549 réponses à ce sujet

[Akinra]

Baher of Glory wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...
...
After the events of Mass Effect I, it will take far more than the words of an ambassador sent by the geth to convince me that the geth aren't out to stick it to Organics at the side of the Reapers. I don't doubt the possibility of Legion's claims, I merely choose not to acknowledge their validity until he is willing to provide me with more incontrovertible evidence. Mere words and a vocal recording of unverified origin are not enough proof that the geth want to hold hands, sing kumbaya, and kill Reapers rather than enslave and destroy all organic life.

But isn't that "metathinking", knowing that there will be a sequel soon, which will reveal all yet hidden for us?

The question for me is
"how would I handle the situation with the knowledge I already have"

For the answer there are just two options available:
1) Open the airlock and send legion into the void
2) Trust Legion for the moment by accepting the risk to be manipulated

With the knowledge I already have, I'd know, that option 1) would mean, that there will be probably never again the chance to achieve the trust of the Geth, to mediate a truce / piece between them and the Quarrians and that I'd loose a potential ally against the upcomming battle versus the reapers.

Thus, option 2) would be the only valid choice for me. If I trust legion, I'd acknowledge his arguendo, which would lead me to acknowledge also the Quarrian's guilt.

Fact is, I MUST decide and every descision bears a certain risk.

Side-note: 
To hand Legion over to  Cerberus is NO valid option for me, because I don't trust them due to my former experiences (ME 1).

For now we have no other choice but to trust Legion and believe he's telling the truth. So I wouldd agree that your option 2 is the only logical choice, which as you say does paint the quarians in a poor light. I would also agree giving Legion to Cerberus is a no no.

And providing Legion is being honest (which I believe he his), for me it means the other only logical choice in ME3 is for the quarians to accept peace with geth (providing you can convince them). Because, 1) it would mean the quarians sharing a fair load of the blame for the Morning War and 2) every body/ship will be needed to defeat the Reapers.

[JackDresden]

After ME1 it seemed obvious to me that all the Geth did was defend themselves when the attained sentience and the Quarian immediatley tried to genocide them. I've always though the Geth got a bum wrap from organics.



Love the way they are developing the Geth.

[FlintlockJazz]

[quote]Baher of Glory wrote...

As an exception I quote myself, because since some pages the discussion doesn't progress any further.
I suggest to build up on already posted arguments instead of reinventing the wheel over and over again.


PAGE 2 of the thread:

[quote]Baher of Glory wrote...

There are so many things, we don't know about.

My guess is, that the "early" Geth were all connected to a giant network, which was also used by the Quarrians. Thus, the Quarrians could not simply shut down the "Geth-mainframe", they also would have shut down their entire planet, because anything was connected to that network.
Shutting this down would have destroyed their civilization as it would destroy ours, if someone shuts down all computers on our world.

The "early" Geth started to be sapient and were self-aware, perhaps compareable with a three years old kid. Due to their connection to the Quarrian network, their hivemind would have known all thinkable facts, but they lacked the necessary degree of maturity to really understand their knowledge.

The Quarrians panicked and "striked first", without any doubt. They shut down lots of Geth and this was considered "aggressive" by the hivemind, as it is considered "agressive" by a three years old kid when Mummy says "you must go to bed now".

In the hivemind a new thought was established:"We exist. We are. Cogito ergo sum! Because I AM, I have the right to exist. I must defend my existence."
Thus, the Geth started - devoid of passion - their countermeasures. Now the Quarrians panicked even more and escalated the "war": First they just tried to "shut down" the platforms, but now they involved the military and started to destroy every platform on sight. The Geth learnt and they learnt quickly. They took over the entire planetwide network, cut the Quarrians off and incapacitated everything which was necessary to keep up Quarrian cilvilization:
Clinics, public administration, fire departments and of course the most of Quarrian armed forces.
Now it's easy to understand, how the Geth could wipe out "billions" of Quarrians. The Geth had now everything and the Quarrians were "switched back" to stone age.

In Geth's understanding the Quarrians were the "creators", thus any Quarrian was now an enemy.
There was no "young" and "old", "male or female", "armed" or "defenseless", there was just "enemy". I can imagine that the Geth tried to eradicate the enemies by all available means, but - as mentioned before - devoid of passion.

With our ethics we consider this as "crime against ... Quarrianity (?)" but with Geth ethics it was nothing else but 1+1=2, a logical conclusion.

When the remaining Quarrian finally fled their homeworld, the threat was over and the Geth remained on this planet. Listen To Ashley and Kaidan on Eden Prime: "The Geth? They weren't seen for centuries!"
We know now, that the majority of the Geth was still on the Quarrian's former homeworld, we know about the "heretics" etc. etc.

In the meantime the Geth's hivemind developped to adulthood, perhaps realizing that the countermesures against their creator's threat was also nothing but an overreaction. The adult hivemind also realized the Reapers as universal threat and calculated the chances. The result was "we need allies".

Therefore the Geth created the "Legion software", installed it onto a platform and sent it out to look for Shepard-Commander.

For me there is not the least doubt that Legion would have been sent out anyway sooner or later to convey the message to all other races: "We are Geth. We are not hostile." Under the pressure of events this happened now.

The Geth are innocent.


[/quote]
[/quote]

Alot of presumption there, also if that is true then logically terrorists, serial killers and rapists are all innocent too as in their logic they are right.

Anyway, if that is true, that the geth were acting logically, then logically the Quarians were right to try and kill them.  The Quarian attack was based on premise that a logically thinking machine race would kill them, so if the geth were indeed just acting logically then they would indeed have killed off their creator race regardless and so the quarians were right to get there first.  Of course, that presumes that geth only act logically and rationally, which we have seen is not necessarily the case as Legion wears Shepard's armour without any logical reason that it can explain, and the geth keep the homeworld as a sort of morbid memorial/graveyard, but then if that's true then your argument is flawed deeply.

So in short, everyone should just accept that both sides messed up and that playing the blame game is falling into the same trap the Quarians and the Geth have fallen into.

[Basher of Glory]

FlintlockJazz wrote...


Alot of presumption there, also if that is true then logically terrorists, serial killers and rapists are all innocent too as in their logic they are right.

As long as the victims CREATED the terrorists, serial killers and rapists, programmed them and learnt them to do simple work and all the sudden these creations became sapient and sentient, then - but only then - you might compare them to the Geth.
So watch out for the current AI-researchers...
:PB)



Side-note:

I believe it was Mark Twain, who said (analogously)
"In nothing a human is more creative as for the justification of his actions"

What a human does or does not is IN HIS / HER OPINION ALWAYS right.
Thus, the criminals you named, are certainly thinking that they are right.

[UnstableMongoose]

The ultimate fact of the matter is that significant proof should be required to convince a logical person of Legion's claims regarding the geth. I he is truthful, or this is just another insidious Reaper plot playing on Shepard's tendency to see the best in people, I'm sure we will learn the truth of the matter in Mass Effect 3. I think such value judgments are best reserved until we have information and not just conjecture.

[The Angry One]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

The ultimate fact of the matter is that significant proof should be required to convince a logical person of Legion's claims regarding the geth. I he is truthful, or this is just another insidious Reaper plot playing on Shepard's tendency to see the best in people, I'm sure we will learn the truth of the matter in Mass Effect 3. I think such value judgments are best reserved until we have information and not just conjecture.

Legion has no reason to lie. If he truly was working for the Reapers then he could've let you die on the derelict Reaper.
Legion is fairly blunt anyway, I don't think he's even capable of lying. When Tali catches him scanning her omnitool he is completely open about his reason:, he needs to transmit the info about the Quarian attack plans to the Geth.

[ian528]

I  would say that the Geth are the more injured party here.  Everything in the game points to this.  It also points to the fact that the Geth are evolving and a species in their own right.  That the only Geth ever seen who is not attacking Sheppard or organics is Legion is difficult to believe if the majority of Geth believe as he does.  
The Quarians made a poor judgement but it was completely consistent with the overarching societal standards displayed.  AI systems are not allowed due to the feeling they will turn on organic life.  It is as if there is some deep racial memory of the reapers beyond what should be expected.  It may also be some piece left by the Reapers to stop competition from developing.

That all being said Quarians need to move on and find a new planet to live on.  The introduction of Legion should possibly suggest that peace is a possibility in the future.  It would be an excellent source of future Mass Effect games having Tali and Legion work to resolve the conflict.  This would also be completely outside of main line Mass Effect.

ME is a huge universe of potential.  If all the games are as consistently as good, I am interested in exploring more of this universe. 

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

didymos1120 wrote...
I'm pretty sure the Colonials didn't kill almost all of the British.  Or take over Britain itself.

All of the British that was on their colonies, yes.

And no they didn't go the extra line of taking over Britain but they sure did take over their colonies.. made a country and everything.

ya' know... might want to read that history book sometime.

Point is, you could argue that the Ameicans "took it too far" with their guerilla warfare, killing British soldiers on Christmas, but hey it was a war or independence. The Geth were on a war of survival and the Quarians wouldn't relent until they were finally kicked off of their homeworld.

If the Geth wanted to wipe out the Quarian fleet, they could. Especially seeing as the Council doesn't protect the Quarian people.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 19 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[Abirn]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Alot of presumption there, also if that is true then logically terrorists, serial killers and rapists are all innocent too as in their logic they are right.

terrorist and serioualkillers/rapists are two different categories,  the latter being black and white morality.
But the definition of what a terrorist is, tends to be based on what perspective you look at it from.

For example.  The founding fathers.  In America we consider them heros fighting for whats right,  But back in the day in Britian they would have been considered traitors.

[CmdrFenix83]

datakim wrote...

Yes and no.

It is true that the initial decision was likely made by the leaders, and blaming all Quarians for this action might be unfair. Though assuming that their goverment was democratically elected, there might be some truth to that.

However, regardless of that, the Geth reaction surely demonstrated to everyone what had happened. The Geth were clearly far more sentient than first believed and wanted to live. Wanted to survive! Did the Quarian population at this point rise up and demand that their leaders seek peace with the wronged Geth? Did they want to co-exist in peace with the Geth? Or did they fully support their leaders continued attempts at genocide and mobilise for brutal and long war? We know the answer.

"They did not know". That excuse might work for their first actions(barely). But when the Geth reacted with sentience and desire for life, why did the Quarians CONTINUE their attempts at genocide? Why did they not seek peace? At this point, the "we did not know" excuse no longer works. By then, they DID know. But they kept at it. Legion says that the Geth would have been willing to co-exist. He says they never wanted a war. The Quarians were apparently not so willing.

And they paid for that. But apparently learned little since they are still at it. Still trying to enslave an entire species who only wants to live in peace. Still being violently aggressive and planning on starting a war. Just like always.

This is the point I have to contend.  After the leaders issued the shut down order and the Geth began to retaliate, we(as the players) do not know how it went down. 

We don't know if the Geth themselves, after defending the initial attacks on them, decided that the Creator threat was too great and deemed extermination was necessary.  Following would be a brutally efficient slaughter of the Quarian people by the Geth.  Peace attempts would be futile, as they were already deemed a target to be eliminated, Terminator-style. 

On the other hand, we don't know if the Geth defeated those that attempted to shut them down, and then after seeing the Geth sapience, the Quarians still declared a full-out war that resulted in a total war of desperation for the Geth, resulting in a WWII Japanese level of determination from the Quarians in a never-say-die attitude.

You simply do not have the information necessary to determine which scenerio was the one that resulted.  I believe the first scenerio was what happened.  The Geth do not know pity, Legion's own words, and it's probable that the Geth came to the logical conclusion that the Creators as a whole were a threat that needed to be eliminated.  After the Quarians fled the Persius Veil, the Geth logically concluded that the threat was eliminated and deemed pursuit unnecessary.

[JMA22TB]

I knew the geth would be more than they seemed in ME1. The way Tali explained their origins hinted at it, but ME2 cemented their identity.

They are Karl Marx's wet dream.

Pure socialism.

They exist solely to "build consensus" and build their own future. They do not want to destroy organic life. They observe and collect information, but if they wanted to invade they would.

They don't though, outside of the Heretics whom they disagree with in terms of slaughtering organics.

If the Citadel would accept them and adjust their views on AI, which could be a theme of ME3 since Shepard likely has to rally them to fight the Reapers, they could bring totally different views and technology to galactic society.

They are a sentient being, and aspire to complete unity. How is that not a good thing to add to the fold?

[CmdrFenix83]

datakim wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides screwed up. Quarians shot first for no reason. Geth overdid it with the retaliation. The best thing to do is have bother sides just shake hands and forget it.

This is probably something that will happen in ME3.

Though even here the problem is that the Quarians don't seem willing to forget. They are developing weapons and planning another war as we learn in Tali's loyalty mission. And they are trying to develop a virus that can brainwash the Geth into loyal servants.

Legion's Geth on the other hand are very much open to peace. All they want is proof that the Quarians are indeed honest about their intentions. Given that the Quarians are developing mind-control viruses, and that they have apparently attacked the Geth 100% of the time when they have had the chance, this does not seem an unreasonable demand to me.

The current attitudes of Quarians are actually a part of the reason why I side with the Geth. The Quarians are like reapers, trying to indoctrinate the Geth and remove their free will and turn them into slaves. How can anyone support that? And how can we blame the Geth for being cautious about the Quarians, when we SEE that their caution is very much warranted?

In ME3, in order to achieve peace, we will probably have to thwart the Quarian mind-control efforts and kill the female admiral and put the Qwib-Qwib guy in charge, and then somehow convince the Geth that the Quarians won't try to enslave or kill them all this time.

That's just flat out not true.  Not *all* Quarians want to brainwash the Geth.  Even Tali is completely appauled by Admiral Morrigan and her father's actions.  There are three camps within the Quarian people.  Xen's camp that the Geth should be brainwashed and returned to their servitude, Garrel's camp that want to retake their homeworld from the Geth, and Korris's camp that want to make peace with them and believe the Quarian people wronged them.

If you turn over the evidence of Raal'Zorah's actions, the Quarian fleet splinters into these three factions.  If you go with the paragon charm option in the trial, you get the option of promoting peace or war.  Shepard's actions are *very* important to the Quarian people as a whole for the war against Saren and the Geth.  This was made very clear in Ascention.  His words will carry a ton of weight with them. 

So no, not *all* Quarians are soulless monsters wanting to enslave a sentient race.  If you want to claim such, then it's *just* as logical to assume all Geth are ruthless killing machines that want to slaughter organics.  In both cases, they are the minority within their people.

[CmdrFenix83]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.

think about it

As an American myself, I am not a gorram machine.  Just like the German/Jewish analogy, this is just aweful.

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides screwed up. Quarians shot first for no reason. Geth overdid it with the retaliation. The best thing to do is have bother sides just shake hands and forget it.

I found one of Legion's lines on the thought of peace interesting, it was something like:

"Whenever the creators have believed the odds of victory were high, creators have attacked 100% of the time."

This implies that not only did the Quarians shoot first, they kept on shooting even when the Geth stopped. Whenever the Geth held back, the Quarians went on the offensive, so the Geth got sick of it and booted them the hell out entirely. At least, that's my take on it.

If you take it as that.  The Quarians may have only attacked once, as the Morning War suggests, and 1 out of 1 is 100%.

[CmdrFenix83]

reepneep wrote...

One common thread I'm seeing from the quarrian apologists is that the Geth 'went too far'. That they could have, you know, stopped killing quarrians even though the quarrians were still shooting at them.

Armed conflicts only end when both parties agree to end them. The very idea of 'defeat' implies one side recognizing their struggle as hopeless or not worth the cost and giving up. As long as one wants to keep fighting, the other has to reciprocate or be annihilated. The quarrians refused to sue for peace forcing the geth's hand. They kept fighting until it became obvious they couldn't win, then they fled and the geth gave no pursuit. The quarrians could have had peace anytime they wanted, all they had to do was stop shooting.

The quarrian's stubborn pride created the geth, caused and perpetuated the morning war, exiled them from their homeworld and nearly doomed them to extinction. They still pursue their vendetta even hundreds of years later. Reminds me of Icarus, actually.

What makes you think peace was even a possibility back then?  Legion even admits that the Geth went too far.  The Quarians, utterly defeated and humiliated, send an emmissary for peace.  The Geth shoots him on sight for being a Quarian.  This makes complete sense within the confines of what we know about the Morning War.

[Basher of Glory]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The Geth are the Americans and the Quarians are the British.

think about it

As an American myself, I am not a gorram machine.  Just like the German/Jewish analogy, this is just aweful.

I concur.
Neither race was "created" by another one.
Of course we could see anything as a parable to our real life, but I doubt that the BioWare writers intended this.

[datakim]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
This is the point I have to contend.  After the leaders issued the shut down order and the Geth began to retaliate, we(as the players) do not know how it went down. 

We don't know if the Geth themselves, after defending the initial attacks on them, decided that the Creator threat was too great and deemed extermination was necessary.  Following would be a brutally efficient slaughter of the Quarian people by the Geth.  Peace attempts would be futile, as they were already deemed a target to be eliminated, Terminator-style. 

If this were the case, why did the Geth let the Quarians leave? They could have entirely exterminated the Quarians back then. And they could do so now. The fact that the Quarians are still around tends to suggest that the Geth did NOT want to commit genocide. Once the Quarians ended the conflict by leaving, the Geth did not follow or otherwise seek to continue the war. This strongly speaks against the idea that the Geth were constantly the agressors and suggests Legion is being truthfull.

On the other hand, we don't know if the Geth defeated those that attempted to shut them down, and then after seeing the Geth sapience, the Quarians still declared a full-out war that resulted in a total war of desperation for the Geth, resulting in a WWII Japanese level of determination from the Quarians in a never-say-die attitude.

When we consider what happened, together with what Legion says, this option does seem to be the more likely one. Obviously our sources are limited to mostly Legion and Tali. However if you listen to everything Legion says, the Quarians do seem like the constant agressors. Have you seen all this dialog? It is all on youtube, both the Legion dialogs and bringing Legion to the Migrant Fleet scenes. Everyone should watch them, they are quite illuminating.

You simply do not have the information necessary to determine which scenerio was the one that resulted.  I believe the first scenerio was what happened.  The Geth do not know pity, Legion's own words, and it's probable that the Geth came to the logical conclusion that the Creators as a whole were a threat that needed to be eliminated.  After the Quarians fled the Persius Veil, the Geth logically concluded that the threat was eliminated and deemed pursuit unnecessary.

Huh? The Geth knew that the Quarians were NOT eliminated since they were obviously still around. As far as the Geth knew, the Quarians might colonize other worlds, rebuild their forces, and return to finish the goal of Gethocide. The Quarians were weak and fleeing so the purely logical act would have been to follow them while they were weak and exterminate them entirely, truly eliminating the threat forever.

[CmdrFenix83]

datakim wrote...

Huh? The Geth knew that the Quarians were NOT eliminated since they were obviously still around. As far as the Geth knew, the Quarians might colonize other worlds, rebuild their forces, and return to finish the goal of Gethocide. The Quarians were weak and fleeing so the purely logical act would have been to follow them while they were weak and exterminate them entirely, truly eliminating the threat forever.

Your points were all answered in posts above.

[Shizly]

It's simple to me: The geth are defending themselfs against the quarians. And the quarians used them as slaves, not as tools. I agree with the geth

[datakim]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
That's just flat out not true.  Not *all* Quarians want to brainwash the Geth.  Even Tali is completely appauled by Admiral Morrigan and her father's actions.  There are three camps within the Quarian people.  Xen's camp that the Geth should be brainwashed and returned to their servitude, Garrel's camp that want to retake their homeworld from the Geth, and Korris's camp that want to make peace with them and believe the Quarian people wronged them.

If you turn over the evidence of Raal'Zorah's actions, the Quarian fleet splinters into these three factions.  If you go with the paragon charm option in the trial, you get the option of promoting peace or war.  Shepard's actions are *very* important to the Quarian people as a whole for the war against Saren and the Geth.  This was made very clear in Ascention.  His words will carry a ton of weight with them. 

So no, not *all* Quarians are soulless monsters wanting to enslave a sentient race.  If you want to claim such, then it's *just* as logical to assume all Geth are ruthless killing machines that want to slaughter organics.  In both cases, they are the minority within their people.

I admit I have never given the evidence since it angers Tali. The impression I had was always that Korris's camp of peace and co-existence was a small minority amonst the Quarians and that the majority still desired some form of war, whether physical combat or the use of viruses. Maybe Korris has more support than I thought. If so hurrah for the good-Quarians! I hope we can support them in ME3 and whack the slaver-admiral.

However even then, the fact remains that a large group of Quarians still want to exterminate/enslave the Geth. The fact that everyone speaks of these options so openly suggests that it is commonly accepted. Even Tali seemed more concerned with the loss of reputation her father would suffer for resulting in the destruction of the ship, than the fact that her father was essentially researching the Geth version of biological warfare.

As Shephard says, what if we had discovered that Tali's father had been experimenting on human corpses in effort to develop a biological virus to turn all of humanity into indoctrinated slaves. Upon discovering this, would Tali have been absolutely horrified at the monster her father was, or would she have dismissed it the way she dismissed the Geth virus, and still have been more concerned with maintaing her fathers reputation even then.

The bottom line is that a very large amount of Quarians still want the Geth eliminated entirely, one way or the other. Given this, can the cautious attitude the Geth have truly be at fault? I don't think so.

[The Angry One]

ian528 wrote...

That the only Geth ever seen who is not attacking Sheppard or organics is Legion is difficult to believe if the majority of Geth believe as he does. 

Legion *is* all the Geth. If he believes it then they all do by consensus, the only time they don't (on what to do with the Heretics) he tells you.

[CmdrFenix83]

datakim wrote...
I admit I have never given the evidence since it angers Tali. The impression I had was always that Korris's camp of peace and co-existence was a small minority amonst the Quarians and that the majority still desired some form of war, whether physical combat or the use of viruses. Maybe Korris has more support than I thought. If so hurrah for the good-Quarians! I hope we can support them in ME3 and whack the slaver-admiral.

However even then, the fact remains that a large group of Quarians still want to exterminate/enslave the Geth. The fact that everyone speaks of these options so openly suggests that it is commonly accepted. Even Tali seemed more concerned with the loss of reputation her father would suffer for resulting in the destruction of the ship, than the fact that her father was essentially researching the Geth version of biological warfare.

As Shephard says, what if we had discovered that Tali's father had been experimenting on human corpses in effort to develop a biological virus to turn all of humanity into indoctrinated slaves. Upon discovering this, would Tali have been absolutely horrified at the monster her father was, or would she have dismissed it the way she dismissed the Geth virus, and still have been more concerned with maintaing her fathers reputation even then.

The bottom line is that a very large amount of Quarians still want the Geth eliminated entirely, one way or the other. Given this, can the cautious attitude the Geth have truly be at fault? I don't think so.

And I whole-heartedly understand the stance by Han'Garrel and Tali regarding their homeworld and the Geth.  Every encounter we've had with the Geth(Legion aside) has resulted in them throwing bullets at us, or butchering people on the Alorai(unless you honestly believe every Quarian on there was a combatant). 

Being raised in an environment that leaves you trapped inside of a bubble or environment suit, cramped, horrid conditions.  One hull breach could result in death at any moment.  Raised from birth to know that the reason you're living in this hell is because some machines your ancestors built became faulty.  Yes, faulty.  Sapience was *not* an intended function of the Geth, and there for it is a programming defect. 

If our computers gained sapience, and the result of trying to rectify the problem resulted in us living in the conditions the Quarians are in, I'm damned sure you wouldn't have grown up on that ship feeling sorry for the computers.  You would resent both them and your ancestors for living in this hell you're in. 

The Quarian hatred for the Geth is completely justified, as would any hatred for their ancestors from that time.

[datakim]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
If you take it as that.  The Quarians may have only attacked once, as the Morning War suggests, and 1 out of 1 is 100%.

Maybe, but thats not really how it sounds when Legion says it. And would the Admiral not call Legion on this if this were the case? He does not but rather admits that it would be hard for the Geth to support peace under those numbers, suggesting that the numbers are indeed very much accurate and valid. As an Admiral he would surely know. This implies that the Quarians were indeed the constant aggessors Legion implies.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
What makes you think peace was even a
possibility back then?  Legion even admits that the Geth went too far. 
The Quarians, utterly defeated and humiliated, send an emmissary for
peace.  The Geth shoots him on sight for being a Quarian.  This makes
complete sense within the confines of what we know about the Morning
War.

It would, if this was a battle in the medieval times. It is not. There are such things as radios and other devices which would allow the Quarians to contact the Geth remotely in order to call a truce and discuss peace. If the Quarians did this, and the Geth refused the communications in order to continue the fight when the Quarians wanted to stop, this would shift blame towars the Geth. However Legion strongly suggests that the Geth wanted to live in peace, and that it was the Quarians who kept shooting.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Your points were all answered in posts above.

Umm. Where?

Maybe I missed it, would you be willing to repeat yourself? If the Geth were the aggressors in the war, and wanted to eliminate the Quarians permanently in order to remove the threat to themselves, why did they let the Quarians leave and rebuild and once more become a threat, rather than doing the purely logical thing and following the Quarians in order to wipe them out, erasing all possibility of danger forever.

Tell me also this, what if the Quarians had won, and a small force of Geth had managed to flee the planet. Do you think the Quarians would have allowed the Geth to leave and survive to rebuild anew somewhere else, or do you think they would have followed the Geth to finish the genocide?

[CmdrFenix83]

datakim wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Your points were all answered in posts above.

Umm. Where?

Maybe I missed it, would you be willing to repeat yourself? If the Geth were the aggressors in the war, and wanted to eliminate the Quarians permanently in order to remove the threat to themselves, why did they let the Quarians leave and rebuild and once more become a threat, rather than doing the purely logical thing and following the Quarians in order to wipe them out, erasing all possibility of danger forever.

Tell me also this, what if the Quarians had won, and a small force of Geth had managed to flee the planet. Do you think the Quarians would have allowed the Geth to leave and survive to rebuild anew somewhere else, or do you think they would have followed the Geth to finish the genocide?

To repeat:  The Geth let the Quarians go, because beyond the Veil, they were no longer a threat.  This is why any organic entering the Veil has been killed.  They're deemed a threat.  Even with their massive fleet and 17million citizens, the Quarians are no threat to the Geth.  The Geth know this.  Even most of the Quarians understand they can't win in a frontline war.  Kal'Reegar confirms this.  This is why Admiral Xen and Zorah had taken the path of attempting a wide-scale viral attack.  It's feasibly the only way they can win. 

As far as letting the Geth go, no, the Quarians wouldn't have.  Quarians have emotion, and not pure logic.  They were terrified of the thought of sapient Geth.  Understandable, since even in our own society they try to beat the idea of sentient machine = extermination of humanity. 

I personally would have loved an option to rewrite that virus on Legion's mission to make all Geth believe that suicide was the right course of action.  My main Shepard(one out of my 7 playthroughs thus far) would gladly have used it.  To him, the Geth(just like the Rachni and Krogan) are simply too big of a threat to leave lying around, and such a weapon would have let him live on the Quarian homeworld with his beloved after the Reapers were dealt with.  Granted, the rest of my playthroughs are all promoting peace between the two, but I still would have loved the option to put this massive weapon to use against such an obvious threat.

[datakim]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
And I whole-heartedly understand the stance by Han'Garrel and Tali regarding their homeworld and the Geth.  Every encounter we've had with the Geth(Legion aside) has resulted in them throwing bullets at us, or butchering people on the Alorai(unless you honestly believe every Quarian on there was a combatant). 

Were those not the heretics? Legion has no problems fighting those Geth.

I suppose you could say that the Quarians have no knowledge of Heretics&Reapers though. This would make their views more understandable since they would have had no way of knowing that the Geth were open to peace, due to Sovereign messing about and ruining things. The Quarians did not have access to the information we do. Good point.

Being raised in an environment that leaves you trapped inside of a bubble or environment suit, cramped, horrid conditions.  One hull breach could result in death at any moment.  Raised from birth to know that the reason you're living in this hell is because some machines your ancestors built became faulty.  Yes, faulty.  Sapience was *not* an intended function of the Geth, and there for it is a programming defect. 

It may not be what they intended, but it is what happened. I simply don't care that the Quarians did not intend to create a new sentient species. They DID, and thats that. If you had a child, and he/she had a birth defect that you did not intend/want, would you decide that said child was "faulty" and just kill it? I would hope not. Not a perfect analogy I admit, but reasonably close. You have to live in the world that IS, not what you wanted it to be.

If our computers gained sapience, and the result of trying to rectify the problem resulted in us living in the conditions the Quarians are in, I'm damned sure you wouldn't have grown up on that ship feeling sorry for the computers.  You would resent both them and your ancestors for living in this hell you're in. 

Probably, but that would mean little. In such a situation I could easily be entirely wrong, as any neutral observer not clouded by emotions and hatred could tell.

The Quarian hatred for the Geth is completely justified, as would any hatred for their ancestors from that time.

Understandable yes, though I am less sure about justified since it was not the Geth who are responsible for their surroundings but rather their ancestors. Hatred at them for trying to commit genocide would indeed be justified.

Too bad this hatred is only making things worse and preventing them from improving their lot by seeking peace and co-existence with the Geth. Korris is doing that, and I suspect that thanks to him, the Quarians will finally be able to return home.