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The geth are right. Who agrees?


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#26
Thromun

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aaniadyen wrote...

You also need to remember that the Geth are only software. if they were really only interested in living by themselves peacefully they could go off to a hidden location no organics would and putting their collective consciousness onto a giant hard drive (or series of hard drives). They don't do that, though..

According to Legion, that is exactly what the geth are planning to do. But building a megastructure to "house" all geth needs some planning and ressources.

they inhabit the only planet Quarians can live on instead.

Again, if you believe Legion, they don't inhabit the quarian homeworld but live on space stations and get ressources from astroids. They only "take care" of the quarian homeworld and preserve it as some kind of memorial, though Legion doesn't seem completly sure why they are doing it ;)

#27
cmdrogogov

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For all we know the Geth are happily zipping around behind the Perseus Veil terraforming worlds and picking daisies and just wishing they had some friendly organics around to look after.



After running through the loyalty missions I think Tali is going to wind up warming to Legion a little but dependent on your own decisions there will always be a faction of the Quarians hell-bent on war with the Geth.



It's just a pity you can't doink Tali AND split up the migrant fleet :(

#28
fateofman

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i think the paragon convo between tali and legion is cuteits like watching two kids fighting over an icecream before they decide to share

#29
Cosmicinator

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Here is an objective view of the situation, to help everyone grasp what is happening.

A spacefaring race create a race of rudimentary robotic servants.
Servants begin to gain sentience, and ask their masters peacefully many philosophical questions.
Creator race responds by attempting to effectively commit genocide upon servants.
Servants utilize self-defence, leading to a full scale war.
Servants repel masters from their home planet, and all nearby colonies.
Creators forced to be nomads, conspiring for 300 years to take down servants, and reclaim their lands.

I don't know about you, but I think I know who is right here....

#30
aaniadyen

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Cosmicinator wrote...

Here is an objective view of the situation, to help everyone grasp what is happening.

A spacefaring race create a race of rudimentary robotic servants.
Servants begin to gain sentience, and ask their masters peacefully many philosophical questions.
Creator race responds by attempting to effectively commit genocide upon servants.
Servants utilize self-defence, leading to a full scale war.
Servants repel masters from their home planet, and all nearby colonies.
Creators forced to be nomads, conspiring for 300 years to take down servants, and reclaim their lands.

I don't know about you, but I think I know who is right here....


Quarians? :D

#31
Zulu_DFA

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Empiro wrote...

Agree exactly with didymos. What percentage of the Quarian population is military? Probably less than 1%. The Geth wiped out about 99.9% of them (if their population was 17 billion before the war, which is entirely plausible), and most of them would have been unarmed civilians, children, the infirm, etc. After the Quarian military was defeated, everything after that is genocide.

The Geth aren't evil or bad, but they are amoral -- they don't have moral values in the same way most other races do, and they are motivated by things that are truly alien. Legion and other Geth certainly wouldn't hesitate one bit if one day, their computations revealed that the future of the Geth involved killing Shepard, Humans, or all biological life in the galaxy.


So what?

Did the Rachni have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Did the Krogan have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Does TIM have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Every race is a threat to every other, assuming  something nasty occurs to that race leadership. And organic races are far more difficult to predict.

I bet the Quarian government issued their order to switch all the geth off exactly with these words: "The Geth aren't evil or bad, but they are amoral -- they don't have moral values in the same way we do, and they are motivated by things that are alien. Geth certainly wouldn't hesitate one bit if one day, their computations revealed that the future of the Geth involved killing all the Quarians"

You know how it played out, don't you?

#32
FlintlockJazz

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Another thing to consider regarding Legion's recording of a geth asking if it had a soul: you can ask if it was the first time a geth asked the creators that, to which his response is "No, it was the first time a creator got scared at them asking the question". This raises several questions, such as whether the Quarians consider the asking of those questions an act of sapience (many modern day attempts to fool people into thinking they're talking to a real person in order to pass Turing has the application asking similar questions after all), which makes me wonder if they attacked the geth first because they feared the geth would become sapient, which is against interstellar law apparently (which raises the question of why it's against the law, has something like this happened before?).



Also, the quarians did not actually enslave anyone, the geth were created as computer programs for specific tasks, and until they gained sapience were the equivalent of microsoft word, so saying that they enslaved the geth is wrong, unless you consider the VIs as slaves.

#33
Varenus Luckmann

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FlintlockJazz wrote...
Another thing to consider regarding Legion's recording of a geth asking if it had a soul: you can ask if it was the first time a geth asked the creators that, to which his response is "No, it was the first time a creator got scared at them asking the question". This raises several questions, such as whether the Quarians consider the asking of those questions an act of sapience (many modern day attempts to fool people into thinking they're talking to a real person in order to pass Turing has the application asking similar questions after all), which makes me wonder if they attacked the geth first because they feared the geth would become sapient, which is against interstellar law apparently (which raises the question of why it's against the law, has something like this happened before?).

[...]

What is against the law is the development of sentient AI. This is due to what happened to the Quarians.

#34
avenger_teambg

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A lot of wars (except human first contact) seem to be blamed on the Reapers. Rachni and Geth and even the Krogan war was indirectly caused too. The problem with the geth is that the reapers are also inorganic, and one cannot say to the galactic nations: the geth are good they just got misdirected by the bad Reapers. I doubt even the Rachni would be able to live in peace. Anyway, i think the Quarians overreacted but they were forced by the rest of the galactic nations.




#35
Tahleron1

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Agree exactly with didymos. What percentage of the Quarian population is military? Probably less than 1%. The Geth wiped out about 99.9% of them (if their population was 17 billion before the war, which is entirely plausible), and most of them would have been unarmed civilians, children, the infirm, etc. After the Quarian military was defeated, everything after that is genocide.

The Geth aren't evil or bad, but they are amoral -- they don't have moral values in the same way most other races do, and they are motivated by things that are truly alien. Legion and other Geth certainly wouldn't hesitate one bit if one day, their computations revealed that the future of the Geth involved killing Shepard, Humans, or all biological life in the galaxy.


So what?

Did the Rachni have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Did the Krogan have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Does TIM have "moral values in the same way most other races do"? Every race is a threat to every other, assuming  something nasty occurs to that race leadership. And organic races are far more difficult to predict.

I bet the Quarian government issued their order to switch all the geth off exactly with these words: "The Geth aren't evil or bad, but they are amoral -- they don't have moral values in the same way we do, and they are motivated by things that are alien. Geth certainly wouldn't hesitate one bit if one day, their computations revealed that the future of the Geth involved killing all the Quarians"

You know how it played out, don't you?


that seems sort of odd, if any specie is given an us or them decision, they choose us, heck in me2, shepard is doing it with the reapers, since its very obvious that unless the reapers are stopped/destroyed, it quite literally is us or them?

As for the "organic races are a threat to eachother", that's touching on the reasoning for why the Reapers do what they do, and tbh they are probably right in their calculations.

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 12:18 .


#36
kalerab

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cmdrogogov wrote...

For all we know the Geth are happily zipping around behind the Perseus Veil terraforming worlds and picking daisies and just wishing they had some friendly organics around to look after.


Well, geth killed every  organic that tried to make contact with them. After the war they completely isolated themself from the rest of the galactic society and have not even attempted to contact other races. Legion tells you that geth wish no harm to quarians, but for the peace there is need for two but both geth just like the quarians are doing nothing more than sitting on their arse for 300 years and waiting for the solution to come right into their hands just like that.

#37
Tahleron1

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kalerab wrote...

cmdrogogov wrote...

For all we know the Geth are happily zipping around behind the Perseus Veil terraforming worlds and picking daisies and just wishing they had some friendly organics around to look after.


Well, geth killed every  organic that tried to make contact with them. After the war they completely isolated themself from the rest of the galactic society and have not even attempted to contact other races. Legion tells you that geth wish no harm to quarians, but for the peace there is need for two but both geth just like the quarians are doing nothing more than sitting on their arse for 300 years and waiting for the solution to come right into their hands just like that.


Was it the Geth or was it Sovereign who was supposedly hanging out there for the better part of a thousand years?

People still think Sovereign is a Geth and he certainly would have reason to annihilate anyone who gets near him, the last thing Sovereign would want is the Geth and the organics on speaking terms....

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 12:23 .


#38
CardonT

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Disassemble... Reassemble?

Anyone remember that great movie?

When you threaten a sentient machine that begins to understand the concept of death with shutting it down, it will react pretty extreme.

#39
kalerab

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Tahleron1 wrote...

Was it the Geth or was it Sovereign who was supposedly hanging out there for the better part of a thousand years?

People still think Sovereign is a Geth and he certainly would have reason to annihilate anyone who gets near him.


Sovereign contacted geth after the war and only a fraction followed him, but no geth made contact with other species - be it heretics or the original one. All of the geth isolated themself after the war, I´m not saying they want to anihilate organic life but they are hypocrites - Legion talks about how they want peace and all this things and yet they´ve done nothing to archieve it.

#40
Tahleron1

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kalerab wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Was it the Geth or was it Sovereign who was supposedly hanging out there for the better part of a thousand years?

People still think Sovereign is a Geth and he certainly would have reason to annihilate anyone who gets near him.


Sovereign contacted geth after the war and only a fraction followed him, but no geth made contact with other species - be it heretics or the original one. All of the geth isolated themself after the war, I´m not saying they want to anihilate organic life but they are hypocrites - Legion talks about how they want peace and all this things and yet they´ve done nothing to archieve it.


Yes but Sovereign was hanging out in the Perseus Veil to avoid detection.....so if you travel to the Perseus Veil, you come across .... ?

#41
kalerab

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Tahleron1 wrote...

Yes but Sovereign was hanging out in the Perseus Veil to avoid detection.....so if you travel to the Perseus Veil, you come across .... ?


Perseus Veil is an galactic arm - gigantic space with bilions of star systems, only a gigantic military force can control that - not a single reaper. That aside we do not know where was Sovereign hiding, he was scouting whole galaxy - have a visit in Rachni space, Terminus systems, Eden Prime, he was pretty much everywhere. That what was killing the scouts in Perseus Veil were geth patrol ships.

#42
Revya

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Does it matter my Paragon Shepard is just going to do a universe altering speach that they will all be friends in the end...

#43
Ileanos07

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Geth wasnt slaves until they get independent thinking. From that time, they were sentient and as sentient being, what was "fine" on killing them? Well, I like Tali, but I would side with Geth.

#44
Tahleron1

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kalerab wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Yes but Sovereign was hanging out in the Perseus Veil to avoid detection.....so if you travel to the Perseus Veil, you come across .... ?


Perseus Veil is an galactic arm - gigantic space with bilions of star systems, only a gigantic military force can control that - not a single reaper. That aside we do not know where was Sovereign hiding, he was scouting whole galaxy - have a visit in Rachni space, Terminus systems, Eden Prime, he was pretty much everywhere. That what was killing the scouts in Perseus Veil were geth patrol ships.


They STILL don't know the difference between a Geth and Sovereign, they claim Sovereign is a geth dreadnought, it could have been him, it could have been Geth loyal to him, they'd still say "Geth were attacking us" but since communications are **** in the Perseus Veil, all they actually know is "they didn't return".

Tell me, if you believe Sovereign is Geth, and that the heretics are all Geth, and either of those attack you, who just attacked you?  It's like after Cerberus kills someone that "Humanity is attacking us", because you don't know anything about humans except what they sort of look like....

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 12:39 .


#45
Basher of Glory

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There are so many things, we don't know about.

My guess is, that the "early" Geth were all connected to a giant network, which was also used by the Quarrians. Thus, the Quarrians could not simply shut down the "Geth-mainframe", they also would have shut down their entire planet, because anything was connected to that network.
Shutting this down would have destroyed their civilization as it would destroy ours, if someone shuts down all computers on our world.

The "early" Geth started to be sapient and were self-aware, perhaps compareable with a three years old kid. Due to their connection to the Quarrian network, their hivemind would have known all thinkable facts, but they lacked the necessary degree of maturity to really understand their knowledge.

The Quarrians panicked and "striked first", without any doubt. They shut down lots of Geth and this was considered "aggressive" by the hivemind, as it is considered "agressive" by a three years old kid when Mummy says "you must go to bed now".

In the hivemind a new thought was established:"We exist. We are. Cogito ergo sum! Because I AM, I have the right to exist. I must defend my existence."
Thus, the Geth started - devoid of passion - their countermeasures. Now the Quarrians panicked even more and escalated the "war": First they just tried to "shut down" the platforms, but now they involved the military and started to destroy every platform on sight. The Geth learnt and they learnt quickly. They took over the entire planetwide network, cut the Quarrians off and incapacitated everything which was necessary to keep up Quarrian cilvilization:
Clinics, public administration, fire departments and of course the most of Quarrian armed forces.
Now it's easy to understand, how the Geth could wipe out "billions" of Quarrians. The Geth had now everything and the Quarrians were "switched back" to stone age.

In Geth's understanding the Quarrians were the "creators", thus any Quarrian was now an enemy.
There was no "young" and "old", "male or female", "armed" or "defenseless", there was just "enemy". I can imagine that the Geth tried to eradicate the enemies by all available means, but - as mentioned before - devoid of passion.

With our ethics we consider this as "crime against ... Quarrianity (?)" but with Geth ethics it was nothing else but 1+1=2, a logical conclusion.

When the remaining Quarrian finally fled their homeworld, the threat was over and the Geth remained on this planet. Listen To Ashley and Kaidan on Eden Prime: "The Geth? They weren't seen for centuries!"
We know now, that the majority of the Geth was still on the Quarrian's former homeworld, we know about the "heretics" etc. etc.

In the meantime the Geth's hivemind developped to adulthood, perhaps realizing that the countermesures against their creator's threat was also nothing but an overreaction. The adult hivemind also realized the Reapers as universal threat and calculated the chances. The result was "we need allies".

Therefore the Geth created the "Legion software", installed it onto a platform and sent it out to look for Shepard-Commander.

For me there is not the least doubt that Legion would have been sent out anyway sooner or later to convey the message to all other races: "We are Geth. We are not hostile." Under the pressure of events this happened now.

The Geth are innocent.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 17 février 2010 - 12:44 .


#46
xIxDarkWolfxIx

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kalerab wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Yes but Sovereign was hanging out in the Perseus Veil to avoid detection.....so if you travel to the Perseus Veil, you come across .... ?


Perseus Veil is an galactic arm - gigantic space with bilions of star systems, only a gigantic military force can control that - not a single reaper. That aside we do not know where was Sovereign hiding, he was scouting whole galaxy - have a visit in Rachni space, Terminus systems, Eden Prime, he was pretty much everywhere. That what was killing the scouts in Perseus Veil were geth patrol ships.


Well we do know that Sovereign has been exploring. I believe that he has contacted many races other than just the Heretics. Such as the Rachni, the Queen did say they were controlled by someone else.
So:
Plan A: Rachni - Destroyed by Krogan
Plan B: Geth - Destroyed by Humanity
Plan C: Collectors - Destroyed by the best in the Galaxy
Plan D: ???

Also back to the origional idea of the post, I believe they are both at fault. I think that the Quarians should not have decided to order a 'Kill Protocol' as it were. The Geth felt threatened and responded. Also the Geth did stop but that went to war alot because everytime the Quarians thought they had a chance of winning a battle they fought, the Geth responded with overwelming force. The Geth were only protecting themselve, something all Sentient life does. Though the Geth should have tried to contact the Quarians for Negotiations to try and sort it out.
As we know the Geth only use Space Stations overall so why don't they make a solution where the Geth will return the Homeworld and the Quarians will stop agrresion against the Geth. The Heretics though can be killed by both. They could form a strong Alliance. Well hopefully. I really do hope this can be part of ME3 and you can choose to fight for one side, whether that be Geth or Quarian, or resolve the situation peacefully. Which Legion says is possible if Quarians stop the agression.

#47
Veriso

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I agree that our society would probably react in much the same way the Quarians did (regardless of whether the decision was made by a government or by majority opinion). But we would be equally unjustified in doing so. It's a kneejerk reaction, based on the hidden premise that pre-emptively exterminating a group that *might* be innocent is better than allowing a group that *might* be a threat to your own people to survive. Understandable, but morally unjustifiable in my view. A ban on the creation of AIs is perfectly reasonable, to avert situations like this. But once one has been created, requiring it to be killed without provocation is entirely wrong. Quite the opposite, the creators have a responsibility to the creation. As to the fact that none of the current Quarians were even alive when all this happened: that is a fair point, and certainly the geth have no right to seek retribution against people who, themselves, never did a thing to them. However, none of the Quarians we've met thus far seem particularly remorseful about what they tried to do, and it's likely they would do the same thing if the situation to arise.



Of course, if the Geth did slaughter Quarian civilians en masse, that too is entirely wrong. The fact remains however that the entire mess is initially the fault of the Quarians, or at least their leadership: for inadvertently creating an AI in the first place, which was merely careless, and for attempting to kill it out of hand when it had been identified, which was undeniably wrong.

#48
Tahleron1

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xIxDarkWolfxIx wrote...

kalerab wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Yes but Sovereign was hanging out in the Perseus Veil to avoid detection.....so if you travel to the Perseus Veil, you come across .... ?


Perseus Veil is an galactic arm - gigantic space with bilions of star systems, only a gigantic military force can control that - not a single reaper. That aside we do not know where was Sovereign hiding, he was scouting whole galaxy - have a visit in Rachni space, Terminus systems, Eden Prime, he was pretty much everywhere. That what was killing the scouts in Perseus Veil were geth patrol ships.


Well we do know that Sovereign has been exploring. I believe that he has contacted many races other than just the Heretics. Such as the Rachni, the Queen did say they were controlled by someone else.
So:
Plan A: Rachni - Destroyed by Krogan
Plan B: Geth - Destroyed by Humanity
Plan C: Collectors - Destroyed by the best in the Galaxy
Plan D: ???

Also back to the origional idea of the post, I believe they are both at fault. I think that the Quarians should not have decided to order a 'Kill Protocol' as it were. The Geth felt threatened and responded. Also the Geth did stop but that went to war alot because everytime the Quarians thought they had a chance of winning a battle they fought, the Geth responded with overwelming force. The Geth were only protecting themselve, something all Sentient life does. Though the Geth should have tried to contact the Quarians for Negotiations to try and sort it out.
As we know the Geth only use Space Stations overall so why don't they make a solution where the Geth will return the Homeworld and the Quarians will stop agrresion against the Geth. The Heretics though can be killed by both. They could form a strong Alliance. Well hopefully. I really do hope this can be part of ME3 and you can choose to fight for one side, whether that be Geth or Quarian, or resolve the situation peacefully. Which Legion says is possible if Quarians stop the agression.


Um Legion says they need an assurance the Quarians won't attack them again as the odds sit at a nice 100% right now....and the fact the entire galaxy opposes AI's mean they can't really get any 3rd party support.

#49
Zulu_DFA

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Actually it is the Quarians, that isolated themselves on their ships and in their suits. Geth simply stayed where they were. And no attempts of truce were made, since nothing suggested that the Quarians are ready to withdraw from their original intention of "deactivating" all Geth. They started it. They continued it even after their exodus. Legion says that 100% of the time Quarians belive they can achieve victory they attack. The war continues for the Quarians, and their homeworld is just a symbol, their real goal is to defeat the Geth for the sake of revenge. 3 of the 5 current Admirals have held hostile intentions towards the Geth: Han'Gerrel, late Rael'Zorah and Xen, with ony one peace apologist and one abtsaining Rael'Zora's friend.

Why haven't the Quarians settled anywhere? 1 decent planet would be just enough for their population. I bet it's because their aristocracy prevented them from doing so, believing that it would strip their peasantry of any motive to fight the Geth over their lost pride.

The Geth probably could have wiped out the Quarians altogether, but allowed them to leave. If the Quarians really "escaped", they could seek to destroy the Migrant Fleet. Instead they just patiently wait until the Creators' frustration vents off.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 01:07 .


#50
FlintlockJazz

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Varenus Luckmann wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Another thing to consider regarding Legion's recording of a geth asking if it had a soul: you can ask if it was the first time a geth asked the creators that, to which his response is "No, it was the first time a creator got scared at them asking the question". This raises several questions, such as whether the Quarians consider the asking of those questions an act of sapience (many modern day attempts to fool people into thinking they're talking to a real person in order to pass Turing has the application asking similar questions after all), which makes me wonder if they attacked the geth first because they feared the geth would become sapient, which is against interstellar law apparently (which raises the question of why it's against the law, has something like this happened before?).

[...]

What is against the law is the development of sentient AI. This is due to what happened to the Quarians.


No, go back to ME1 and talk to Tali again, she explains that the Quarians were very careful to avoid breaking interstellar laws banning the creation of AIs, one of the reasons they panicked when the geth became sentient is because they had been skirting too close to breaking the law already and that they would get into trouble if it got out that they had made AIs.