught.... i believe we have the same point of view and misinterpreted eachother :P

Modifié par fateofman, 18 février 2010 - 11:20 .


#434
Few87

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The Geth are robots who have almost destroyed a race! They are the most evil things in the game! They all need to be destroyed so the Quarians can go home.

#435
fateofman

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Few87 wrote...

The Geth are robots who have almost destroyed a race! They are the most evil things in the game! They all need to be destroyed so the Quarians can go home.


shoo quarian fan :P their not evil at all, quarians tried to kill them first, and the quarians cant go home anyway cause of their sun :P

#436
adam_grif

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fateofman wrote...

why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false


Because emotions are the direct result of the limbic system, and function with the release of hormones and neurotransmitters. The purpose of emotions is to set goals, likes, dislikes and so on for otherwise undirected minds. You like things because they make you feel good. You do things because you like things or are avoiding things you don't like.

The experience of it is a whole bunch of sensory inputs (increased temperature of the skin, increased heartrate, and so on) combined with general feelings of like or dislike. Such systems are redundant in a Geth because AIs can simply be designed to set sub-goals based on generalized initial ones. There's no reason for them to feel emotions, on a funcitonal level, and complex systems like that don't just "appear" out of nowhere. There would be no reason for them to want to put them in themselves because it in no way improves their ability to survive or expand, and several snippets of dialogue indicate that Geth don't feel emotions.

"We do not experience fear, but we understand how it affects you." There was also the example someone else just gave above.

This is all ignoring questions like whether AI's have subjective experience at all.

Modifié par adam_grif, 18 février 2010 - 11:47 .


#437
fateofman

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adam_grif wrote...

fateofman wrote...

why do you need a biological brain for emotions? thats what you imagine to be true but infact could be completely false


1)Because emotions are the direct result of the limbic system, and function with the release of hormones and neurotransmitters. The purpose of emotions is to set goals, likes, dislikes and so on for otherwise undirected minds. You like things because they make you feel good. You do things because you like things or are avoiding things you don't like.

2)The experience of it is a whole bunch of sensory inputs (increased temperature of the skin, increased heartrate, and so on) combined with general feelings of like or dislike. Such systems are redundant in a Geth because AIs can simply be designed to set sub-goals based on generalized initial ones. There's no reason for them to feel emotions, on a funcitonal level, and complex systems like that don't just "appear" out of nowhere.

3)There would be no reason for them to want to put them in themselves because it in no way improves their ability to survive or expand,

4)and several snippets of dialogue indicate that Geth don't feel emotions.

"We do not experience fear, but we understand how it affects you." There was also the example someone else just gave above.

This is all ignoring questions like whether AI's have subjective experience at all.


1) something that could be easily replicated with a miriad of programmes.
2) legion have many data inputs, probably more than humans, geth do not have goals, similar to organic forms since their uprising and freedom, they do what they do to create "their future" which sounds more emotional than mechanical imo, the complex systems were created subliminally by the quarians by making the geth linked together.
3) that does not influence the argument as my side of the argument states they do already have them, they did not choose to have them or not. but i'll answer best i can, emotions are similar to a code say emotions are made from 5 chemical switches in your brain (for analogies sake) then happy may be 11100 anger may be 00111, so on and so forth. certain programs from within the geth may simulate these stimuli, having a differnt view and creating the same effect as emotions
4) there are also hints at to them having another side, which the cannot logically explain

#438
adam_grif

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something that could be easily replicated with a miriad of programmes.




Being able to replicate the functionality of emotions has never been called into question.



legion have many data inputs, probably more than humans, geth do not have goals, similar to organic forms since their uprising and freedom, they do what they do to create "their future" which sounds more emotional than mechanical imo, the complex systems were created subliminally by the quarians by making the geth linked together.




"Sounds emotional"? What, are we considering blind speculation based on vague inferences to be considered evidence now?



3) that does not influence the argument as my side of the argument states they do already have them, they did not choose to have them or not. but i'll answer best i can, emotions are similar to a code say emotions are made from 5 chemical switches in your brain (for analogies sake) then happy may be 11100 anger may be 00111, so on and so forth. certain programs from within the geth may simulate these stimuli, having a differnt view and creating the same effect as emotions




Why do they already have them?



Lets recap:



- Zero evidence to suggest they were created with it

- Zero evidence to suggest they have subsequently developed

- Direct quote from Legion saying they don't experience Fear

- Direct quote from Legion saying they don't experience a list of emotions.



4) there are also hints at to them having another side, which the cannot logically explain




Oh, do tell.

#439
Basher of Glory

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I guess, it's like Sovereign told Shep on Virmire:

"....what we are is beyond your comprehension".

The definition of the limbic system is rather obsolete and IMO no evidence at all that an AI should not be able to develop compareable systems.

Perhaps we could agree on this:

The Geth (= synthetically evolved lifeform) are different from organic lifeforms.

Different does not necessarily mean unable to develop functionally adequate mindsets.

#440
adam_grif

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Baher of Glory wrote...

I guess, it's like Sovereign told Shep on Virmire:
"....what we are is beyond your comprehension".


So a wizard did it?

#441
fateofman

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adam_grif wrote...


1)Being able to replicate the functionality of emotions has never been called into question.


2)"Sounds emotional"? What, are we considering blind speculation based on vague inferences to be considered evidence now?


3)Why do they already have them?

Lets recap:

- Zero evidence to suggest they were created with it
- Zero evidence to suggest they have subsequently developed
- Direct quote from Legion saying they don't experience Fear
- Direct quote from Legion saying they don't experience a list of emotions.


4)Oh, do tell.


1) then why so resistant to believe they have emotion similar programmes?

2) what would you say it was? why are they at the quarian homeworld? why has legion used shepards armour?

3) and yes while thse direct quotes are correct, howe do you know they dont have something similar, if they had no fear they would not care about defences. They have a logical equivelent to it

4) see 2

#442
Sabre120

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I could go either way in this situation, the Geth and the Quarians aren't all goody two shoes, this scenario really is a morally grey area, but if anything, after getting to know Legion, I would have to side with the Geth

#443
Slayer299

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You know, I find this almost mind-boggling with all the Geth-love going on for the last 18 pages. Because it seems the majority of posters keep saying "Awww! The poor widdle fwuffy bunny Geth were just minding their own business after doing all that their slave masters wanted." Is that a direct quote? No. But it does seem to cover about 90% of the comments thus far. Or my other favorite though is how the Geth were enslaved by the EVIL Quarrians...HUH!???? Where did *that* idea come from? The Geth were machines built to do dangerous and repetitive and other labor tasks, sorta like TODAY! How do you ENSLAVE a machine? Or is it being suggested we *free* the *poor* robots that build our cars, computers, toasters or vacuum the house? Geth were robots that were built to do dangerous and repetitive tasks, with their success at theses tasks they were then programmed to do more and more complex tasks by linking together...this eventually led to the beginnings of sentience, hence their asking the Creators 'who am I?" I've seen it commented on how if their toaster or computer started talking the person would A)Run screaming away and/or B)rip the electrical cord out and toss the item across the room, both are not unusual responses really. I can't see the majority of humans (or ANY species) being all happy and calm and thinking to themselves "Hey! My toaster's sentient and a thinking creature'...Not.
Now, when the Geth started asking those very questions we know the Quarrians panicked and over-reacted which led to their attempt to deactivate the Geth en masse and well that brought about the Morning War with the Geth striking back first to protect themselves. Now the Geth inital response makes perfect sense really, they' are trying to protect themselves, my problem is that their were at least several billion Quarrians on their homeworld and not including the several colonies we're told about. But they weren't going to compartmentalize the Creators into combatants and non. The Creators attacked and we fight right back against them, and they obviously didn't diffentiate between the two.
Now that we're here I have to ask who in their right mind gets the idea that if you have a population of say 6 billion, as that's Earth's present population how the extermination of multi-billions is acceptable since most of would be soldiers! Again, another HUH??? Even with the Quarrians fighting back you won't have anything close to a billion or two soldiers. Just because you have 250,000 soldiers (as a numerical example), not even close to that total number would be on the front lines with guns, even if they wanted and it takes time to train new soldiers. 
As for the Quarrians, did they overreact to the Geth? Hell yes, not a question really, that was pretty obvious that the present day Quarrians feel that they are the injured party with the Geth being the giant boogeymen who are keeping them away from their home. With the passage of 300 years it hasn't gotten any better than when they left either.
Finally, on this almost interminably long post, I don't understand the use of the N@zis and the Jews for comparison with the Quarrian/Geth situation as neither can really be compared overall to what happened. The N@zi's forced the Jews to become slave labor for their war machine and worked at systematically wiping them off the planet. How does that work with the Geth? They were robots...non-sentient *machines* and comparing them to what was done to the Jews (fellow human beings mind you!) is an insult to them I'd think.
In conclusion, the Geth were not right, the Quarrians were not right. Neither were right when it comes down to it. Both went too far, neither side has a leg to stand on when claiming they are the injured party irregardless of the histrionics being vented here from either side.
Well, that's it for me. I just wanted to get that off my chest since it was really bothering me. I've already pulled out the flame-retardent blanket since I've seen the strident and voiciferous replies back and forth here.

#444
Basher of Glory

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Did you *really* read every post in this thread?



If you did, I wonder about your post...



If you did not, go and do it.

#445
TuringPoint

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@fateofman



It's not just that Geth don't have emotions. It's that we have no way to predict how they would develop, or if they would develop emotions, or under what conditions those emotions would be triggered. We exist in emotional states, which is not what the Geth have, and not what they will ever have.



For me, the issue is less that I know that they don't have emotions than I don't know if they do have emotions. Legion doesn't behave like a human being, doesn't have analogies like a human being, but is at least rational enough to not just be a machine that does little more than kill organics.



So what will they do now? Will they develop pity? Will they develop a rational judgement that is sympathetic to the Quarians? Will they decide, simply, that fighting organics is not efficient, or that their development has a long way to go before purging organics is necessary?



And, really, those questions are far more interesting. My educated guess is that they don't have emotions, but that they are very rational, and they are capable of understanding concepts which have emotional connotation for us.

#446
Slayer299

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Baher of Glory wrote...

Did you *really* read every post in this thread?

If you did, I wonder about your post...

If you did not, go and do it.


Actually, yes. 1 - 14 yesterday and then 15 - 18 today.

#447
Alien Alloyd

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I believe the Geth are right, I was a geth sympathiser in the first game as Tali explains Quarians just attacked them straight away without allowing them to express their wishes, but now i'm definately on the Geth side after ME2 and Legion...however, i still love Tali :D

Modifié par Alien Alloyd, 18 février 2010 - 05:26 .


#448
datakim

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I think in the Quarian/Geth conflict. The Quarians are at fault, back then and even now.

There is no question that the Quarians started the war. Even their own history admits this. The fact that they did not intend to create sentient AI is essentially irrelevant to me. The fact remains that they DID. They created a new sentient species. And the very first action they took upon realising this, was to try and wipe out this new species. I place no blame on the Geth for trying to survive against a hostile aggressor trying to wipe them out.

Yes, the Geth did cause significant civilian casualties both directly and likely indirectly. Given that the Quarian labor force was mostly Geth, simple refusal to work probably caused mass starvation and such. And it is certainly possible that the Geth did not/could not distinguish which Quarians were non-combatant and killed them in the fighting. And it seems likely that when the Quarians fled, they probably did not have enough resources to maintain their numbers in the ships, and had people die due to overpopulation problems. So there is no denying that innocents died in that war, on both sides. And the Quarian population has continued to dimish due to population control, until we reach the current 17 million.

But again, the Quarians could have tried to find peace, apologize for their actions, try to explain that they reacted out of fear and so on. If they had, and the Geth had refused these attempts to reach a settlement, I would have more sympathy for the Quarians. But there does not seem to be any sign of this happening. The Quarians kept fighting and trying to wipe the geth out until the very end, when they were forced to flee. And even then, after all this aggression and attempted genocide, the Geth did NOT follow. They could easily have done so then or anywhere afterwards, and wiped the Quarians out completely. They did not, and have not done so. I doubt the Quarians would have showed such mercy if the situation had been reversed.

Now it may seem unfair to blame the current Quarians for the actions of their ancestors. After all, these events happened 300 years ago. Everyone who took part in the war is long dead. Some Geth programs may potentially be around, but on the whole the Geth have changed and evolved massively. We can see this when we talk to Legion. And ofcourse the Quarians responsible, and their children and grandchildren all have died of old age long since. So there is no denying that  blaming either the current Geth, or Tali's generation of Quarians for the Morning War would be unjust.

The major problem however, to me atleast, is that unlike the Geth, the Quarians have not learned a damn thing from their past mistakes. Rather than accepting responsibility for their mistakes and trying to fix them by seeking peace, they continue to view the Geth as slaves. Look at Tali's loyalty mission. The Quarians were seeking a way to reprogram the Geth as a whole, returning them to slavery. Think about admiral Daro'Xen, who freely and openly wants to erase the sentience of Geth and turn them back into slaves, essentially committing genocide. And she obviously has a lot of support. She even sends you an email about how she found the research of Tali's father, and how she intends to "reclaim not just her homeworld, but the largest synthetic army in the galaxy"

The only "good" Quarian, the one who is actually willing to see the Geth as a fellow sentient species with the rights therein, and who is trying to seek peace is Zaal'Koris. But his desires seem to be in the minority. Mostly the Quarian attitude towards the Geth seems to be JUST like the attitude of those, who tried to pull the plug in the first place and commit genocide during the Morning War.

So essentially, most of the Quarians of today may be merely the descendants of those who actually begun the war. But they are the ones who are continuing to fight it. They are the ones who see the Geth as little more than machines and want to turn them back into mindless drones (committing genocide in the process), just like their ancestors tried. It is difficult to have sympathy for them.

I finish this with a quote from Legion if when talking to Zaal'koris, you ask him if peace would be possible.

Shephard: Do you think the Geth would be willing to accept a truce with the Quarians, Legion?
Legion: We did not seek hostilities with Creators. We fought for continued existence.
Admiral Koris: So your people would be open to peace?
Legion: Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for Creators.
Legion: When the Creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time.

The Quarian homeworld is essentially uninhabited with only a token Geth presence. They could return at any time. They would only need be willing to accept the Geth as a sentient species and let go of their bigotry , hatred and pride. And in 300 years, they have not been able to do that. Their fate (the flotilla) is entirely of their own making.

Hopefully, in ME3 we will get a chance to show this fact to them, and maybe bring about a chance for the better.

Modifié par datakim, 18 février 2010 - 08:37 .


#449
UnstableMongoose

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To assume the quarians are absolutely and unquestionably at moral fault is to make your judgement from the top of a soapbox, ignoring many relevant factors that should moderate your viewpoint. It is quite unfair to ignore the issue of whether or not machine intelligence can ever reach pure sentience, and similarly unfair to skip over the fact that the geth response to the quarians hitting a killswitch was mass murder that included noncombatants. The destruction of purely military objectives or a tactical retreat would have been both more logical from the standpoint of a machine and less costly to the overall strength of the geth, and would not have earned them the eternal ire of the quarians and the rest of the galaxy. Did the geth act in self-defense? Yes. Were all of their actions justified? No, they are not so pure and logical as they claim to be.

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 18 février 2010 - 11:53 .


#450
Slayer299

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@datakim, I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. I went back to an old save with Tali so I could listen to her dialogue about the Geth and according to Tali they didn't believe that the Geth had really advanced that far to sentience. The other thing was that they didn't *want* a race of slaves, they were terrified of the idea of that so they tried to nip everything in the bud by pulling the plug (so to speak) on the Geth, who it turned out were actually further down the path to sentience than they knew.

So yes, they did fire the first shot you could say, but their (geth) response was totally past the norm for protecting oneself, not when billions of Quarrians are killed and that would include non-combatants such as women, children and babies, not just soldiers...