549 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightice_av]

Those insights are what I mean by assimilated knowledge. Just because it is able to articulate those things does not mean those are its beliefs or conclusions. They could merely be parroted views.

If something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck and functions biologically like a duck, then it is a duck, or so close to duck that it makes no difference.

The geth are capable of all the things that I mentioned. They have shown capability to self-evolve, something that we humans haven't yet gotten around to do. They have a sense of morality that is clearly distinct from that of the organic creatures, clearly developed on their own.

I do think one of the defining elements of 'life' is self awareness. Legion seems wholly unable to recognize his individuality. It recognizes the network...'we are geth'.

That's because there are different kinds of intelligence. The geth are not like humans. They are an emergent consciousness produced from the interactions of countless of simple processes. They don't have an individuality in the same sense as humans, but they are still intelligent sentient beings. As Legion tries to explain to you, organics are a combination of hardware and software, while the geth are purely software.



You assume that there is only one single possible type of "mind" in existence. I call foul on that assumption.

Try this metaphor: the geth minds are like a map of colours that smoothly change from one shade to another, while the human minds are like primary colours with strict lines separating them from one another.

[sunovafm]

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them



they fear death (or they would not have fought back)

they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)

they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

[Zulu_DFA]

Lightice_av wrote...

It's you who are not paying attention. The main question is: How in the f*ck did the Rachni queen get off Noveria?

Er, simple? Build a ship from the equipment in the ExoGeni base, steal ExoGeni IFF signals from the same place, fly off without anyone being any wiser. 

EDIT: Uh, actually there is even simpler way that I just remembered: Benezia's shuttle. Benezia went into the place with a shuttle, but she obviously has no more use for it. It was big enough for a squad of commandos and geth, so it should be big enough for the Queen. Potentially mind control one of the scientists to fly it if absolutely necessary. End of story.

Whatever you wish, dear rachni fanboy. Even though it was Binary Helix, let it be ExoGeni. Amen.

[sunovafm]

Lightice_av wrote...

I do think one of the defining elements of 'life' is self awareness. Legion seems wholly unable to recognize his individuality. It recognizes the network...'we are geth'.

That's because there are different kinds of intelligence. The geth are not like humans. They are an emergent consciousness produced from the interactions of countless of simple processes. They don't have an individuality in the same sense as humans, but they are still intelligent sentient beings. As Legion tries to explain to you, organics are a combination of hardware and software, while the geth are purely software.

You assume that there is only one single possible type of "mind" in existence. I call foul on that assumption.
Try this metaphor: the geth minds are like a map of colours that smoothly change from one shade to another, while the human minds are like primary colours with strict lines separating them from one another.

a human could beconsidered alot like the geth were alot of simple proccesses *cells* that add up to concisnus
our minds also both work on electrical signals

[sunovafm]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

It's you who are not paying attention. The main question is: How in the f*ck did the Rachni queen get off Noveria?

Er, simple? Build a ship from the equipment in the ExoGeni base, steal ExoGeni IFF signals from the same place, fly off without anyone being any wiser. 

EDIT: Uh, actually there is even simpler way that I just remembered: Benezia's shuttle. Benezia went into the place with a shuttle, but she obviously has no more use for it. It was big enough for a squad of commandos and geth, so it should be big enough for the Queen. Potentially mind control one of the scientists to fly it if absolutely necessary. End of story.

Whatever you wish, dear rachni fanboy. Even though it was Binary Helix, let it be ExoGeni. Amen.

dose it realy moter how she got off she did get off world that is confirmed if you save her she even tells you so

[That One Display Name]

aaniadyen wrote...

You also need to remember that the Geth are only software. if they were really only interested in living by themselves peacefully they could go off to a hidden location no organics would and putting their collective consciousness onto a giant hard drive (or series of hard drives). They don't do that, though...they inhabit the only planet Quarians can live on instead. Why? Well...*shrugs* It's uncertain. It's impossible for the Geth to not understand that they displaced the entire Quarian home world. Whether they understand the implications...*shrugs* That's anyone's guess. One more thing is...what if Humans in real life were the Quarians? Quarians never even broke the anti-AI research laws. They didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet came into existence. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

^
Win

[Lightice_av]

Whatever you wish, dear rachni fanboy. Even though it was Binary Helix, let it be ExoGeni. Amen.

Been awhile since I played ME1. But seriously, you seem to hate the rachni (and a number of other plot-points) for the sake of hating. So much for all the talk about logic. I came up with a simple logical explanation and that makes me a "fanboy". Yeah...

[sunovafm]

That One Display Name wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

You also need to remember that the Geth are only software. if they were really only interested in living by themselves peacefully they could go off to a hidden location no organics would and putting their collective consciousness onto a giant hard drive (or series of hard drives). They don't do that, though...they inhabit the only planet Quarians can live on instead. Why? Well...*shrugs* It's uncertain. It's impossible for the Geth to not understand that they displaced the entire Quarian home world. Whether they understand the implications...*shrugs* That's anyone's guess. One more thing is...what if Humans in real life were the Quarians? Quarians never even broke the anti-AI research laws. They didn't really do much that we don't do today in real life. They used robots as slaves? Hey, guess what? We do too. They created a world-wide network for the geth to connect to and download increasingly complex sets of instructions. Well...yeah, we do that as well. So what would happen if one day Skynet came into existence. Would you just say "Oh, sorry, our bad. Here, kill me, I deserve it."?

^
Win

TALK to legion they DONT live on the quarian homeworld they live in a space station and they take care of the quarian homewold incase the "creators" come back

[Tahleron1]

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

[Tahleron1]

Btw, Aren't Rachni ships actual rachni? I got the impression their ships were one of the rachni breeds the queen can spit out, they grow from eggs, quite literally, lol.

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[sunovafm]

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

[Lightice_av]

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

This isn't really the case either. The geth are not a hive mind; they are a mind hive. They're not one mind in a billion bodies. They're a gestalt consciousness with billions of minds in far fewer bodies and mainframes. Each mind is very simple, barely deserving the name, but together they produce higher forms of cognition. But they're not a single, uniform entity. They have variations in opinion, they have something akin to "individuality", even though it's shared by thousands of minds, instead of individual ones. That's why the Heretics came to being; they wouldn't have existed if the geth were simply a hive mind.

Btw, Aren't Rachni ships actual rachni? I got the impression their ships were one of the rachni breeds the queen can spit out, they grow from eggs, quite literally, lol.

No. Rachni aren't Zerg. Their ships are mechanical, just as everybody else's.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 17 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Tahleron1]

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

[sunovafm]

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

point taken there (epsecialy since it would be incredably idiotic to not back up before that)

but the geth are still alive and still have emotions

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 05:43 .

[Sphynx118]

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

Yes it does mean exactly that he died-.- Dude stop. I dont like it either but thats how it is.
 
He died and they didnt make some archive somewhere. If you want him in me 3 then dont get him killed. Simple

[GenericPlayer2]

I think of the Quarians as the bad guys. It became much clearer to me when I took Legion on board the Migrant Fleet. Qwib Qwib is pretty much the only Quarian I admire.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
OK guys, if you seriously want to hijack this thread, I'm with you.

So. I knew that crap about "sour yellow note". That's why I called it far-fetched. Until now I didn't know about the Illium "representative". Good job, BioWare. This is truly epic. A giant bug escapes undetected from a snowball planet and in two years starts flying around in starships of own making. And after that somebody finds Cerberus' apparent improvement between ME & ME2 implausible. This Rachni thing trumps even talimance in its ridiculousness and bonethrowingness.

Now, why I think it quite unbelievable that it was Sovereign that poked the Rachni into war. It simply had no reason to summon the Reaper invasion at that time. Galactic civilization was in its early stage od development then, not ripe enough to get reaped.  Even Citadel had been discovered only a couple of centuries prior, and relatively few Mass relays were activated. It simply does not make sense.

And again, attributing every the major stir in the Galaxy to the Reapers? This smells bad. It stinks in fact. It's like saying it was the Satan who started Napoleonic wars, World War 1 and World War 2 directly by posessing Napoleon, Kaiser and Hitler respectively. I think even pepole who believe in the reality of Satan won't say that.

You're just in denial, no matter what you want to believe the narrative and game does strongly suggest that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars. You can make your own suppositions if you want "Sovreign wouldn't want to Reap the galaxy yet,etc.".

[Tahleron1]

Sphynx118 wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

Yes it does mean exactly that he died-.- Dude stop. I dont like it either but thats how it is.
 
He died and they didnt make some archive somewhere. If you want him in me 3 then dont get him killed. Simple

Tbh, I have doubts they'll include many if any of the me2 companions as playable in 3, and if they do it will only be a couple, more along the lines of Wrex, but Legion is simple to write in (hey you've got a really high chance of dying, but don't consider uploading yourself...)

[Sphynx118]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I think of the Quarians as the bad guys. It became much clearer to me when I took Legion on board the Migrant Fleet. Qwib Qwib is pretty much the only Quarian I admire.

I got that feeling after hearing legions recording of the first time a geth asked if it had a soul and the its quarian master was got scared.
They early geth were just like children lol..How can you attack that?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

Legin specifically said that he has been isolated for the most of 2 years, that is why he has been developing individuality and emotions... due to his isolation. He connects with the collective time-to-time but he has never backed himself up.

Sorry, criticize it as much as you want but if Legion dies in the final mission, he won't be back in ME3. 

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 17 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[Llandaryn]

That's a leading question, but my empathy is towards the Geth. The Quarians struck first. The only thing I don't like about Tali is her insistance that her people were right to try to commit genocide.

[Lightice_av]

I think of the Quarians as the bad guys.

They're not bad guys. They're people whose ancestors screwed up and paniced, and lost their homeworld as a result. It's understandable that the bitterness over it remains strong in their culture.

Pity that if Legion is to be taken at face value, they could get the damn place back just by apologising and asking nicely. Admiral Koris vas Qwib Qwib is a douchebad, but one with a good brain in his head.

[Sphynx118]

Tahleron1 wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

also the geth have emotion they just cant explain them

they fear death (or they would not have fought back)
they show admiration (look at them trying to find you and legion using our armour)
they show curiosity (there experiments with fales informing about stars and on jacobs loyalty mission)

the thing with the geth is they're a single consciousness taking part in billions of platforms, it's like a communal hivemind.

Thing is, if Legion was destroyed, the natural geth response would be to build another 1000+ platform and reupload his archived programs and send him back (in fact it makes a really easy story element if he dies in your me2).

legions death "uploading arcival copy .... NO CARRIER!, NO CARRIER!, NO car"
so he did die if he died

That doesn't mean they don't have an archival copy before he went thru the omega 4 replay, he'd lost what, 2 hours of records?

Yes it does mean exactly that he died-.- Dude stop. I dont like it either but thats how it is.
 
He died and they didnt make some archive somewhere. If you want him in me 3 then dont get him killed. Simple

Tbh, I have doubts they'll include many if any of the me2 companions as playable in 3, and if they do it will only be a couple, more along the lines of Wrex, but Legion is simple to write in (hey you've got a really high chance of dying, but don't consider uploading yourself...)

That would make one of the choices in the endmission obsolete. If legion cant die then its no point keeping him alive. Bioware wouldnt shoot themself in the foot like that

Modifié par Sphynx118, 17 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[Computron2000]

The problem with associating sentience with the geth is that even the word sentience is not hard defined. We can attribute sentience = awareness, but what is awareness? We can attribute sentience = consciousness, but what is consciousness.



many things can be made as faux approximations.

For example, aiko (http://www.thesun.co...icle2042669.ece) supposedly feels pain but that is merely a programmed rection to X newtons of force on to the skin detectors.



But on the same coin, our own ability to feel pain is the application of X newtons of force onto our skin, in turn detected by the nervous system and translated through chemical releases into pain.



Without the base definition of sentience (never explained in ME if i remember) and an ability to compare the geth to it, are the geth sentient cannot be ruled true or false.



Legion explains that he has a thousand odd programs running at the same time, effectively one could make a faux appromixation of a human with enough programs and powerful enough hardware.



The geth reproduction sequence (if at all) is also never explained. If programs making programs is all there is to it, we can already do that today. The problem lies in that can the geth make programs more complex than the originals without merely finetuning performance, utilization of existing code for new functions or improving hardware, that is, do they have "imagination" or "creativity"



The entire problem is unsolvable in ME until we can get a definition of what is definied as sentience by the galactic races.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The entire problem is unsolvable in ME until we can get a definition of what is definied as sentience by the galactic races.

Don't bother, everyone including the Quarians consider the Geth sapient beings. Arguing that the definition isn't clearly given is moot.