549 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightice_av]

So. I knew that crap about "sour yellow note". That's why I called it far-fetched. Until now I didn't know about the Illium "representative". Good job, BioWare. This is truly epic. A giant bug escapes undetected from a snowball planet and in two years starts flying around in starships of own making. This Rachni thing trumps even talimance in its ridiculousness and bonethrowingness.

Only if you utterly fail to pay attention. The rachni store all the information they learn to their genetic memory. The Queen knows perfectly how to build a spaceship and fly it. She only needs the materials. Now where she could get some? A decimated corporate base on an isolated mountaintop, maybe? Duh?

Now, why I think it quite unbelievable that it was Sovereign that poked the Rachni into war. It simply had no reason to summon the Reaper invasion at that time. Galactic civilization was in its early stage od development then, not ripe enough to get reaped. Even Citadel had been discovered only a couple of centuries prior, and relatively few Mass relays were activated. It simply does not make sense.

You claim to know what the Reapers consider "ripe"? I'm all but certain that they had picked the krogan as their target civilization to be "harvested" already, and the Sovereign was trying to use the rachni to activate the Citadel relay just like he later used the geth. But then the krogan were spoiled by the genophage (the Harbringer calls the krogan "wasted potential" if Grunt's in your squad), and the Sovereign went back to hibernation until new candidate, the humans showed up.



As for the actual topic, the geth essentially believe that freedom of decision is the innate right of every sentient being as long as they don't seek to harm the others. How could you disagree with that? The Geth Rebellion was a tragic mistake caused by wild panic on one side, and limited cognitive abilities on the other; the geth at this time had only just become sentient, and didn't have the means to pursue peace yet - they could just respond to a threat to their existence by destroying it. No-one is really to blame as such, except maybe the Citadel Conventions that inspire hysteria against artificial intelligence in all shapes and forms.

[FlintlockJazz]

Doug84 wrote...

Possibly, possibly. But then again, how many tales of AIs going rogue do we have in our own culture? The Terminator movies alone make out like the very millisecond AIs are born, they'll want to wipe us out as a threat to them.

But its wholy possible their is 'more' to it than that. And limits on AI research would benefit the Reapers because, well, we all saw how effective EDI was in hacking the Collector ship. Counter-Reaper AIs would probably do wonders in a space battle.

But as for the Quarians - none of there research was illegal - at worse, it skirted the law alittle, but all their work was on VIs. What they didn't predict was the outcome of VI networking would become a collective self-aware being. As a result, the Council tightened up the AI research laws after the Geth to make damn sure it didn't happen again.

And in the novel "revelations", the humans break the rules in a secret research project

True, it could all just be a result of the Quarians watching the Terminator a bit too much.   I do think the Quarian leap of logic from "The geth are gaining sentience" to "They are going to kill us all" is a bit strange from what we know, thinking about it I can see some possibilities as to how they came to it (Quarian culture may have become dependant on the geth to the point that they could not operate without them, and the realisation that the geth were now more than computer programs and the implications for their culture may have been the source of the panic), I'm just curious as to where the AI-hate came from if it was present even before the geth.

[Doug84]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Possibly, possibly. But then again, how many tales of AIs going rogue do we have in our own culture? The Terminator movies alone make out like the very millisecond AIs are born, they'll want to wipe us out as a threat to them.

But its wholy possible their is 'more' to it than that. And limits on AI research would benefit the Reapers because, well, we all saw how effective EDI was in hacking the Collector ship. Counter-Reaper AIs would probably do wonders in a space battle.

But as for the Quarians - none of there research was illegal - at worse, it skirted the law alittle, but all their work was on VIs. What they didn't predict was the outcome of VI networking would become a collective self-aware being. As a result, the Council tightened up the AI research laws after the Geth to make damn sure it didn't happen again.

And in the novel "revelations", the humans break the rules in a secret research project

True, it could all just be a result of the Quarians watching the Terminator a bit too much.   I do think the Quarian leap of logic from "The geth are gaining sentience" to "They are going to kill us all" is a bit strange from what we know, thinking about it I can see some possibilities as to how they came to it (Quarian culture may have become dependant on the geth to the point that they could not operate without them, and the realisation that the geth were now more than computer programs and the implications for their culture may have been the source of the panic), I'm just curious as to where the AI-hate came from if it was present even before the geth.

Well.. the way Tali put it in ME 1 was "The Geth where designed to do boring or dangerous work, and thats fine for a machine. But a sentient being won't be happy with that work for long, especially if they weren't asked to do it in the first place."

Basically, I think they suddenly saw there whole economic backbone coming alive of its own free will and suddenly thought about the infinite number of ways the machines they'd come to rely on could kill them without even trying much.

I think that kind of threat, combined with an inherent fear of AIs that seems to run through most organics in the ME universe, was enough for them to decide a pre-emitive strike was necessary.

EDIT: and see! The Collectors had the governer of Califorina on their side!

Modifié par Doug84, 17 février 2010 - 03:14 .

[didymos1120]

Only if you utterly fail to pay attention. The rachni store all the information they learn to their genetic memory. The Queen knows perfectly how to build a spaceship and fly it. She only needs the materials. Now where she could get some? A decimated corporate base on an isolated mountaintop, maybe? Duh?

Not to mention the ability to generate more or less endless amounts of labor, all of it very good at digging, which is pretty useful for acquring, say, metals and stuff.

[Jimbe2693]

I'm with the Geth, the quarians are a bunch of whiners who think everyone should pity them. It was their fault. They got paranoid and tried exterminating their slaves, only it backfired and they got booted off their homewolrd.

[didymos1120]

Jimbe2693 wrote...

I'm with the Geth, the quarians are a bunch of whiners who think everyone should pity them. It was their fault. They got paranoid and tried exterminating their slaves, only it backfired and they got booted off their homewolrd.

Umm, again: all the Quarians who did that stuff?  Dead.  The current ones are something like the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandkids of those guys at this point. 

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Only if you utterly fail to pay attention. The rachni store all the information they learn to their genetic memory. The Queen knows perfectly how to build a spaceship and fly it. She only needs the materials. Now where she could get some? A decimated corporate base on an isolated mountaintop, maybe? Duh?

Not to mention the ability to generate more or less endless amounts of labor, all of it very good at digging, which is pretty useful for acquring, say, metals and stuff.

It's you who are not paying attention. The main question is: How in the f*ck did the Rachni queen get off Noveria?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Mondo47]

This has always been the Frankenstein argument to me: is Victor right to seek endless revenge on the Creature for destroying all he loves, or is the Creature, while morally incorrect (and by the end of the novel almost as broken as Victor by grief for its actions) for seeking such violent retribution, right in seeking love from its father who abandoned it and being angry for never recieving it?

In the end, the Creature still loved Victor, despite everything. That story breaks my damn heart every time I read it... thinking about it make me cry.

So, I have to side with the Geth. Both sides are doing things wrong, but that's anger for you; it's irrational. You lash out. Parents hurt their kids, so the kids hurt their parents. As the poem goes, 'They **** you up, Your Mum and Dad,'

But to me, in the end, the Quarians had a responsibility to their children, one they didn't live up to nor even tried to. They brought it on themselves. Hopefully before both are annihilated they'll see the light. It'll be the Geth though that offer their hands first... because so often it's our kids that see the right way to do things.

Go on, tar me with the 'Geth Apologist' brush. It's because I'm a loving parent.

[Gill Kaiser]

Mondo47 wrote...

This has always been the Frankenstein argument to me: is Victor right to seek endless revenge on the Creature for destroying all he loves, or is the Creature, while morally incorrect (and by the end of the novel almost as broken as Victor by grief for its actions) for seeking such violent retribution, right in seeking love from its father who abandoned it and being angry for never recieving it?
In the end, the Creature still loved Victor, despite everything. That story breaks my damn heart every time I read it... thinking about it make me cry.
So, I have to side with the Geth. Both sides are doing things wrong, but that's anger for you; it's irrational. You lash out. Parents hurt their kids, so the kids hurt their parents. As the poem goes, 'They **** you up, Your Mum and Dad,'
But to me, in the end, the Quarians had a responsibility to their children, one they didn't live up to nor even tried to. They brought it on themselves. Hopefully before both are annihilated they'll see the light. It'll be the Geth though that offer their hands first... because so often it's our kids that see the right way to do things.
Go on, tar me with the 'Geth Apologist' brush. It's because I'm a loving parent.

Larkin and Shelley evocations, in one post? Nice.

Anyway, I agree with you that the geth are less to blame than the quarians... but that was in the past. The quarians who made the mistake and started the Morning War are long dead. It's unfair to punish their descendants for something they did.

[Doug84]

Mondo47 wrote...

This has always been the Frankenstein argument to me: is Victor right to seek endless revenge on the Creature for destroying all he loves, or is the Creature, while morally incorrect (and by the end of the novel almost as broken as Victor by grief for its actions) for seeking such violent retribution, right in seeking love from its father who abandoned it and being angry for never recieving it?
In the end, the Creature still loved Victor, despite everything. That story breaks my damn heart every time I read it... thinking about it make me cry.
So, I have to side with the Geth. Both sides are doing things wrong, but that's anger for you; it's irrational. You lash out. Parents hurt their kids, so the kids hurt their parents. As the poem goes, 'They **** you up, Your Mum and Dad,'
But to me, in the end, the Quarians had a responsibility to their children, one they didn't live up to nor even tried to. They brought it on themselves. Hopefully before both are annihilated they'll see the light. It'll be the Geth though that offer their hands first... because so often it's our kids that see the right way to do things.

True, true. Though I suppose the slight (though not theory breaking) issue is the Quarians weren't trying to make a 'Victor' - they just suddenly found that their creations where coming alive without their knowledge.

Go on, tar me with the 'Geth Apologist' brush. It's because I'm a loving parent.

*Tars and pours Geth Apologist on you* I have to ask, why did you want me to do that?

[FlintlockJazz]

Mondo47 wrote...

This has always been the Frankenstein argument to me: is Victor right to seek endless revenge on the Creature for destroying all he loves, or is the Creature, while morally incorrect (and by the end of the novel almost as broken as Victor by grief for its actions) for seeking such violent retribution, right in seeking love from its father who abandoned it and being angry for never recieving it?
In the end, the Creature still loved Victor, despite everything. That story breaks my damn heart every time I read it... thinking about it make me cry.
So, I have to side with the Geth. Both sides are doing things wrong, but that's anger for you; it's irrational. You lash out. Parents hurt their kids, so the kids hurt their parents. As the poem goes, 'They **** you up, Your Mum and Dad,'
But to me, in the end, the Quarians had a responsibility to their children, one they didn't live up to nor even tried to. They brought it on themselves. Hopefully before both are annihilated they'll see the light. It'll be the Geth though that offer their hands first... because so often it's our kids that see the right way to do things.
Go on, tar me with the 'Geth Apologist' brush. It's because I'm a loving parent.

Actually, all the quarians responsible are dead, the quarians today could in fact be argued to be the children in your example, since they are living with the consequences of the geth/quarian conflict with which they had no hand in.  Also, the geth did not lash out in anger, if Legion shows anything it's that the Geth just don't care one way or another, they neither hate nor love their creators, and are just happy enough keeping to themselves, and so don't seem likely to offer the hand of friendship because they have no reason to.  The Quarians and the Geth are more estranged siblings than parent/child now, and the only way it's going to get resolved is either by the Quarians (most likely violently) or an outside force acting on them (Shepard).

As to kids often being the ones to see the right way, I'd have to say I've had the opposite experience but no need to debate that here.

[Mondo47]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Anyway, I agree with you that the geth are less to blame than the quarians... but that was in the past. The quarians who made the mistake and started the Morning War are long dead. It's unfair to punish their descendants for something they did.

I've got too much mommie-perspective

Thing that gets me is how the Geth see themselves as 'caretakers' of the homeworld... the issue may be that they can't take an olive branch to the Creators without getting shot at, and despite thinking at the speed of light the requirement for consensus might be stopping the punishment from ending; one billion and one say yes to peace, one billion and two say no, and those three jerks playing draw poker keep abstaining - no consensus, let's go back and look at all the evidence again...

I sided with the Machines in The Matrix too

[T0paze]

The 'true' geth are obviously right, without questions.

I'd support them any time in ME3, if I were to choose between them and the quarians (provided that the situation doesn't change, i.e. it is the quarians that harbor military plans, not the geth).

Being synthetic doesn't matter. They are self-aware, they're not hostile and they respect self-determination in other species - it's all that matters. Hell, that also makes them much more civilized than certain organic races (like krogan).

As a matter of fact, I'd support them even in ME2 (during that Legion/Tali confrontation - by telling Tali to back off) but the Paragon option was indeed reasonable, and not just, well, one of those stupid Paragon lines.

Modifié par T0paze, 17 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[Computron2000]

Think about this. Your toaster with a microchip that says "your toast is done", suddenly says "Am i alive?". What would you do?

In the ME universe it is even more complex as its considered slavery and violate galactic law. Wanting to switch off the toaster and never switching it on again (plus hiding it somewhere) is analogous to the quarian response.

Is it right or wrong? That is subjective and we cannot achieve a universal answer. As legion mentions, the geth are fighting for the right of continued existance. Do created machines, even one that fufill the criteria of sentience or do an faux approximation, ever have the right to continued existance, regardless of their creators wishes? Again subjective and undeterminable.

The quarian-geth war mirrors many of the multi-decade hostilities in the real world where who is right or wrong in the original conflict has been forgotten. The here and now is the only thing that should be of concern and for ME, it is better for both to coexist.

Modifié par Computron2000, 17 février 2010 - 04:14 .

[UnstableMongoose]

This topic is only correct if you believe a word of what Legion says. Mind you, you'd be believing something you have no hard evidence to believe that flies in the face of everything you know about the geth, but we can ignore that little factoid.

[Doug84]

Computron2000 wrote...

Think about this. Your toaster with a microchip that says "your toast is done", suddenly says "Am i alive?". What would you do?

In the ME universe it is even more complex as its considered slavery and violate galactic law. Wanting to switch off the toaster and never switching it on again (plus hiding it somewhere) is analogous to the quarian response.

Very true, and I think alot of people are assuming this was a gradual or intentional process, as they aren't factoring in the 'panic' factor of the Geth suddening asking questions like "Do we have souls?"

Is it right or wrong? That is subjective and we cannot achieve a universal answer. As legion mentions, the geth are fighting for the right of continued existance. Do created machines, even one that fufill the criteria of sentience or do an faux approximation, ever have the right to continued existance, regardless of their creators wishes? Again subjective and undeterminable.

The quarian-geth war mirrors many of the multi-decade hostilities in the real world where who is right or wrong in the original conflict has been forgotten. The here and now is the only thing that should be of concern and for ME, it is better for both to coexist.

Well... I would say a sentient being has the right to self-determination, regardless of if its a creation or not. Assuming that their independence didn't come at the cost of another species being wiped out, or some other extreme price, of course. But yeah, the Geth and Quarians need to settle the conflict and settle down. The Quarians need to return to their homeworld, and the Geth need to reconile with their creators before they can really move on with their own future (As Legion says, the Geth are trying to understand organics).

[Doug84]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

This topic is only correct if you believe a word of what Legion says. Mind you, you'd be believing something you have no hard evidence to believe that flies in the face of everything you know about the geth, but we can ignore that little factoid.

Like how the Council ignore the Reapers because there is no hard evidence

[Darth_Ultima]

Madecologist wrote...

Here is the thing... the Geth... don't really need the Quarian homeworld. Once they fought to survive and the Quarians left. They could have packed bags and find a dark corner to hide in. One, they are patient (the Heretics are the ones that are not), so it is not like rebuilding an infrastructure elsewhere will bother them. Two, they are not even using the Quarian Homeworld, they are just like... parked there building their superhub. If they are not using the planet, they could have just easily moved elsewhere and did it there, and who cares if it would take longer (see point 1). To be fair how much longer, not like they are using the Quarian Homeworld's infrastructure or resources. Lastly, because they are there it stops the Quarian from coming back without a conflict. If they just left, the Quarians could eventually go back (after they realize the Geth are gone).
If you look at it, the Geth are terrible, they are like big space bullies. It is not even like they are using it. A perfectly good planet is wasted and the Quarians are stuck in space. I am sure this sets the stage for some uber Paragon resolution of the Quarians coming home if they can make peace with the Geth. But aside from that, they are just blocking it really.
I am not saying I am not sympathetic to the Geth plight, though their Morning War was a war of self-defense. Plus the Quarians are still keen on kicking them one day. They are not exactly angels either. I think Bioware ment it that way.

The Geth did find a dark place to hide, it was called the Persius Veil.  It just so happened that the Quarians homeworld was inside the Veil.  And I am curious how you know what the Geth are doing on the Quarians homeworld?  I never read that information anywhere.  The Geth were used as labor so in essence they were a part of the Quarians industrial infrastucture.  Why would the Geth abandon these industries.  I would imagine they are using the homeworld and the colonies of the Geth to build up their civilazation because why wouldn't they.

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

I find it's more a tragedy than a case of "Party X (or Y) is to blame!".

A peaceful solution would be the preferrable outcome in my opinion.



If a war can't be avoided, I'd be with the Quarians. As Legion says, Geth don't even feel pain. If they don't feel pain, killing the Geth would obviously cause less pain in total than killing the Quarians.

[Daewan]

As someone who is much more comfortable with computers than people, if my toaster asked me what a soul was, I would answer. I certainly would not have the arrogance to insist that only my species has one, and I wouldn't insist that it is a lesser, soulless creation undeserving of respect and protection. If my toaster asked if it had a soul, I would answer honestly, and say "I don't know."

Humans like to anthromorphize objects. We refer to most vessels in the feminine and admire their beauty. We get angry with machines. We grow attached to pens.

Of all the species in the ME universe, we're probably the only ones who would ever sit down and talk with the Geth. We're definitely the only ones who would sit up late wondering how to make the Geth equivalent of beer.

All the other species seem to assume that all artificial life automatically wants to wipe out organic life; that is their worldview and that's how they've all been raised. It's codified into Council law. Humans have historically fantasized about all the possibilities of artificial life and how it would react to us. Sometimes, we see them as protectors (golems, giant friendly robots, etc), sometimes as monsters (Frankenstein, Chucky, etc). We're stupid enough to take the chance that maybe this glowy rock will be friends with us. Why? Because sometimes, it works.

[boardnfool86]

the geth are correct, the heretics however are stupid

[UnstableMongoose]

Doug84 wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

This topic is only correct if you believe a word of what Legion says. Mind you, you'd be believing something you have no hard evidence to believe that flies in the face of everything you know about the geth, but we can ignore that little factoid.

Like how the Council ignore the Reapers because there is no hard evidence

The Council ignores the Reapers for reasons of political expedience. I distrust Legion's claims because the fate of the galaxy could turn sour if my trust is betrayed by a combined army of the geth under the Reapers stabbing us in the back. Commander Shepard can't afford to take people at their word, there's too much at stake. And, you know, there was that one Reaper who attacked the Citadel.

[Lightice_av]

It's you who are not paying attention. The main question is: How in the f*ck did the Rachni queen get off Noveria?

Er, simple? Build a ship from the equipment in the ExoGeni base, steal ExoGeni IFF signals from the same place, fly off without anyone being any wiser. 

EDIT: Uh, actually there is even simpler way that I just remembered: Benezia's shuttle. Benezia went into the place with a shuttle, but she obviously has no more use for it. It was big enough for a squad of commandos and geth, so it should be big enough for the Queen. Potentially mind control one of the scientists to fly it if absolutely necessary. End of story.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 17 février 2010 - 04:37 .

[FlintlockJazz]

I like to sum up the issue thusly: it was wrong of the Quarians to try to wipe out an emerging race, but it was also wrong of the geth to massacre children (going from a population of several billion to 17 million would result in a large surplus supply of the 'other' other white meat for export) and both sides either need to make up or answer for crimes. Playing the blame game is for politicians after they have been caught fiddling with expenses.



On a lighter note, anyone else realise that you get to fight true geth (the non-heretic geth) when you are attacking the bases in the Geth incursion missions?

[GuardianAngel470]

aaniadyen wrote...

You also need to remember that the Geth are only software. if they were really only interested in living by themselves peacefully they could go off to a hidden location no organics would and putting their collective consciousness onto a giant hard drive (or series of hard drives). They don't do that, though...they inhabit the only planet Quarians can live on instead. Why? Well...*shrugs* It's uncertain. It's impossible for the Geth to not understand that they displaced the entire Quarian home world. Whether they understand the implications...*shrugs* That's anyone's guess. One more thing is...what if Humans in real life were the Quarians? Quarians never even broke the anti-AI research laws. They didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet came into existence. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

Actually that's exactly what Legion tells you they're doing, making a giant mobile platform where all of the geth can reside, and he also tells you that they don't even live on the quarian homeworld, that they are just caretakers of it.