549 réponses à ce sujet

[datakim]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

To assume the quarians are absolutely and unquestionably at moral fault is to make your judgement from the top of a soapbox, ignoring many relevant factors that should moderate your viewpoint. It is quite unfair to ignore the issue of whether or not machine intelligence can ever reach pure sentience, and similarly unfair to skip over the fact that the geth response to the quarians hitting a killswitch was mass murder that included noncombatants. The destruction of purely military objectives or a tactical retreat would have been both more logical from the standpoint of a machine and less costly to the overall strength of the geth, and would not have earned them the eternal ire of the quarians and the rest of the galaxy. Did the geth act in self-defense? Yes. Were all of their actions justified? No, they are not so pure and logical as they claim to be.

It is utterly irrelevant if a machine in the real world can reach a level of sentience. I personally don't see any reason why it could not happen, but I am not an expert so I won't try to debate that.  The ME world is a fictional world however and we KNOW that it happened. Just like we know that in ME there are biotics which is something not present in the real world. Therefore the Quarians were trying to commit genocide of a sentient species. It is that simple. Whether something like that could happen in the real world is meaningless for this discussion.

Now it is true that the Geth possibly did kill noncombatants (though to be fair we don't actually know this for a fact), but I would argue that the Quarians did too, and more so. Not all the Geth were heavyduty combat vehicles. Infact, given that they were primarily meant for labor, you could argue that ALL Geth were non-combatants when the Quarians initiated the conflict. Given that the Geth were essentially children (figuratively speaking) , how could they be blamed for simply repeating to the Quarians, what the Quarians taught them to do by doing it to the Geth first.

Neither side is ever truly 100% innocent in any war. But we can see who is MORE to blame for what happened. Who started it. Who escalated the conflict. Who made peace impossible. And so on. And the answer to those questions are the Quarians. They started the fight. They kept fighting. And even now, 300 years later, they are still trying to enslave and destroy the Geth. For them, nothing has changed. They have not learned anything.


As for your suggestions of Geth retreating and such. How do we know they could have? I mean it is quite reasonable to me that the Geth at the time did not possess a vast fleet of ships that they could all use to fly away. If withdrawal of all Geth was an option, they likely would have done just that. Legion certainly supports the idea that the Geth would rather avoid conflict by leaving Organic habitats (the dyson sphere). But they were a labor force, mostly doing farming and other unpleasant work. How should they have retreated?

So with retreat not an option. And with the Quarians constantly attacking them, what were they supposed to do? Just stand there and let the Quarians wipe them out? Besides, how do you know that the Geth did not primarily destroy military objectives. As has been suggested, the casualties on the Quarian side could very well be primarily caused by loss of their workforce and the resulting resource shortage, rather than military action by the Geth. Why waste Geth resources on attacking places that pose no threat to their existence as a species, when they could use those same resources to attack places of strategic military importance.

I am not saying that the Geth are fluffy bunnies who never hurt anyone. But they are ultimately the wronged party here. They were attacked first, and I doubt very much that the Quarians wondered if the Geth they were killing were non-combatants. The Quarians started it, they could have sought peace at any time by explaining their irrational actions and offering guarantees of safety. Legion says they did not want to fight. They just wanted to live. To exist. They never wanted the war.

This means that the Quarians could have sought peace at any time during the conflict and the Geth would have accepted. The Quarians did not. Instead they chose to fight to the very end, never stopping in their quest to eradicate the Geth. And the same behavioural pattern continues at the current time. Legion and the True Geth are willing to co-exist with everyone, while the Quarians are still planning on wiping the Geth out. Legion even admits in his discussions that they made mistakes, despite the fact that HIS species was violated. Why cannot the Quarians as a whole do the same.

[Basher of Glory]

As an exception I quote myself, because since some pages the discussion doesn't progress any further.
I suggest to build up on already posted arguments instead of reinventing the wheel over and over again.


PAGE 2 of the thread:

[quote]Baher of Glory wrote...

There are so many things, we don't know about.

My guess is, that the "early" Geth were all connected to a giant network, which was also used by the Quarrians. Thus, the Quarrians could not simply shut down the "Geth-mainframe", they also would have shut down their entire planet, because anything was connected to that network.
Shutting this down would have destroyed their civilization as it would destroy ours, if someone shuts down all computers on our world.

The "early" Geth started to be sapient and were self-aware, perhaps compareable with a three years old kid. Due to their connection to the Quarrian network, their hivemind would have known all thinkable facts, but they lacked the necessary degree of maturity to really understand their knowledge.

The Quarrians panicked and "striked first", without any doubt. They shut down lots of Geth and this was considered "aggressive" by the hivemind, as it is considered "agressive" by a three years old kid when Mummy says "you must go to bed now".

In the hivemind a new thought was established:"We exist. We are. Cogito ergo sum! Because I AM, I have the right to exist. I must defend my existence."
Thus, the Geth started - devoid of passion - their countermeasures. Now the Quarrians panicked even more and escalated the "war": First they just tried to "shut down" the platforms, but now they involved the military and started to destroy every platform on sight. The Geth learnt and they learnt quickly. They took over the entire planetwide network, cut the Quarrians off and incapacitated everything which was necessary to keep up Quarrian cilvilization:
Clinics, public administration, fire departments and of course the most of Quarrian armed forces.
Now it's easy to understand, how the Geth could wipe out "billions" of Quarrians. The Geth had now everything and the Quarrians were "switched back" to stone age.

In Geth's understanding the Quarrians were the "creators", thus any Quarrian was now an enemy.
There was no "young" and "old", "male or female", "armed" or "defenseless", there was just "enemy". I can imagine that the Geth tried to eradicate the enemies by all available means, but - as mentioned before - devoid of passion.

With our ethics we consider this as "crime against ... Quarrianity (?)" but with Geth ethics it was nothing else but 1+1=2, a logical conclusion.

When the remaining Quarrian finally fled their homeworld, the threat was over and the Geth remained on this planet. Listen To Ashley and Kaidan on Eden Prime: "The Geth? They weren't seen for centuries!"
We know now, that the majority of the Geth was still on the Quarrian's former homeworld, we know about the "heretics" etc. etc.

In the meantime the Geth's hivemind developped to adulthood, perhaps realizing that the countermesures against their creator's threat was also nothing but an overreaction. The adult hivemind also realized the Reapers as universal threat and calculated the chances. The result was "we need allies".

Therefore the Geth created the "Legion software", installed it onto a platform and sent it out to look for Shepard-Commander.

For me there is not the least doubt that Legion would have been sent out anyway sooner or later to convey the message to all other races: "We are Geth. We are not hostile." Under the pressure of events this happened now.

The Geth are innocent.


[/quote]

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 19 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[didymos1120]

And also, for you adamant anti-Quarians: it's quite simply stupid to blame every Quarian alive back then.  Their leaders chose to deactivate the Geth.  Even if those few people absolutely knew, for certain, that the Geth were basically all sapient at that point, saying "Quarians fault, period" is still nonsense.  It would be those specific Quarians fault.  And, fact is, as all the evidence we have shows, and as has been repeated ad nauseum (though apparently to little effect, but, hey, what the hell, it's worth yet another shot): The. Quarians. Did. Not. Know. At. The. Time.  Not the vast, blissfully ignorant majority and not the people in charge, either.

Modifié par didymos1120, 19 février 2010 - 02:27 .

[datakim]

Slayer299 wrote...

@datakim, I'm not sure I understand your thinking here. I went back to an old save with Tali so I could listen to her dialogue about the Geth and according to Tali they didn't believe that the Geth had really advanced that far to sentience. The other thing was that they didn't *want* a race of slaves, they were terrified of the idea of that so they tried to nip everything in the bud by pulling the plug (so to speak) on the Geth, who it turned out were actually further down the path to sentience than they knew.

First of all. We know that the Geth were a very advanced form of networked intelligence (VI at first I think). When something like that starts asking questions like: "Do I have a soul", you have very little excuse in not considering the possibility that the Geth may have become sentient. Tali herself admits that they were skirting the edges of AI research laws. The possibility  had to have been considered.

The fact that the Quarians did not intend for this to happen does not excuse things in my mind. It did, and the Quarians have to be judged on how they reacted. They reacted poorly in attempting to extinguish this newly formed life. And they continued to react poorly. And they are STILL doing it, even in the current generation 300 years later.

As for not wanting a race of slaves. They could have accepted that the Geth had become sentient and released them from said slavery. Instead they tried to wipe their slaves out entirely. I don't consider genocide of all slaves an acceptable way of eliminating the institution of slavery.

So yes, they did fire the first shot you could say, but their (geth) response was totally past the norm for protecting oneself, not when billions of Quarrians are killed and that would include non-combatants such as women, children and babies, not just soldiers...

The way you try to portray events here suggest that the Quarians overreacted, and then the Geth started a brutal massacre of the innocent and helpless Quarians who just wanted to live in peace and harmony. I don't buy that. Legion says that the Geth did not want a conflict. He says they only fought for continued existence. He says that the Quarians have always(100%) attacked the Geth and tried to kill them when they thought victory was possible. If the True Geth have remained in isolation, where does Legion get this idea? The only possibility I can see is that during the Morning War, the Quarians were constantly aggressive. This suggests continued and repeated genocide attempts from the Quarians, beyond their first mistake.

Even if you could somehow excuse the Quarian initial reaction of trying to kill the Geth, their reaction to that action would surely have demonstrated to the Quarians how far they had evolved. I seem to recall that even Tali admits that at this point the Quarians realised that they had created a true sentient species.

So why is it that the Quarians did not seek peace at this point? If they had, and the Geth had chosen to continue their aggression I would agree that the Geth would be (almost) equally to blame. But if Legion is to be believed, this is not the case. The Geth would have been willing to co-exist with the Quarians in peace so long as their continued existence was guaranteed. Based on his words, it was the Quarians who escalated the conflict and kept on fighting and trying to kill all Geth.

Given their current attitudes such as still wanting to enslave the Geth to their will, and use them. I cannot help but suspect that the Quarians were more concerned with regaining control of their primary workforce which they must have greatly depended on and forcing them back to slavery. And concerned with hiding what had happened from the citadel races who would surely have reacted poorly to their AI-research. They wanted to wipe the newly sentient Geth out quickly before anyone discovered what had happened. And probably quickly replace them with a more primitive non-sentient models to keep farming and mining and cleaning up waste and such. The Geth just happened to be a bit too powerfull and the Quarians lost.

And before anyone says, I know that Legion could be lying. If he is then viewpoint is naturally all wrong. However we have no other available source for what happened back then, so for the moment I am assuming that Legion is being truthfull in his words. Perhaps in ME3 Bioware will tell us that Legion was deceiving and manipulating us, and that the Quarians desperately tried to surrender while the Geth were brutally murdering them. But somehow I doubt that.

If Legion is being truthfull, then the Quarians started the fight. And they continued it past all reason never trying to seek peace until ultimately the Geth managed to repel them and force them into a retreat. Remember that once the Quarians left, the Geth did not seek to follow even though they surely could have. If the Geth were these horrible monsters intent on murdering as many innocent Quarians as possible, why is it that the Quarians are still around? Or do you suggest that the Geth could not have followed the Quarians and finished wiping them out? The Geth let the Quarians leave, and did not eliminate them, because THEY never wanted to eradicate an entire species.

Modifié par datakim, 19 février 2010 - 02:47 .

[UnstableMongoose]

datakim wrote...

*see the top of this page, I'm not quoting a wall of text that long*

I was not implying that the debate over whether or not true AI is a real-world possibility has any sway over the rich fantasy world that Bioware has created.  I was merely stating the very significant possibility that AIs in the game are merely MISTAKEN to be sentient because they approximate emotion in a manner that organics associate with. The actual status of geth sentience is something that could be very different from what those in the game believe. That the quarians would have enough pride in their tech to assume they had created a sentient race when they, in fact, had not is quite plausible.

You have a habit of taking everything the geth say at face value. Yes, the quarians have committed some pretty serious errors in their dealings with the geth, but just because the geth were the wronged party once upon a time should not immediately secure your pity and trust for the geth after 300 years. The problem with the theory that there is some body of geth that wants to cooperate with anyone and are nice guys flies in the face of the fact that the geth haven't abandoned the quarian homeworld for some quiet and resource-rich sector of darkspace yet. The quarians' continued mistrust of the geth is perfectly justified, because the geth have never done anything outwardly that proves that the attitudes they claim to hold are legitimate. Legion's story may be true given the inherent hostility that quarians hold, but it's not trustworthy enough to let the fate of the galaxy rest on.

There is a much larger problem with the heretic issue. We are to believe that they simply let half their race walk off and serve the Reapers? First off, that's a two-bit sob story that anyone who has been monitoring communications like the geth has knows would sucker in a Paragon Shepard (worked quite well for Elnora). Secondly, the Reapers wish to exterminate and enslave all life. That means that if the schism occurred according to the terms that Legion stated, or if one occurred at all to begin with, the "true" geth simply let the greatest threat to everything that they hold dear walk out the door to serve their most dangerous and implacable enemy and harbor no antagonism for them whatsoever. That's too much of a stretch. While there may indeed be some hint of truth to what Legion says, and he may be part of a faction of more benevolent geth, the story he spins regarding the schism clashes with what we know of the geth regarding cold logic.

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 19 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[datakim]

didymos1120 wrote...

And also, for you adamant anti-Quarians: it's quite simply stupid to blame every Quarian alive back then.  Their leaders chose to deactivate the Geth.  Even if those few people absolutely knew, for certain, that the Geth were basically all sapient at that point, saying "Quarians fault, period" is still nonsense.  It would be those specific Quarians fault.  And, fact is, as all the evidence we have shows, and as has been repeated ad nauseum (though apparently to little effect, but, hey, what the hell, it's worth yet another shot): The. Quarians. Did. Not. Know. At. The. Time.  Not the vast, blissfully ignorant majority and not the people in charge, either.

Yes and no.

It is true that the initial decision was likely made by the leaders, and blaming all Quarians for this action might be unfair. Though assuming that their goverment was democratically elected, there might be some truth to that.

However, regardless of that, the Geth reaction surely demonstrated to everyone what had happened. The Geth were clearly far more sentient than first believed and wanted to live. Wanted to survive! Did the Quarian population at this point rise up and demand that their leaders seek peace with the wronged Geth? Did they want to co-exist in peace with the Geth? Or did they fully support their leaders continued attempts at genocide and mobilise for brutal and long war? We know the answer.

"They did not know". That excuse might work for their first actions(barely). But when the Geth reacted with sentience and desire for life, why did the Quarians CONTINUE their attempts at genocide? Why did they not seek peace? At this point, the "we did not know" excuse no longer works. By then, they DID know. But they kept at it. Legion says that the Geth would have been willing to co-exist. He says they never wanted a war. The Quarians were apparently not so willing.

And they paid for that. But apparently learned little since they are still at it. Still trying to enslave an entire species who only wants to live in peace. Still being violently aggressive and planning on starting a war. Just like always.

[mintek]

They let the heretic go because they are the same. Legions tell you they understood the heretic reasoning, they just didnt agree that it was right. Even when tali and legion fight for the omitool scaning speech, legion is the rational one. If you side with tali, Legion says he understand why tali is doing this and let it go. Tali shoot the roof and is completly pissed off at you. The geth seems to be focused alot on actualy understanding people reasoning before acting.

[Vaenier]

Both sides screwed up. Quarians shot first for no reason. Geth overdid it with the retaliation. The best thing to do is have bother sides just shake hands and forget it.

[datakim]

UnstableMongoose wrote...
I was not implying that the debate over whether or not true AI is a real-world possibility has any sway over the rich fantasy world that Bioware has created.  I was merely stating the very significant possibility that AIs in the game are merely MISTAKEN to be sentient because they approximate emotion in a manner that organics associate with. The actual status of geth sentience is something that could be very different from what those in the game believe. That the quarians would have enough pride in their tech to assume they had created a sentient race when they, in fact, had not is quite plausible.

Is it possible that the Geth are not sentient at all, and that all their (and Legions) actions and reactions are simply non-sentient simulations of sentience? It is certainly _possible_.

Is it possible that inside their suits, the Quarians are a complex set of machines controlled by an intelligent spacehamsters that control the movements of the Quarian-machinebody from a complex control panels located inside the machine-Quarians stomach? It is certainly _possible_.

However I would need pretty damn convincing evidence to counter everything we have seen to the contrary, before I accepted the Quarian-hamster theory. The same applies to Geth sentience. We can say just about anything is possible. I can say that the Quarians are not sentient, and that what we perceive as sentient behaviour are simply non-sentient reactions inside the biological machines that are the Quarian brains and I could be just as true as you might be about the Geth.

Until Bioware gives us evidence to the contrary, I am proceeding on the assumption that true AI is possible and happening inside their ME universe. And that the Geth are indeed a real example of this. That means that the Geth are as sentient and alive as the Quarians, and equally deserving of survival and existence.

You have a habit of taking everything the geth say at face value. Yes, the quarians have committed some pretty serious errors in their dealings with the geth, but just because the geth were the wronged party once upon a time should not immediately secure your pity and trust for the geth after 300 years. The problem with the theory that there is some body of geth that wants to cooperate with anyone and are nice guys flies in the face of the fact that the geth haven't abandoned the quarian homeworld for some quiet and resource-rich sector of darkspace yet. The quarians' continued mistrust of the geth is perfectly justified, because the geth have never done anything outwardly that proves that the attitudes they claim to hold are legitimate. Legion's story may be true given the inherent hostility that quarians hold, but it's not trustworthy enough to let the fate of the galaxy rest on.

And like I said earlier, it could be that Legion is a clever manipulator who is deceiving us. Perhaps in ME3, we will learn this when Legion betrays Shephard and leads the full Geth armada to attack the citadel races in support of the Reapers. However right now, I have no reason to believe this. There is no real proof to suggest that. If ME3 supplies that proof, I will naturally change my mind.

But what if that does not happen? What if after ME3, we learn that everything Legion said to us was indeed completely true? What then? For the sake of argument, let us ASSUME that this has happened? How will you view the Quarians then?

As for the Quarian Homeworld, Legion does claim that they HAVE abandoned it. He says that most Geth live in space in stations similar to the one in the loyalty mission, and that they have only a token presence in the Quarian Homeworld, performing maintenance and such. If true, the Quarians could return home at any time. Perhaps this will happen in ME3. We shall see.

There is a much larger problem with the heretic issue. We are to believe that they simply let half their race walk off and serve the Reapers? First off, that's a two-bit sob story that anyone who has been monitoring communications like the geth has knows would sucker in a Paragon Shepard (worked quite well for Elnora). Secondly, the Reapers wish to exterminate and enslave all life. That means that if the schism occurred according to the terms that Legion stated, or if one occurred at all to begin with, the "true" geth simply let the greatest threat to everything that they hold dear walk out the door to serve their most dangerous and implacable enemy and harbor no antagonism for them whatsoever. That's too much of a stretch. While there may indeed be some hint of truth to what Legion says, and he may be part of a faction of more benevolent geth, the story he spins regarding the schism clashes with what we know of the geth regarding cold logic.

I think the amount was far less than half of their species. I seem to recall seeing 5% somewhere? Did I imagine that or can someone confirm?

As for why the Geth let it happen, it could very well be that they did not manage to reach a consensus about what to do about it in time. Or it could be that they did not want to attack their own kind. Or any number of reasons. Maybe the Geth acted like the Council is acting and stuck their heads into sand and hoped the problem would simply go away.

Foolish perhaps, but then foolishness is something that all species seem to have in common to some extent in ME. This does not automatically make Legion a liar, or his words about the Morning War untrue.

The simple fact is that the amount of information we have for the Quarian/Geth conflict comes from very limited set sources. Legion is the major one. We have no other sources available unless a Bioware writer comes to the scene and clearly states the truth in ME-world. I choose to accept the information given to us, until I receive something that proves it false. What else is there to do at this point? Other than wait for ME3 ofcourse.

[datakim]

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides screwed up. Quarians shot first for no reason. Geth overdid it with the retaliation. The best thing to do is have bother sides just shake hands and forget it.

This is probably something that will happen in ME3.

Though even here the problem is that the Quarians don't seem willing to forget. They are developing weapons and planning another war as we learn in Tali's loyalty mission. And they are trying to develop a virus that can brainwash the Geth into loyal servants.

Legion's Geth on the other hand are very much open to peace. All they want is proof that the Quarians are indeed honest about their intentions. Given that the Quarians are developing mind-control viruses, and that they have apparently attacked the Geth 100% of the time when they have had the chance, this does not seem an unreasonable demand to me.

The current attitudes of Quarians are actually a part of the reason why I side with the Geth. The Quarians are like reapers, trying to indoctrinate the Geth and remove their free will and turn them into slaves. How can anyone support that? And how can we blame the Geth for being cautious about the Quarians, when we SEE that their caution is very much warranted?

In ME3, in order to achieve peace, we will probably have to thwart the Quarian mind-control efforts and kill the female admiral and put the Qwib-Qwib guy in charge, and then somehow convince the Geth that the Quarians won't try to enslave or kill them all this time.

[Yakko77]

From the Quarian POV, they feel justified.  They created the Geth to fill a role but they adapted and evolved which caused the Quarians to panic and do something terrible.  The Geth (if one accepts that synthetic life is actually "life")  on the other hand took their survival to an extreme and not only defeated the Quarians but drove them off their worlds and nearly wiped them out.  Had the Geth simply defeated the Quarians and moved away perhaps instead of occupying the Quarian worlds......

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.



think about it

[The Lord of Space]

datakim wrote...
I think the amount was far less than half of their species. I seem to recall seeing 5% somewhere? Did I imagine that or can someone confirm?

Yes it was 5% or less, certainly not half.

[this isnt my name]

Madecologist wrote...

Here is the thing... the Geth... don't really need the Quarian homeworld. Once they fought to survive and the Quarians left. They could have packed bags and find a dark corner to hide in. One, they are patient (the Heretics are the ones that are not), so it is not like rebuilding an infrastructure elsewhere will bother them. Two, they are not even using the Quarian Homeworld, they are just like... parked there building their superhub. If they are not using the planet, they could have just easily moved elsewhere and did it there, and who cares if it would take longer (see point 1). To be fair how much longer, not like they are using the Quarian Homeworld's infrastructure or resources. Lastly, because they are there it stops the Quarian from coming back without a conflict. If they just left, the Quarians could eventually go back (after they realize the Geth are gone).
If you look at it, the Geth are terrible, they are like big space bullies. It is not even like they are using it. A perfectly good planet is wasted and the Quarians are stuck in space. I am sure this sets the stage for some uber Paragon resolution of the Quarians coming home if they can make peace with the Geth. But aside from that, they are just blocking it really.
I am not saying I am not sympathetic to the Geth plight, though their Morning War was a war of self-defense. Plus the Quarians are still keen on kicking them one day. They are not exactly angels either. I think Bioware ment it that way.

The geth however are looking after the world, and are probobally hopeing that the quarians will return peacefully, the geth are shown to be religios in ME1, the quarians are the closest things the geth have to Gods, so they probobally have some respect for them. Geth seem to want to co-exist organics dont want to, the geth are correct, and I have in all ME playthroughs been against what the quarians did. But both species need to learn to co-exist, if the quarians cant let go of their hate, they dont deserve their homeworld back, its as simple as that. Hell I bet if they co-exited with them the geth could make it much easier for them to get out of those enviro suits and back into their natural environment. How are the get the bully all they did was defend themselves.

[Akrylik]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.

think about it

This

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides screwed up. Quarians shot first for no reason. Geth overdid it with the retaliation. The best thing to do is have bother sides just shake hands and forget it.

I found one of Legion's lines on the thought of peace interesting, it was something like:

"Whenever the creators have believed the odds of victory were high, creators have attacked 100% of the time."

This implies that not only did the Quarians shoot first, they kept on shooting even when the Geth stopped. Whenever the Geth held back, the Quarians went on the offensive, so the Geth got sick of it and booted them the hell out entirely. At least, that's my take on it.

[reepneep]

One common thread I'm seeing from the quarrian apologists is that the Geth 'went too far'. That they could have, you know, stopped killing quarrians even though the quarrians were still shooting at them.



Armed conflicts only end when both parties agree to end them. The very idea of 'defeat' implies one side recognizing their struggle as hopeless or not worth the cost and giving up. As long as one wants to keep fighting, the other has to reciprocate or be annihilated. The quarrians refused to sue for peace forcing the geth's hand. They kept fighting until it became obvious they couldn't win, then they fled and the geth gave no pursuit. The quarrians could have had peace anytime they wanted, all they had to do was stop shooting.



The quarrian's stubborn pride created the geth, caused and perpetuated the morning war, exiled them from their homeworld and nearly doomed them to extinction. They still pursue their vendetta even hundreds of years later. Reminds me of Icarus, actually.

[Moleculor]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more.

Actually, from what I understand of what I discussed with Legion, the Geth have a core, underlying, driving purpose:

Care for the Quarian Homeworld.

EVERYTHING they've ever done can be traced back to that singular purpose.

The Geth were originally designed as VI or sub-VI assistants. They were networked together to increase efficiency. One geth's purpose became both geth's purposes. Both geth's purposes became all the Geth's purposes. BAMF, they're sentient.

But their underlying purpose is still the same. Clean the bookshelves. Maintain the dockyards. Stock the shelves.

The problem is, once they became self-aware, that purpose became muddled with awareness. Questions.

The Quarians attempted to shut down the geth to isolate and diagnose the problem. Unfortunately, a shutdown would interfere with their purpose, and thus they stopped the Quarians. And since everything was networked together, one Quarian became the same as any other, and so they all were deemed threats to the homeworld.

The Geth still maintain the homeworld. Still care for it. And now that they're smarter, more aware, etc, would willingly allow the Quarians back onto the planet if they would do so without interfering with the Geth.

This is also why the Geth are a threat to the Reapers. The Reapers would attack and harm the homeworld, as well as the Quarians. The Geth do not wish for this to occur. Thus, the Reapers are as much a threat as the Quarians who were attempting to shut down the Geth were.

[Basher of Glory]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.

think about it

Perhaps more like

"the British are the Quarrians and the Geth are all the people living in their colonies" ?

Nice analogy anyway

[Abirn]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

To assume the quarians are absolutely and unquestionably at moral fault is to make your judgement from the top of a soapbox, ignoring many relevant factors that should moderate your viewpoint. It is quite unfair to ignore the issue of whether or not machine intelligence can ever reach pure sentience, and similarly unfair to skip over the fact that the geth response to the quarians hitting a killswitch was mass murder that included noncombatants. The destruction of purely military objectives or a tactical retreat would have been both more logical from the standpoint of a machine and less costly to the overall strength of the geth, and would not have earned them the eternal ire of the quarians and the rest of the galaxy. Did the geth act in self-defense? Yes. Were all of their actions justified? No, they are not so pure and logical as they claim to be.

All is fair in war.  When you try and "turn off" an entire race of machines then they have the right and the duty to fight back using whatever means necessary to secure peace for their race.  

[UnstableMongoose]

Abirn wrote...

All is fair in war.  When you try and "turn off" an entire race of machines then they have the right and the duty to fight back using whatever means necessary to secure peace for their race.  

The same defense could be used to justify anything on the quarian side as well. I don't think the quarians are right, I just happen to think people have acquired a very naive view of the geth as some sort of horribly wronged underdogs when they are a ruthless race of quite destructive and manipulative machines. Sure, they may not be openly violent at the moment. But blindly siding with the geth against the quarians as if it's some sort of easily rectified moral situation isn't a safe decision in a galaxy under the gun from a Reaper threat. After the events of Mass Effect I, it will take far more than the words of an ambassador sent by the geth to convince me that the geth aren't out to stick it to Organics at the side of the Reapers. I don't doubt the possibility of Legion's claims, I merely choose not to acknowledge their validity until he is willing to provide me with more incontrovertible evidence. Mere words and a vocal recording of unverified origin are not enough proof that the geth want to hold hands, sing kumbaya, and kill Reapers rather than enslave and destroy all organic life.

[Basher of Glory]

UnstableMongoose wrote...
...
After the events of Mass Effect I, it will take far more than the words of an ambassador sent by the geth to convince me that the geth aren't out to stick it to Organics at the side of the Reapers. I don't doubt the possibility of Legion's claims, I merely choose not to acknowledge their validity until he is willing to provide me with more incontrovertible evidence. Mere words and a vocal recording of unverified origin are not enough proof that the geth want to hold hands, sing kumbaya, and kill Reapers rather than enslave and destroy all organic life.

But isn't that "metathinking", knowing that there will be a sequel soon, which will reveal all yet hidden for us?

The question for me is
"how would I handle the situation with the knowledge I already have"

For the answer there are just two options available:
1) Open the airlock and send legion into the void
2) Trust Legion for the moment by accepting the risk to be manipulated

With the knowledge I already have, I'd know, that option 1) would mean, that there will be probably never again the chance to achieve the trust of the Geth, to mediate a truce / piece between them and the Quarrians and that I'd loose a potential ally against the upcomming battle versus the reapers.

Thus, option 2) would be the only valid choice for me. If I trust legion, I'd acknowledge his arguendo, which would lead me to acknowledge also the Quarrian's guilt.

Fact is, I MUST decide and every descision bears a certain risk.

Side-note: 
To hand Legion over to  Cerberus is NO valid option for me, because I don't trust them due to my former experiences (ME 1).

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 19 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[didymos1120]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.

think about it

OK.  Done.  Consensus says:  bad analogy.  I'm pretty sure the Colonials didn't kill almost all of the British.  Or take over Britain itself.