549 réponses à ce sujet

[sunovafm]

Lightice_av wrote...

I think of the Quarians as the bad guys.

They're not bad guys. They're people whose ancestors screwed up and paniced, and lost their homeworld as a result. It's understandable that the bitterness over it remains strong in their culture.
Pity that if Legion is to be taken at face value, they could get the damn place back just by apologising and asking nicely. Admiral Koris vas Qwib Qwib is a douchebad, but one with a good brain in his head.

i take him at face value because at his curent level of emotional devolpment i dont know if he understands the conept of a lie

also i dont like quib quib but he is the only quarian on that d@mn ship i can agree with

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 06:02 .

[Lightice_av]

The geth reproduction sequence (if at all) is also never explained. If programs making programs is all there is to it, we can already do that today. The problem lies in that can the geth make programs more complex than the originals without merely finetuning performance, utilization of existing code for new functions or improving hardware, that is, do they have "imagination" or "creativity"

They've shown themselves capable of designing entirely new types of "mobile platforms" (i.e. bodies), and they have clearly developed psychologically, as well. Compare the way the early geth talked according to Legion's archives to Legion today.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

[quote]Caughill wrote...

"Turning off" is not the same as murder. A computer can be turned back on. An organic can not be unmurdered (the Lazarus Project aside).[/quote]Perhaps so, but if the Quarians messed with their memory and programming it could be said to be murder in the sense that something was loss. Or at least putting something in a coma, would you want to be forced into a coma for people to do whoknowswhat while you're asleep?
[/quote]

[Computron2000]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The entire problem is unsolvable in ME until we can get a definition of what is definied as sentience by the galactic races.

Don't bother, everyone including the Quarians consider the Geth sapient beings. Arguing that the definition isn't clearly given is moot.

No, i am pointing out that the definition of sentience in ME can differ from what people in RL understand as sentience (which is still up in the air). Without a baseline you cannot conclude that they are sentient as understood by us now. By some definitions of sentience, aiko is sentient. Do you think she is?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Computron2000 wrote...
By some definitions of sentience, aiko is sentient. Do you think she is?

WTF is Aiko?

[sunovafm]

if by aiko you mean EDI then yes i think she is sentient she even talks about fellings after joker removes her limitations

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[Tahleron1]

Computron2000 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The entire problem is unsolvable in ME until we can get a definition of what is definied as sentience by the galactic races.

Don't bother, everyone including the Quarians consider the Geth sapient beings. Arguing that the definition isn't clearly given is moot.

No, i am pointing out that the definition of sentience in ME can differ from what people in RL understand as sentience (which is still up in the air). Without a baseline you cannot conclude that they are sentient as understood by us now. By some definitions of sentience, aiko is sentient. Do you think she is?

ME never defines sentience, dogs have sentience

[Lightice_av]

if by aiko you mean EDI then yes i think she is sentient she even talks about fellings after joker removes her limitations

Aiko is a real life android project. And no, "she" isn't sentient. No advanced learning capabilities, at all. I'm not sure if I'd consider it an equal of an ant, intellectually. There are already more advanced AI projects in existence, but we're still barely in the rodent levels. The advances made in the recent years have been fairly impressive, though.

[sunovafm]

wait *hits head* im an ai major how could i forget aiko

also edi dose display some learning and shows feelings twords the end of the game she defenitly is sentient

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 06:13 .

[Tahleron1]

isn't an AI by definition a sapient machine?

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

The quarians attacked first, the quarians still want to fight whereas the geth want peace.



Even though he's an a** for going after Tali Admiral Koris is right, the quarians started the war and need to settle with the geth to regain their home world.

[Lightice_av]

isn't an AI by definition a sapient machine?

In real life? No. In real life there is a distinction between weak AI and strong AI. Weak AI just does something that used to need a human to do it. These days your car's breaks are likely to have a weak AI in them. A strong AI should be able of all the cognitive functions that human is. That's still decades away.



In the Mass Effect universe AI refers to sentient machines, however, as the term VI is made up to describe the weak AI programs.

[sunovafm]

artifical inteligence programs have the capibility of learning not by definition sapient i defenitly would not consider my robot that i have been building as a project sapient but it uses what i have learned so far about ai to adapt to the situation using a basic set of things i have defined for it

[Tahleron1]

sunovafm wrote...

artifical inteligence programs have the capibility of learning not by definition sapient i defenitly would not consider my robot that i have been building as a project sapient but it uses what i have learned so far about ai to adapt to the situation using a basic set of things i have defined for it

Yes, but aren't they using the more philosophical viewpoint in me (as opposed to the professional viewpoint)?

yeah as lightice said, vi vs ai

To me it seems like attaching ai to "weak ai" is sort of like calling someone with a 3 month course experience in my field a "financial consultant", because calling them a financial schmuck wouldn't be very conducive

Modifié par Tahleron1, 17 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Computron2000]

Lightice_av wrote...
They've shown themselves capable of designing entirely new types of "mobile platforms" (i.e. bodies), and they have clearly developed psychologically, as well. Compare the way the early geth talked according to Legion's archives to Legion today.

This isn't really as difficult as it might seem. There are programs that mimic the evolution of walking, that is you give the program base parameters and let it run. It will resolve itself into a model of 2 legged walking from a position lying down after trying all permutations and combinations. No additional human aid required. This is the reason why i'm more concerned that do they mean just an improved robot? Better sensors? Better fuel economy?

Building a better mechanical body using a self recursive program should not be hard. At the base though they are programs. Reproduction for them must mean programs, not just a new body. With programs, you have a fixed amount of code meaning up to a point, sloting in pieces of code from program A-Z has no further permutations and combinations.

For speech, we need to remember that the geth get smarter by networking, much like parallel processing used in super computers today to increase processing power. With sufficient processing power, fluid speech is not improbable. I liken the effect to the same as in you played ME2 on a 386SX PC (lets assume you can do it) vs a modern quad core. Having jerking graphics, slow response, etc are all expected.

Modifié par Computron2000, 17 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[Vanaer]

Mweah, the response of the Geth is logical. I hope the quarians will make peace with them.

[sunovafm]

Tahleron1 wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

artifical inteligence programs have the capibility of learning not by definition sapient i defenitly would not consider my robot that i have been building as a project sapient but it uses what i have learned so far about ai to adapt to the situation using a basic set of things i have defined for it

Yes, but aren't they using the more philosophical viewpoint in me (as opposed to the professional viewpoint)?

yeah as lightice said, vi vs ai

yes i supose they are but even then i still consider the geth and edi alive and sapient

i personaly even after study have yet to find as much difrence in humans and machines as people like to belive there is so imho ai could become sophistocated enough to be alive it just has not reached that point irl yet

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 06:22 .

[Computron2000]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...
By some definitions of sentience, aiko is sentient. Do you think she is?

WTF is Aiko?

one iteration of aiko http://www.thesun.co...icle2042669.ece

[Lightice_av]

Building a better mechanical body using a self recursive program should not be hard.

Improving specs of an existing design wouldn't be hard, but designing completely new ones requires creativty. And especially the more advanced models have aesthetic choices that wouldn't make sense from a purely functional standpoint.

For speech, we need to remember that the geth get smarter by networking, much like parallel processing used in super computers today to increase processing power. With sufficient processing power, fluid speech is not improbable.

I was referring to the psychology behind speech. The unit in the recording was struggling with every concept it handled. Compare that to the fluid comprehension and intelligent responses Legion makes despite of many concepts that are alien to it.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Computron2000 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...
By some definitions of sentience, aiko is sentient. Do you think she is?

WTF is Aiko?

one iteration of aiko http://www.thesun.co...icle2042669.ece

Never link me to such a scary thing ever again.

[Computron2000]

Lightice_av wrote...
Improving specs of an existing design wouldn't be hard, but designing completely new ones requires creativty. And especially the more advanced models have aesthetic choices that wouldn't make sense from a purely functional standpoint.

True but only if the original geth did not already include programs that were already doing task optimizations. Using those to create a visually new geth would not be hard (example one program optimizing for qurian road travel when networked with the geth, determines that wheels are better for speed, and we see a wheeled geth)

I can't really say if they used aesthetics as part of their design. Having 2 legged geth is not efficient, that is obvious, but i put that down as BW not wanting to handle hovercraft/4 legged/multi wheeled geth. The flashlight head might have a reason for it but again i put it down to BW wanting memorable villans

If you're referring to legion using your armor, his behavior could happen if one of his programs was based of comparisons (eg a combat target piority program). Mixed with his other programs, he could come to the conclusion that Shepard is a high effectiveness, high efficiency creature and should be copied.

Lightice_av wrote...
I was referring to the psychology behind speech. The unit in the recording was struggling with every concept it handled. Compare that to the fluid comprehension and intelligent responses Legion makes despite of many concepts that are alien to it.

I doubt Legion still has an answer to the original question. Its understandable that original geth has problems with illogical concepts when forced onto them (i believe the recording came up because the geth read a religious book).

From what i remember, Legions answers to most questions derives from his understanding of the words themselves. He has the ability to say he "does not know" and request further information and the ability to base conclusion based on statistics. I do not think he understands "why" but uses historical statistics to conclude and simply accepts that such responses.

[Computron2000]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Never link me to such a scary thing ever again.

All right

She's coming for you though and soon....

Modifié par Computron2000, 17 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Lightice_av]

I can't really say if they used aesthetics as part of their design. Having 2 legged geth is not efficient, that is obvious, but i put that down as BW not wanting to handle hovercraft/4 legged/multi wheeled geth. The flashlight head might have a reason for it but again i put it down to BW wanting memorable villans

I'm referring to the bright colours, smooth lines and decorative fins on some models. There is no reason for the iPod aesthetics of a Geth Colossus, for example, or the red paintjob of the geth destroyers.

From what i remember, Legions answers to most questions derives from his understanding of the words themselves. He has the ability to say he "does not know" and request further information and the ability to base conclusion based on statistics. I do not think he understands "why" but uses historical statistics to conclude and simply accepts that such responses.

During Legion's loyalty mission, you get to comment how the geth are "just machines". Legion skillfully turns the insult into a complement, stating that the geth are indeed extremely different from organic races, and assuming that everybody is the same even in the positive sense results in racism. That shows quite sophisticated cognitive capabilities, in my opinion.

[CmdrFenix83]

Cosmicinator wrote...

Here is an objective view of the situation, to help everyone grasp what is happening.

A spacefaring race create a race of rudimentary robotic servants.
Servants begin to gain sentience, and ask their masters peacefully many philosophical questions.
Creator race responds by attempting to effectively commit genocide upon servants.
Servants utilize self-defence, leading to a full scale war.
Servants repel masters from their home planet, and all nearby colonies.
Creators forced to be nomads, conspiring for 300 years to take down servants, and reclaim their lands.

I don't know about you, but I think I know who is right here....

That's not objective, that's Geth perspective.  Objective would be...

A spacefaring race create a race of rudimentary robotic servants.
Servants begin to ask questions about their existence.
Creator race is terrified and responds by attempting to shut down their *machines*.
Servants are further developed mentally than the creators realize and defend themselves.
Servants repel masters from their home planet, and all nearby colonies, slaughtering billions.
Creators forced to be nomads, suffering for 300 years and working on plans reclaim their lands.

I don't know about you, but if my computer started talking to me on its' own and asked questions about its' existence, I'd freak out and pull its' plug too.  In fact, I almost guarantee if any appliance you had started to do such things on their own, you would react the same way.  It's a faulty machine, plain and simple. 

I do not fault the Quarians for attempting to shut down the Geth.  However, I do side with Admiral vas Qwib Qwib there, that the Geth had every right to defend themselves as well, and have done everything possible to facilitate peace between the two over what was really a horrific mistake.  Hindsight is 20/20 afterall.

[Agamemnon2589]

Veriso wrote...

So, after playing through ME2, talking to Legion and Tali and so on, it seems to me that the geth's actions are mostly justified. The way I see it, Tali's argument against the geth in conversations throughout both games pretty much boils down to: "So, we had these slaves. But then they started to think, and question things! They didn't actually do anything hostile, but come on, they were totally thinking about it. So, naturally we tried to kill them all. Only it didn't work, and now, for some reason, they're being mean to us. After careful consideration, I think the best approach is to kill them all and never attempt any kind of diplomatic resolution."

I thought that was a fairly obvious message,
but on browsing these forums I've seen a lot of people who, having
played the game, still think the geth are essentially 'bad guys'. I
haven't seen any topics specifically discussing the issue, though, and
'moral grey areas' like this are what I love most about Bioware games
and good RPGs in general. Of course, there's a little more depth to it than my strawman-Tali presents, but basically my point is that everything I've seen suggests that Legion's geth have always acted quite reasonably. Certainly more so than the Quarians, and more so than most organic species would have if placed in their position. The Heretics, as explained in the game, are a separate faction.  I'm referring only to Legion's faction, and to judge them by the actions of the heretics would be analogous to judging present-day humanity by the actions of the North Korean government or some such. I'd be very disappointed if Mass Effect 3 railroaded the player into supporting the Quarians against the Geth, but based on the way this game treats the subject, I'm confident that won't happen.

Anyway, I just thought it was an interesting point for discussion, I hope it catches on. Who agrees, who doesn't?

Totally agree. I made absolutely certain that both Tali and Legion survived in all of my playthroughs because I'm hoping for some kind of quarian/geth alliance or forgiveness talk to take place in ME3. *Crosses fingers*