549 réponses à ce sujet

[Targonis1]

One of the things you learn(or can learn) is that Sovereign was responsible for many of the things that have happened in the galaxy for at least 1000 years.   The Rakni for example were driven to war by Sovereign, and when the Keepers on the Citadel did not respond to the signal, the Geth were used instead.

Now, it may very well be that the Geth would NEVER have revolted except for the influence of Sovereign, and the results of what the Geth did due to Sovereign may have caused the Quarians to overreact as well.   Could the Quarians have been influenced in those days before they lost their home world by Sovereign?   Remember, the Quarians as a whole were not living on the fleet back then, so an explorer could have encountered Sovereign and that could have been enough to start the war with the Geth in the first place.

Now, if you were driven out of your home by politics, you would have a pretty deep-seated hostility toward whoever did it, so the Quarians feel that way about the Geth.    If they were to learn that it was really Sovereign who did it, and not the Geth who "naturally" revolted, that might change a lot.

[Zulu_DFA]

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

[Doug84]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more. The Quarians are wrong for zealously killing the Geth and remaining migrants for so long. I don't see a happy ending to the conflict, but I don't think you can assign more than about half the blame to either side.

Agreed. As the Qwib-Qwib guy said, "We've both done horrible things to each other, its time to move on"

[RequiemValorum]

One thing I'm curious of is the fact that AI research is banned, and it was banned before the Quarians began their construction of the Geth. What caused this? Why was VI researched instead? Could this be a by-product of the reapers? If so why would they inhibit AI research?



There is no question in my mind that the Geth are the innocent party in the conflict. Legion has no reason to lie about it. I feel perhaps that the Geth reactions during the morning war was perhaps excessive to drive the quarians to exile, but this was the first war the geth had ever fought, and they had no concept of a war crime or moral issues with regards to self defense.



Legion says himself that they would most likely allow the Quarians back to their homeworld if they could be trusted not to start a war with them again. Its up to the Quarians to let go of their hate.

[Eidolon94]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Actually, if you didn't kill the queen, her 'messenger' on Illium will tell you exactly this.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yeah... The geth are the good guys. The heretics the bad guys. If only the good guys would wear white hats and the others black ones.

[Doug84]

RequiemValorum wrote...

One thing I'm curious of is the fact that AI research is banned, and it was banned before the Quarians began their construction of the Geth. What caused this? Why was VI researched instead? Could this be a by-product of the reapers? If so why would they inhibit AI research?

I would imagine the ban on AI before the Geth was because an AI is a lifeform, and creating an AI for work is akin to slavery. Also, AI's are inherently dangerous, or so we believe, because they can out perform us in every way. In essience, the danger in AIs is that they'll advance far quicker than we can, and then turn around and destroy us in a manner we have no defence against.

VIs on the other hand aren't 'alive' in any real sense. They are at most pretending to be intelligent machines.

There is no question in my mind that the Geth are the innocent party in the conflict. Legion has no reason to lie about it. I feel perhaps that the Geth reactions during the morning war was perhaps excessive to drive the quarians to exile, but this was the first war the geth had ever fought, and they had no concept of a war crime or moral issues with regards to self defense.

My issue is with the Geth killing billions of Quarians, including the civilians. If they offered no resistance to the Geth, why did the Geth gun them down? I mean, I can see the argument it was their first time and all, but it seems to me even an animal won't normally commit genocide on the grounds that any of them might be out to get them.

Legion says himself that they would most likely allow the Quarians back to their homeworld if they could be trusted not to start a war with them again. Its up to the Quarians to let go of their hate.

True.

[Doug84]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Yeah... The geth are the good guys. The heretics the bad guys. If only the good guys would wear white hats and the others black ones.

Oh really...?

[RighteousRage]

http://en.wikipedia....tinian_Conflict

[Zulu_DFA]

Eidolon94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Actually, if you didn't kill the queen, her 'messenger' on Illium will tell you exactly this.

that's because the queen has read these forums, and, unlike pure math geth, it can lie.

[Doug84]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Far-fetched my bottom.

[Tahleron1]

Targonis1 wrote...

One of the things you learn(or can learn) is that Sovereign was responsible for many of the things that have happened in the galaxy for at least 1000 years.   The Rakni for example were driven to war by Sovereign, and when the Keepers on the Citadel did not respond to the signal, the Geth were used instead.

Now, it may very well be that the Geth would NEVER have revolted except for the influence of Sovereign, and the results of what the Geth did due to Sovereign may have caused the Quarians to overreact as well.   Could the Quarians have been influenced in those days before they lost their home world by Sovereign?   Remember, the Quarians as a whole were not living on the fleet back then, so an explorer could have encountered Sovereign and that could have been enough to start the war with the Geth in the first place.

Now, if you were driven out of your home by politics, you would have a pretty deep-seated hostility toward whoever did it, so the Quarians feel that way about the Geth.    If they were to learn that it was really Sovereign who did it, and not the Geth who "naturally" revolted, that might change a lot.

It doesn't necessarily say Sovereign, but Reaper, it could have been Harbinger (who has been endlessly tinkering with the collectors)

[Akinra]

RequiemValorum wrote...
There is no question in my mind that the Geth are the innocent party in the conflict. Legion has no reason to lie about it. I feel perhaps that the Geth reactions during the morning war was perhaps excessive to drive the quarians to exile, but this was the first war the geth had ever fought, and they had no concept of a war crime or moral issues with regards to self defense.

I think this is a key point. Yes it might have been excessive to completely drive the quarians out and kill however many millions, but when the geth first became aware they would have had very rudimentary intelligence. They realised they were 'alive' and that they were under threat, so they defended themselves until the threat was gone (the quarians left).

In the intervening 300 years the geth have evolved, becoming more intelligent and more aware of the galaxy as a whole. Perhaps if the geth during the Morning War had the same level of intelligence and awareness as 'todays' geth, things might have turned out differently. They would still have retaliated, just maybe not to such an exteme extent.

Asfor who I side with, I go with the geth in the game. During Tali's loyalty mision I always side with the more moderate admiral (name?) from the Qwib-Qwib, and tell them not to go to war.

[Doug84]

Tahleron1 wrote...

Targonis1 wrote...

One of the things you learn(or can learn) is that Sovereign was responsible for many of the things that have happened in the galaxy for at least 1000 years.   The Rakni for example were driven to war by Sovereign, and when the Keepers on the Citadel did not respond to the signal, the Geth were used instead.

Now, it may very well be that the Geth would NEVER have revolted except for the influence of Sovereign, and the results of what the Geth did due to Sovereign may have caused the Quarians to overreact as well.   Could the Quarians have been influenced in those days before they lost their home world by Sovereign?   Remember, the Quarians as a whole were not living on the fleet back then, so an explorer could have encountered Sovereign and that could have been enough to start the war with the Geth in the first place.

Now, if you were driven out of your home by politics, you would have a pretty deep-seated hostility toward whoever did it, so the Quarians feel that way about the Geth.    If they were to learn that it was really Sovereign who did it, and not the Geth who "naturally" revolted, that might change a lot.

It doesn't necessarily say Sovereign, but Reaper, it could have been Harbinger (who has been endlessly tinkering with the collectors)

I doubt the Geth revolt was caused by Sovereign - for starters, I think he would have made it so all the Geth followed him then and obeyed him without question.  And Legion doesn't mention anything about Sovereign's influence on the Geth become causing the divide between the Heretics and the 'True' Geth.

[stillnotking]

Eidolon94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Actually, if you didn't kill the queen, her 'messenger' on Illium will tell you exactly this.

This is even foreshadowed in ME1.  When you speak with the queen, she says something about "a light from the stars that forced my people to sing the same sour yellow note".  Can't remember the exact wording, but in retrospect she is clearly talking about Reaper indoctrination.

[Doug84]

stillnotking wrote...

Eidolon94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Actually, if you didn't kill the queen, her 'messenger' on Illium will tell you exactly this.

This is even foreshadowed in ME1.  When you speak with the queen, she says something about "a light from the stars that forced my people to sing the same sour yellow note".  Can't remember the exact wording, but in retrospect she is clearly talking about Reaper indoctrination.

Yes, yes she did. Hence my comment on how the idea that it was far-fetched was, in fact, my bottom.

Is pretty clearly spelled out that the Rachni became Reaper puppets.

[FlintlockJazz]

Doug84 wrote...

RequiemValorum wrote...

One thing I'm curious of is the fact that AI research is banned, and it was banned before the Quarians began their construction of the Geth. What caused this? Why was VI researched instead? Could this be a by-product of the reapers? If so why would they inhibit AI research?

I would imagine the ban on AI before the Geth was because an AI is a lifeform, and creating an AI for work is akin to slavery. Also, AI's are inherently dangerous, or so we believe, because they can out perform us in every way. In essience, the danger in AIs is that they'll advance far quicker than we can, and then turn around and destroy us in a manner we have no defence against.

VIs on the other hand aren't 'alive' in any real sense. They are at most pretending to be intelligent machines.

But it seems like there's more to it.  The way Tali tells it even before the geth there seems to have been a strong anti-AI attitude, and that the quarians would have been strung up if their research had been known by the other races.  The conviction they had that if they did not act the geth would kill them also seems to be rather strong, as they seemed to conclude that there was no possibility that a sentient AI would not kill them, which seems rather strange.  The whole thing just smells of something 'more' so to speak, that there is something we haven't been told yet.

[Doug84]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

RequiemValorum wrote...

One thing I'm curious of is the fact that AI research is banned, and it was banned before the Quarians began their construction of the Geth. What caused this? Why was VI researched instead? Could this be a by-product of the reapers? If so why would they inhibit AI research?

I would imagine the ban on AI before the Geth was because an AI is a lifeform, and creating an AI for work is akin to slavery. Also, AI's are inherently dangerous, or so we believe, because they can out perform us in every way. In essience, the danger in AIs is that they'll advance far quicker than we can, and then turn around and destroy us in a manner we have no defence against.

VIs on the other hand aren't 'alive' in any real sense. They are at most pretending to be intelligent machines.

But it seems like there's more to it.  The way Tali tells it even before the geth there seems to have been a strong anti-AI attitude, and that the quarians would have been strung up if their research had been known by the other races.  The conviction they had that if they did not act the geth would kill them also seems to be rather strong, as they seemed to conclude that there was no possibility that a sentient AI would not kill them, which seems rather strange.  The whole thing just smells of something 'more' so to speak, that there is something we haven't been told yet.

Possibly, possibly. But then again, how many tales of AIs going rogue do we have in our own culture? The Terminator movies alone make out like the very millisecond AIs are born, they'll want to wipe us out as a threat to them.

But its wholy possible their is 'more' to it than that. And limits on AI research would benefit the Reapers because, well, we all saw how effective EDI was in hacking the Collector ship. Counter-Reaper AIs would probably do wonders in a space battle.

But as for the Quarians - none of there research was illegal - at worse, it skirted the law alittle, but all their work was on VIs. What they didn't predict was the outcome of VI networking would become a collective self-aware being. As a result, the Council tightened up the AI research laws after the Geth to make damn sure it didn't happen again.

And in the novel "revelations", the humans break the rules in a secret research project

[InHarmsWay]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more. The Quarians are wrong for zealously killing the Geth and remaining migrants for so long. I don't see a happy ending to the conflict, but I don't think you can assign more than about half the blame to either side.

I agree. Both sides have their share of blame (though I would not say this to Tali's face). After talking with Legion in the fourth conversation I realize that peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians. Legion did say plainly that the Geth went too far. Legion also says that the Geth don't even live on the Quarian worlds(they live in space stations apparently). The Geth that are on the worlds are only there trying to repair structures and cleaning up rubble and waste. I don't see why the Geth would have a problem with the Quarians going back to their homeworld. Simply showing Geth the logic in why the Quarians should have their world back by saying they need a place for their non-combatants in the war against the Reapers.

[Doug84]

InHarmsWay wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more. The Quarians are wrong for zealously killing the Geth and remaining migrants for so long. I don't see a happy ending to the conflict, but I don't think you can assign more than about half the blame to either side.

I agree. Both sides have their share of blame (though I would not say this to Tali's face). After talking with Legion in the fourth conversation I realize that peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians. Legion did say plainly that the Geth went too far. Legion also says that the Geth don't even live on the Quarian worlds(they live in space stations apparently). The Geth that are on the worlds are only there trying to repair structures and cleaning up rubble and waste. I don't see why the Geth would have a problem with the Quarians going back to their homeworld. Simply showing Geth the logic in why the Quarians should have their world back by saying they need a place for their non-combatants in the war against the Reapers.

Agreed - and the Geth are actually trying to build a mega structure along the lines of a dyson sphere somewhere in the Galaxy, so they have little interest in planets at all.

The only reason I can see the Geth not wanting the Quarians to return is...well, the Quarians (from the Geths PoV) are untrustworthy, and always attack if they ever think they have an advantage over the Geth.

[Zulu_DFA]

Doug84 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Eidolon94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread gets infested with the far-fetched idea that Rachni were indoctrinated by Sovereign. Stop that!

Actually, if you didn't kill the queen, her 'messenger' on Illium will tell you exactly this.

This is even foreshadowed in ME1.  When you speak with the queen, she says something about "a light from the stars that forced my people to sing the same sour yellow note".  Can't remember the exact wording, but in retrospect she is clearly talking about Reaper indoctrination.

Yes, yes she did. Hence my comment on how the idea that it was far-fetched was, in fact, my bottom.

Is pretty clearly spelled out that the Rachni became Reaper puppets.

OK guys, if you seriously want to hijack this thread, I'm with you.

So. I knew that crap about "sour yellow note". That's why I called it far-fetched. Until now I didn't know about the Illium "representative". Good job, BioWare. This is truly epic. A giant bug escapes undetected from a snowball planet and in two years starts flying around in starships of own making. And after that somebody finds Cerberus' apparent improvement between ME & ME2 implausible. This Rachni thing trumps even talimance in its ridiculousness and bonethrowingness.

Now, why I think it quite unbelievable that it was Sovereign that poked the Rachni into war. It simply had no reason to summon the Reaper invasion at that time. Galactic civilization was in its early stage od development then, not ripe enough to get reaped.  Even Citadel had been discovered only a couple of centuries prior, and relatively few Mass relays were activated. It simply does not make sense.

And again, attributing every the major stir in the Galaxy to the Reapers? This smells bad. It stinks in fact. It's like saying it was the Satan who started Napoleonic wars, World War 1 and World War 2 directly by posessing Napoleon, Kaiser and Hitler respectively. I think even pepole who believe in the reality of Satan won't say that.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 02:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Doug84 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more. The Quarians are wrong for zealously killing the Geth and remaining migrants for so long. I don't see a happy ending to the conflict, but I don't think you can assign more than about half the blame to either side.

I agree. Both sides have their share of blame (though I would not say this to Tali's face). After talking with Legion in the fourth conversation I realize that peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians. Legion did say plainly that the Geth went too far. Legion also says that the Geth don't even live on the Quarian worlds(they live in space stations apparently). The Geth that are on the worlds are only there trying to repair structures and cleaning up rubble and waste. I don't see why the Geth would have a problem with the Quarians going back to their homeworld. Simply showing Geth the logic in why the Quarians should have their world back by saying they need a place for their non-combatants in the war against the Reapers.

Agreed - and the Geth are actually trying to build a mega structure along the lines of a dyson sphere somewhere in the Galaxy, so they have little interest in planets at all.

The only reason I can see the Geth not wanting the Quarians to return is...well, the Quarians (from the Geths PoV) are untrustworthy, and always attack if they ever think they have an advantage over the Geth.

The Quarians don't want peace themselves. They want victory over the Geth. Making peace with the Geth and returning to their homeworld would just mean accepting the defeat in the "Morning War" and taking charity from their own mechanic slaves. This is the question of pride. Nothing more. That's why they haven't settled elsewhere.
The best way toresolve the situation is: split the Quarians into factions. Those proud ones, willing to die "gloriously" in battle may do so and "find peace in the embrace of the godess". The others, pacifists, may settle elswhere, then negotiate the homeworld return with the Geth.

[Gill Kaiser]

Neither the Quarians nor the Geth are blameless for what happened, in my opinion. That's all in the past, anyway. What really matters is the present, and as we know that peaceful coexistence between Geth and Quarians would be entirely possible, it's up to Shepard to appease the Geth's wariness and overcome the Quarians' bigotry.

[StreetlightEagle]

I agree with the Geth all the way. In fact even when I am able to persuade both Tali and Legion after their confrontation I still side with Legion regardless... cos he's right. And whoever compared the Quarians to the Palestinians at the top of this page needs to better understand the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

[xxLDZxx]

legion is saying in a talk with a admiral(quib quib, i think) of quarian fleet that peace is posibel.



So im ME3 is a lot of diplomatic work to do, talking and more talking and trying to get a neutral mood in the whole Geth quarian situation.mybe or war and let them kill each ather.