549 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightice_av]

On a lighter note, anyone else realise that you get to fight true geth (the non-heretic geth) when you are attacking the bases in the Geth incursion missions?

Actually they're probably Heretic as well, since Legion makes no effort to negotiate if you take him along into those missions.

[Mondo47]

Lightice_av wrote...

It's you who are not paying attention. The main question is: How in the f*ck did the Rachni queen get off Noveria?

Er, simple? Build a ship from the equipment in the ExoGeni base, steal ExoGeni IFF signals from the same place, fly off without anyone being any wiser. 

EDIT: Uh, actually there is even simpler way that I just remembered: Benezia's shuttle. Benezia went into the place with a shuttle, but she obviously has no more use for it. It was big enough for a squad of commandos and geth, so it should be big enough for the Queen. Potentially mind control one of the scientists to fly it if absolutely necessary. End of story.

That's got to be the least effort/most logic option... mind-control people to ferry you wherever.

[GuardianAngel470]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

This topic is only correct if you believe a word of what Legion says. Mind you, you'd be believing something you have no hard evidence to believe that flies in the face of everything you know about the geth, but we can ignore that little factoid.

Like how the Council ignore the Reapers because there is no hard evidence

The Council ignores the Reapers for reasons of political expedience. I distrust Legion's claims because the fate of the galaxy could turn sour if my trust is betrayed by a combined army of the geth under the Reapers stabbing us in the back. Commander Shepard can't afford to take people at their word, there's too much at stake. And, you know, there was that one Reaper who attacked the Citadel.

Remember that you take legion into firefights (That is if you ever took legion into a firefight) so essentially he could have killed you at any time but he chose not to.  To me that's one of the best ways to judge someone's intentions.  If he doesn't shoot you in the back when he has the chance, and can get away with it, then he can probably be trusted.

[UnstableMongoose]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Remember that you take legion into firefights (That is if you ever took legion into a firefight) so essentially he could have killed you at any time but he chose not to.  To me that's one of the best ways to judge someone's intentions.  If he doesn't shoot you in the back when he has the chance, and can get away with it, then he can probably be trusted.

Legion has many times publicly stated the geth often go through extended experiments designed to manipulate and judge organic response. I won't be surprised if he turns out to be truthful, but I won't be shocked if this is just another Reaper Trojan Horse like the Citadel.

And some other things don't match up in the whole "trust the geth just because Legion is a badass" idea. Mainly the contradiction between stated ideals presented by the geth and fact.
A. Geth have no emotion according to Legion.
B. Geth have repeatedly acted in a ruthless manner that does NOT benefit their situation, is pointlessly cruel, and merely increases the resolve of their enemies. (Destruction of quarian ancestry worship materials is probably the best example of this phenomenon). From an empirical standpoint, these actions are illogical.
C. If this was simple misinformation from anyone else, I would wave it off, but that clashes with Legion's stated disgust with lying. (Tell Legion to stand down in his argument with Tali and go make it up to him Paragon-style to see what I'm talking about).
D. They are a race of sentient machines responsible for the near-extinction of an organic species and have giant glowing eyes. They are CLEARLY evil.

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 17 février 2010 - 04:48 .

[Lightice_av]

If he doesn't shoot you in the back when he has the chance, and can get away with it, then he can probably be trusted.

Indeed. More importanly you can let him spend indefinite time in the Normandy's AI core where he could potentially just flush all the oxygen out of the ship if he felt so inclined. He doesn't. Now I think that the geth would still be willing to go to war against the organics if they thought this was the only way to ensure their survival, but it isn't, and working with Legion helps to ensure that it'll never come to that.

A. Geth have no emotion according to Legion.

False. They don't have all the feelings that the organics have, but they clearly feel many things. They can appreciate art and feel religious awe. They can also admire individuals, respect other species, and most importantly, they fear death.

B. Geth have repeatedly acted in a ruthless manner that does NOT benefit their situation, is pointlessly cruel, and merely increases the resolve of their enemies. (Destruction of quarian ancestry worship materials is probably the best example of this phenomenon). From an empirical standpoint, these actions are illogical.

The geth committed their worst atrocities when they were still primitive creatures acting under pure survival instinct. Since then they have evolved and developed a sense of morality that doesn't fully match that of the organic races, but is still quite well developed.

D. They are a race of sentient machines responsible for the near-extinction of an organic species and have giant glowing eyes. They are CLEARLY evil.

Do the words "subverted trope" mean anything to you?

Modifié par Lightice_av, 17 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[BattleVisor]

Tahleron1 wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

The data about the early days of the way is quite lacking, I have to say. It's difficult to discern the exact motivations. It could range anywhere from panicked hysteria and brutal genocide all the way down to the Quarian leadership honestly believing that the Geth being ordered to shut down weren't yet sentient, but could become so at any moment, and the Geth responding brutally and butchering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown, just because the Geth don't see killing as wrong.

it would be fairly similar to our own species right now, where the last thing a monkey would want to do is learn to talk   We've had other sapient species on earth (the neanderthal was), whether we helped their extinction along is unknown, but it wouldn't be inconceivable.

Neandrathals are the same species as us

[Tahleron1]

UnstableMongoose wrote...


B. Geth have repeatedly acted in a ruthless manner that does NOT benefit their situation, is pointlessly cruel, and merely increases the resolve of their enemies. (Destruction of quarian ancestry worship materials is probably the best example of this phenomenon). From an empirical standpoint, these actions are illogical.

Actually that's not illogical at all, in fact it is if anything, merciless efficiency, it's also based on a real life event.

The Romans used it on the Jews to cripple their religious institution (by destroying the 2nd temple) and make eviction from Judaea easier to enforce.

[sunovafm]

i have sided with the geth since me 1 all they did was live and the quarians wanted to kill them for it if i could have i would have nuked the migrant fleet in me 2 for those weapons tests combined with what they did to the poor geth

[Annora]

I may be in the minorty, but I always thought that the Quarians were wrong for what they did to the Geth. Instead of the Quarians accepting that their synthetic creations had achieved sentience, they tried to murder them all. The Geth fought back, as anybody would do if they were threatened.

The Quarians were using the Geth as slave labour basically, which is fine if it's just a robot... but they weren't just robots anymore. The Quarians were incredibly selfish, and Admiral Xen is a prime example of Quarian arrogance and foolishness. She's going to get a whole lot of Quarians killed.

[Tahleron1]

BattleVisor wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

The data about the early days of the way is quite lacking, I have to say. It's difficult to discern the exact motivations. It could range anywhere from panicked hysteria and brutal genocide all the way down to the Quarian leadership honestly believing that the Geth being ordered to shut down weren't yet sentient, but could become so at any moment, and the Geth responding brutally and butchering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown, just because the Geth don't see killing as wrong.

it would be fairly similar to our own species right now, where the last thing a monkey would want to do is learn to talk   We've had other sapient species on earth (the neanderthal was), whether we helped their extinction along is unknown, but it wouldn't be inconceivable.

Neandrathals are the same species as us

uh, no they weren't

[FlintlockJazz]

Lightice_av wrote...

On a lighter note, anyone else realise that you get to fight true geth (the non-heretic geth) when you are attacking the bases in the Geth incursion missions?

Actually they're probably Heretic as well, since Legion makes no effort to negotiate if you take him along into those missions.

Actually I'm talking about a mission in ME1, which would make it hard to bring Legion along in the first place.

[sunovafm]

Tahleron1 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

The data about the early days of the way is quite lacking, I have to say. It's difficult to discern the exact motivations. It could range anywhere from panicked hysteria and brutal genocide all the way down to the Quarian leadership honestly believing that the Geth being ordered to shut down weren't yet sentient, but could become so at any moment, and the Geth responding brutally and butchering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown, just because the Geth don't see killing as wrong.

it would be fairly similar to our own species right now, where the last thing a monkey would want to do is learn to talk   We've had other sapient species on earth (the neanderthal was), whether we helped their extinction along is unknown, but it wouldn't be inconceivable.

Neandrathals are the same species as us

uh, no they weren't

uh yes they were there were many things we were befor homosapiaen

[The Governator]

The geth, as admitted by Legion, are detached and seem entirely incapable of understanding even rudimentary emotion.  It does not even understand its individuality.  The sole criminal element in the Quarian stance against the geth derives from their willingness to arrest the potential for evolution, not quite the crime you guys are making it to be.  Given our (as in humanity in reality) understanding of computers that seems negligible to me but then I could be accused of ethnocentrism.  The closest the geth came to sapience was when one asked whether or not they had souls.  Insignificant since they are unlikely to comprehend the measure of a soul.  They do not feel anger or hatred toward Quarians even after all their years of war.  Their actions seem more compulsory and logical than reasoned or impassioned, so it begs the question of their vaunted 'intelligence', artificial or not. 

Assimilated knowledge is not the same as cognition and understanding.  One can only make a slave of an unwilling and sapient being.  In my considered opinion, that charge is greatly overstated and beasts of burden do not count as they are unwilling, until conditioned, to respond with desired results. 

AIs are just that; artificial.  I do not know where the threshold for sentience begins but it seems clear to me, by its ability to express itself, that Legion is neither sapient nor sentient. 

I believe to have sapience intelligence and emotion need to combine, elevating both.  What would you call raw, unfettered emotion without reason?  Insanity?  I am not sure, but the contrast is no more desireable.  They are geth.

[Lightice_av]

uh yes they were there were many things we were befor homosapiaen

Uh, no. ****** Neanderthalis is a different species from ****** Sapiens that coexisted on this planet with us several tens of thousands of years ago. We share common ancestors with them, but we don't descend from them, nor are we the same species. They were a human species, but not the human species that survives today.

AIs are just that; artificial.  I do not know where the threshold for sentience begins but it seems clear to me, by its ability to express itself, that Legion is neither sapient nor sentient. 

Wrong. Legion is very much both. Sapient and sentient in a very different way from humans, but still quite really. There is no equivalent of intelligence that of the Geth among organic species, but it's still real, creative, sentient intelligence capable of comprehending itself and the world around it, capable of making moral decisions, having artistic or religious insights, capable of attachment towards individuals...

Modifié par Lightice_av, 17 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[SL22]

Of course the geth are right, the quarians tried to wipe them out.

You have to also remember that many quarians will have been raised (like Tali) to believe that the quarians actions were justified.

[sunovafm]

The Governator wrote...

The geth, as admitted by Legion, are detached and seem entirely incapable of understanding even rudimentary emotion.  It does not even understand its individuality.  The sole criminal element in the Quarian stance against the geth derives from their willingness to arrest the potential for evolution, not quite the crime you guys are making it to be.  Given our (as in humanity in reality) understanding of computers that seems negligible to me but then I could be accused of ethnocentrism.  The closest the geth came to sapience was when one asked whether or not they had souls.  Insignificant since they are unlikely to comprehend the measure of a soul.  They do not feel anger or hatred toward Quarians even after all their years of war.  Their actions seem more compulsory and logical than reasoned or impassioned, so it begs the question of their vaunted 'intelligence', artificial or not. 

Assimilated knowledge is not the same as cognition and understanding.  One can only make a slave of an unwilling and sapient being.  In my considered opinion, that charge is greatly overstated and beasts of burden do not count as they are unwilling, until conditioned, to respond with desired results. 

AIs are just that; artificial.  I do not know where the threshold for sentience begins but it seems clear to me, by its ability to express itself, that Legion is neither sapient nor sentient. 

I believe to have sapience intelligence and emotion need to combine, elevating both.  What would you call raw, unfettered emotion without reason?  Insanity?  I am not sure, but the contrast is no more desireable.  They are geth.

imho emotions are not neciary to be alive and thats what the geth are besides legion DOSE have emotions ask him about his n7 armour ... he just cant comprehend/explain his emotions yet

[BattleVisor]

Lightice_av wrote...

uh yes they were there were many things we were befor homosapiaen

Uh, no. ****** Neanderthalis is a different species from ****** Sapiens that coexisted on this planet with us several tens of thousands of years ago. We share common ancestors with them, but we don't descend from them, nor are we the same species. They were a human species, but not the human species that survives today.

 

Dont confuses sub-species with species.

We are both sub-species of human, hence the same species.

Bengal and Siberian tigers are both sub-species of tigers, hence the same species.

[Caughill]

"Turning off" is not the same as murder. A computer can be turned back on. An organic can not be unmurdered (the Lazarus Project aside).



That said, I think many of the folks on this thread are a little too trusting of the Geth.



The main evidence is the Heretics themselves. Who knows when some input will make all Geth decide the Heretics were right. Personally, I wouldn't be too comfortable with the fate of all organic life hanging on a difference of one point in the fourth decimal of some Geth calculation.



That said, I'm rooting for peace and reconciliation between the Quarians the the Geth in ME3.

[FlintlockJazz]

Tahleron1 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...
Neandrathals are the same species as us

uh, no they weren't

I was going to say the exact same thing.  Neanderthals share ancestry with humanity but branched off long before humanity appeared.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 17 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[Tahleron1]

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Empiro wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tali explains in ME1 that the Quarians had hoped that the incident was isolated, and that the attempt to shut down the Geth was done as a precaution rather than an act of war or violence. Obviously the Geth felt threatened, though, and war ensued.

A precaution by taking out the sapient ones because maybe their sapience was isolated? that's assclown reasoning for genocide if i ever heard one.

The data about the early days of the way is quite lacking, I have to say. It's difficult to discern the exact motivations. It could range anywhere from panicked hysteria and brutal genocide all the way down to the Quarian leadership honestly believing that the Geth being ordered to shut down weren't yet sentient, but could become so at any moment, and the Geth responding brutally and butchering people who had absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown, just because the Geth don't see killing as wrong.

it would be fairly similar to our own species right now, where the last thing a monkey would want to do is learn to talk   We've had other sapient species on earth (the neanderthal was), whether we helped their extinction along is unknown, but it wouldn't be inconceivable.

Neandrathals are the same species as us

uh, no they weren't

uh yes they were there were many things we were befor homosapiaen

um, no they weren't, we come from africa, they came from Europe, their extinction has been tied to one of 3 things, 2 include us basically coming in and wiping them out and the 3rd (which has all but completely fallen apart due to recent evidence) is we interbred them out of existence.

[Annora]

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...
Neandrathals are the same species as us

uh, no they weren't

uh yes they were there were many things we were befor homosapiaen

They actually aren't the same species as us. Neandertals were a different species of the ****** genus. They were similar to us, yes, but they are not the same. It's like the difference between a gorilla and an orangutan. They're both large apes, but they're not the same thing.

Neandertals went extinct, while our species, the modern ****** sapiens, flourished. There was also another extinct variation of humans, the Boskop, that had much larger brains than ours. It is believed they spent most of their time on reflection, and were non-violent. They were no match for our brutality and will to live.

The more you know.

Modifié par Anastassia, 17 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[SkywardDescent]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I disagree. Both sides of the conflict are wrong to some extent. The Geth are wrong (both morally and tactically) for holding onto Rannoch and for not integrating into organic society more. The Quarians are wrong for zealously killing the Geth and remaining migrants for so long. I don't see a happy ending to the conflict, but I don't think you can assign more than about half the blame to either side.

[Lightice_av]

Dont confuses sub-species with species.



We are both sub-species of human, hence the same species.

I don't. You fail to understand the concept of species.

The ****** genus is actually nothing more than a statement of human pride, not a biological fact. Biologically we are great apes. From genetic standpoint you can just as well say that we are "subspecies" of chimpanzee and gorilla, and that they are "subspecies" of each other. We are genetically almost as close to them as we are to Neanderthals. Most research indicates that interbreeding between ****** Sapiens and Neanderthal was either impossible or produced only sterile hybrids. In other words, different species.

[The Governator]

Lightice_av wrote...




Wrong. Legion is very much both. Sapient and sentient in a very different way from humans, but still quite really. There is no equivalent of intelligence that of the Geth among organic species, but it's still real, creative, sentient intelligence capable of comprehending itself and the world around it, capable of making moral decisions, having artistic or religious insights, capable of attachment towards individuals...

Those insights are what I mean by assimilated knowledge.  Just because it is able to articulate those things does not mean those are its beliefs or conclusions.  They could merely be parroted views. 

I cannot make you see my view, but you cannot make me see yours.  I disagree with the original poster for the reasons I listed.  Given time I could probably expand my reasons, but I doubt I would convince you.  It's just an opinion.  

I do think one of the defining elements of *edit* 'sapient life' is self awareness.  Legion seems wholly unable to recognize his individuality.  It recognizes the network...'we are geth'. 

I dunno...I think the rest is postulation; self evident truths. 

Modifié par The Governator, 17 février 2010 - 05:11 .

[Tahleron1]

sapience is the ability to make judgements/reason things out, not so much self awareness, the geth are most definitely sapient.

Heck he even describes his reasoning behind joining with "Shepard-Commander"

The geth don't recognise their individuality, because they aren't individuals in the same sense as we are, their processes can be interchangeable through platform, he could become a dropship, at aby given notice, so of course, they have no sense of individual in regards to his body, they are ultimately a 'single intelligence' made up of billions upon billions of processes.  Compared to the Reapers, a single Reaper makes up the equivalent of the entire Geth collective,

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 05:22 .