549 réponses à ce sujet

[The Governator]

Lightice_av wrote...

Darwinist?

No -isms for me, especially ones named after people - science speaks for itself. You're not going to get to religious arguments, are you?

Heh, no.  Your responses are intelligent, even if I do not agree with them.  I am not seeking to villify you.  Just wondering why you feel the way you do about the geth.  Logically, I get what you are pointing out, but I cannot wrap my mode of thinking around that idea.  I just cannot accept it, and...I was wondering how you could.  That's all.

[Kenshen]

It seemed to me that the Quarians are only interested in taking back there homeworld. I am not sure if the geth treasure that world as there actual home now but I can see where they wouldn't want to give it back just because the Quarians tried to kill them. Can an AI feel spite?? I could see in the next game where the Quarians delevlop a weapon or viruis that will destroy the geth and it will be Shepard who either helps them finish off the geth or tries to stop them from completing that task.

[Doug84]

sunovafm wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Darwinist?

whats a darwinist

Its the term created by creationists to try and make the Theory of Evolution sound like a religion instead of established scientific fact.

The Governator wrote...

Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

Again, he's not a Darwinist. If you have to call him an -ist, Evolutionist is the term.

[Lightice_av]

One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist. He does not subscribe to religion at all. We respect one another a great deal. Just curious, nothing more.

The term "Darwinist" is in itself pejorative. It implies that one man invented it all, when he was just the first one to solve several difficult issues in a theory that had existed generations before him. It's like calling gravity "Newtonism" or relativity "Einsteinism". Research results speak for themselves; beliefs are irrelevant to them.

[sunovafm]

The Governator wrote...

sunovafm wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Clever, even compelling, but I just cannot accept an AI as sapient. I would have to experience it (forgive the term) organically, not through a game or through the words of another.

We're not here to debate about the realities of artificial intelligence. Personally I say that there is no inherent difference between a human brain and artificial construct of equal complexity if the functions and mechanisms are essentially the same, but that's not an issue.

Mass Effect is a work of fiction. In this fictional work artificial intelligence is real and really sentient, regardless of your opinion of how things are in reality.

Darwinist?

whats a darwinist

Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

understood and i would not call my self that right now i belive in evoltion but if you managed to pull up more evidince that earth was manufctured by a race i would belive that my belifes are simple i belive in what has the most proof the thing we can be most ertian about and since i studied genitics for a semester before going into artifical intelegience i got to see adaptation first hand wich prety much proves evelution imho

[IceColdFulcrum]

I find it odd that one cannot accept an AI as sentient, afterall the entire point of the 'i' in AI is the capacity to create a thinking machine.



Logically though you cannot prove sentience in a being, there is no way to prove the Geth are sentient, as there is no test that skeptics cannot dismiss via the "they were programed to say that". Which is a double edged sword because no human can prove that another human is sentient, ala "that human just appears sentient, he isn't really".



In my mind, the Geth are quite sentient.

[Annora]

The Governator wrote...
Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

Well, that explains why you're unable to accept synthetics as sapient life. if God made us in His image, then wouldn't it stand to reason that anything we make is also in His image? A machine gaining self-awareness (or in the case of the Geth, group-awareness) would just be part of His design, no?

Modifié par Anastassia, 17 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[The Governator]

IceColdFulcrum wrote...

I find it odd that one cannot accept an AI as sentient, afterall the entire point of the 'i' in AI is the capacity to create a thinking machine.

Logically though you cannot prove sentience in a being, there is no way to prove the Geth are sentient, as there is no test that skeptics cannot dismiss via the "they were programed to say that". Which is a double edged sword because no human can prove that another human is sentient, ala "that human just appears sentient, he isn't really".

In my mind, the Geth are quite sentient.

There was evidence of it in the first game, but after hearing Legion, I am skeptical at best and contemptuous at worst.  I think of geth like the (oh god, here I go) borg.  I hate the borg.  Still, when I saw Picard go savage I was displeased with the writers for their vision of the character.  

I could be far more easily convinced that as a whole the geth could represent an (singular) intelligent entity, but separate I view them as nothing more than parts of a whole. 

[The Governator]

Anastassia wrote...

The Governator wrote...
Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

Well, that explains why you're unable to accept synthetics as sapient life. if God made us in His image, then wouldn't it stand to reason that anything we make is also in His image? A machine gaining self-awareness (or in the case of the Geth, group-awareness) would just be part of His design, no?

Yeah...it ain't perfect, but that's my perspective and why I really cannot dive right in, ya know?

I don't know about the 'if we make it then God made it' thing.  But, I am sorry I brought up the religion thing.  It's a sore spot with most.  But it's also some of what I am so it's hard to sanitize that from my thinking. 

[Lightice_av]

I could be far more easily convinced that as a whole the geth could represent an (singular) intelligent entity, but separate I view them as nothing more than parts of a whole.

This isn't quite the case, but you're not entirely in the wrong track. Legion, as its name implies, is not one but many - over a thousand minds gestalted in one body. Individually these "minds" are simple and weak, but through their interaction they become more than the sum of their parts. They hold opinions and perceptions individually, but synchronize memories, limiting how far they can evolve separately. It's not a hive mind, not really - they couldn't disagree if that was the case - but they can't exist separate from each other, either.

[sunovafm]

The Governator wrote...

Anastassia wrote...

The Governator wrote...
Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

Well, that explains why you're unable to accept synthetics as sapient life. if God made us in His image, then wouldn't it stand to reason that anything we make is also in His image? A machine gaining self-awareness (or in the case of the Geth, group-awareness) would just be part of His design, no?

Yeah...it ain't perfect, but that's my perspective and why I really cannot dive right in, ya know?

I don't know about the 'if we make it then God made it' thing.  But, I am sorry I brought up the religion thing.  It's a sore spot with most.  But it's also some of what I am so it's hard to sanitize that from my thinking. 

not a sore spot with me because i have always belived as humans we have the right to belive what we wanted if some one walked up to me and said tey thought we were created by a race of giant space fish i would exchange evidince with them but i realy could care less what they belive in the long run every ones mind is there own only one thing maters imho and that is is there idea physicaly posible and since a god suposadly exist out side our concepts of what is posible i have never dismised that i just dont have enough proof for that to be my major belife if other people belive its fine by me

Modifié par sunovafm, 17 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[The Governator]

Lightice_av wrote...

I could be far more easily convinced that as a whole the geth could represent an (singular) intelligent entity, but separate I view them as nothing more than parts of a whole.

This isn't quite the case, but you're not entirely in the wrong track. Legion, as its name implies, is not one but many - over a thousand minds gestalted in one body. Individually these "minds" are simple and weak, but through their interaction they become more than the sum of their parts. They hold opinions and perceptions individually, but synchronize memories, limiting how far they can evolve separately. It's not a hive mind, not really - they couldn't disagree if that was the case - but they can't exist separate from each other, either.

Oy...there is something I want to bring up here, but I really don't want to go that route.  But there is an analog that fits what you describe almost perfectly.  It's also VERY ironic.

[Doug84]

The Governator wrote...

IceColdFulcrum wrote...

I
find it odd that one cannot accept an AI as sentient, afterall the
entire point of the 'i' in AI is the capacity to create a thinking
machine.

Logically though you cannot prove sentience in a
being, there is no way to prove the Geth are sentient, as there is no
test that skeptics cannot dismiss via the "they were programed to say
that". Which is a double edged sword because no human can prove that
another human is sentient, ala "that human just appears sentient, he
isn't really".

In my mind, the Geth are quite sentient.

There
was evidence of it in the first game, but after hearing Legion, I am
skeptical at best and contemptuous at worst.  I think of geth like the
(oh god, here I go) borg.  I hate the borg.  Still, when I saw Picard
go savage I was displeased with the writers for their vision of the
character.  

I could be far more easily convinced that as a
whole the geth could represent an (singular) intelligent entity, but
separate I view them as nothing more than parts of a whole. 

I don't see the Borg/Geth connection...? I mean, ok, they both use Synethic body parts, but the borg are an organic/synethic blend, the Geth are wholy synethic. And the Geth, in so far as we've seen, have no desire to go off and conquer every race of interest in their path.

The Governator wrote...

Anastassia wrote...

The Governator wrote...
Someone who subscribes to theories of evolution.  I am a creationist or at worst I subscribe to 'intelligent design'.  That does not mean my query was pejorative.  I was asking for a perspective.  One of my closest friends in life is a Darwinist.  He does not subscribe to religion at all.  We respect one another a great deal.  Just curious, nothing more.

Well, that explains why you're unable to accept synthetics as sapient life. if God made us in His image, then wouldn't it stand to reason that anything we make is also in His image? A machine gaining self-awareness (or in the case of the Geth, group-awareness) would just be part of His design, no?

Yeah...it ain't perfect, but that's my perspective and why I really cannot dive right in, ya know?

I don't know about the 'if we make it then God made it' thing.  But, I am sorry I brought up the religion thing.  It's a sore spot with most.  But it's also some of what I am so it's hard to sanitize that from my thinking. 

Well...ok. I guess I was abit of a reactionary there. I'm just sick of people who don't believe in evolution trying to degrade it in the social consciousness by going "Darwinism".

But as for the Geth... is it not possible God gave man (or in this case the Quarians) the capability to make new life themselves?

[CmdrFenix83]

Llandaryn wrote...

That's a leading question, but my empathy is towards the Geth. The Quarians struck first. The only thing I don't like about Tali is her insistance that her people were right to try to commit genocide.

Turning off a malfunctioning appliance is not genocide.  They believed that's what they were doing to prevent them from all gaining sapience.  Yes, it turned out they had developed far faster than the Quarians had known, and they moved to prevent their own deaths.  In hindsight, yeah, what they were doing was wrong.  However, at that moment in time, they didn't know *all* Geth were sapient, only that some of them were becomming so.

[CmdrFenix83]

Tahleron1 wrote...

I'm sort of curious how you consider your view objective when you even state you have an arbitrary phobia?

The six lines I edited from the quoted post were a subjective account.  The quote stated that the Quarians attempted genocide.  In hindsight, yes.  However, they through they were shutting down faulty machines to prevent further damage.  They weren't willingly committing genocide, they were stopping a malfunction.  In actuality, it was the Geth that went to defend themselves that decided all Quarians were a threat and attempted to commit genocide on them.  I was just relaying 'facts' in that part.  The paragraphs following were indeed my own opinion however and not objective, if that's what you're asking.

[CmdrFenix83]

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

The problem with equating the geth to toasters or really any appliance is that our appliances don't have any form of intelligence. Our computers are the only thing close enough to make that comparison. The geth were created to have enough intelligence and adaptability to be able to solve problems on their own, which is why it is understandable that the quarians completely freaked out at the idea of them becoming sentient. There had to be some fear of that happening beforehand anyway. So while the quarian response wasn't the right one, I can understand why they made the choice they did.

Exactly.

[Lightice_av]

I'm really looking forward to stopping their war in ME3. They should share the homeworld and act like father and son.

At least Legion claims that the geth don't even live on the planet; they just look after it, but mostly live in space. Theoretically the quarians could come back any time, and not even worry about geth cities and infrastructure in their world - they just need to get the politics out of the way. I too hope that we can get both sides to see reason in ME3. I don't think they'll ever be friends, or want to live together, but it's enough if they manage to tolerate each other's existence, and fight against the Reapers.

[Rip504]

OP has a limited thought process.I have encountered this before.

Geth are Heritics Heritics are Geth,they belive in diff ways to better their race.Geth rewriting to Heritics to belive what they belive.Wrong.

Geth killing millions upon millions in "self-defense"Wrong.

Legion does not speak for all Geth,just the Geth sent out to find Shepard so no you don't know much about the Geth,they tend to disagree,so while some may favor peace,some may favor war.Just like the Quarians.

Legion scanning Tali's omni-tool without permission.Wrong and aggresive.

How did he know she had the data she had on her omni-tool?He scanned it against her will a invasion of privacy.

Legion didn't try to talk it over with Tali,no he stole it and was sending it back to the other Geth,which as Shepard states most likly would have caused a war.And if you side with Tali during this,Legion states the creators will pay for this.

So it depends on how you play the game,and how you look at it.There is more then one way to play or look at something.

Geth are not innocent,neither are the Quarians,in this case I will say both are wrong and neither are right.

[Lightice_av]

Geth killing millions upon millions in "self-defense"Wrong.

They were still primitive at that time. All they knew was that they were attacked, and had to defend themselves. Back then they probably didn't even know what "genocide" really means. I don't think they'd do the same thing again, though they're still quite willing to fight for their existence.

Geth are Heritics Heritics are Geth,they belive in diff ways to better their race.Geth rewriting to Heritics to belive what they belive.Wrong.

The other option is either to kill them all, or accept their brainwashing instead, resulting in all the geth becoming slaves to the Reapers. I believe that Legion gave you the final say because the geth don't want to make that kind of morally ambigious decision for themselves.

Legion scanning Tali's omni-tool without permission.Wrong and aggresive.

Legion and Tali have good reasons to be suspicious of each other. Legion was right; Tali had information about the quarians planning to invade the geth space. Legion is protecting its species by stealing the data. In the larger picture this act is also making the war more likely, but from Legion's perspective there is no telling if it isn't already inevitable.

Geth are not innocent,neither are the Quarians,in this case I will say both are wrong and neither are right.

Both have certainly done horrible things to each other. But it's difficult to saddle the blame on either party, either. Currently the geth are more right than the quarians, as they only wish to live in peace, and will only retaliate if threatened, while many (most?) quarians want to aggressively take over their old homeworld, and take bloody revenge on the geth. That's not acceptable, and we need to help them find a better way.

[Basher of Glory]

Lightice_av wrote...

I could be far more easily convinced that as a whole the geth could represent an (singular) intelligent entity, but separate I view them as nothing more than parts of a whole.

This isn't quite the case, but you're not entirely in the wrong track. Legion, as its name implies, is not one but many - over a thousand minds gestalted in one body. Individually these "minds" are simple and weak, but through their interaction they become more than the sum of their parts. They hold opinions and perceptions individually, but synchronize memories, limiting how far they can evolve separately. It's not a hive mind, not really - they couldn't disagree if that was the case - but they can't exist separate from each other, either.

Well, we humans are quite the same, aren't we?

Example:
When I wake up in the morning one voice in me tells me to turn around and sleep for another hour or two. Then the next voice tells me "if you do that, you will be late at work". The first voice replies "so what? I'll work longer in the evening!" A third voice comes up: "This would not correspond to your contract with your employer. You signed it, hence you are obliged to start work at 08:00 am and end it at 17:00 pm."
A German psychologist called this "The Inner Team" (Prof. Dr. Friedemann Freiherr Schulz von Thun). A lot of characters in us are permanently in a conflict about our actions. One time character X wins, the next time it might be character Y, another time perhaps Z and so on.
During our live it can be, that one or two of our "inner teammates" become dominant over the others. Thus, we evolve to "paragons" or "renegades", simply said.
Other persons are not so "lucky", they never evolve to a fairly predictable man / woman, they are always torn apart by their "inner voices", always in chaos.

So I can't see, why the Geth's approach to find a consensus should be wrong.

In our view sapient and sentinent organic life is the pinnacle of evolution. We're just not ready yet to accept other lifeforms. Heck, we aren't even able to accept different opinions / religions / philosophical approaches.

I can just speak for myself, of course, but when my toaster starts to ask me about it's purpose and if it has a soul, I might be shocked in the first moment, but then I'd happily answer the questions, although having my ulterior motives, too. Admittedly I'd like a sapient toaster, but finally I would want it to continue making my toasts, right?

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 17 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[Rip504]

Wow since Admiral Xen states if the Admiral replacing Tali's father favors peace,the board would most likely vote for peace.The Quarians are undecided.

\\The Geth did stand up against the Quarians it was a war,If war was wrong in your eyes then both parties are wrong.



Geth didn't understand is the childish comment one can make.But they understood what the Quarians were doing as wrong?They understood war,love,soul,peace,these are only words with defintions. Geth knew the killing of millions was as wrong as Quarians killing the Geth.It's the same concept reverse the roles.

If the Geth didn't understand right from wrong why did they fight back?Because they understood the concept of self preservation?exactly what the Quarians were doing?I don't understand how you can honestly favor peace,but justify millions of Quarian deaths at the hands of the Geth.



For the simply self defense idiots out there.If you were to run up on me with a gun and try to kill me,and I stuck a cherry bomb in your throat and blew you up.I would go to jail for murder.may be 2nd or 3rd what not,but It would still be murder using excesive force,self defense or not.

[cancausecancer]

Veriso wrote...

 "So, we had these slaves. But then they started to think, and question things! They didn't actually do anything hostile, but come on, they were totally thinking about it. So, naturally we tried to kill them all. Only it didn't work, and now, for some reason, they're being mean to us. After careful consideration, I think the best approach is to kill them all and never attempt any kind of diplomatic resolution."

I support destroying/disabling the Geth. If we give slaves freedom then we have to use ourselves as slaves to do the crap labour. Good people can't be good if there are no bad people to be better than.

[Lmaoboat]

cancausecancer wrote...

Veriso wrote...



"So, we had these slaves. But then they started to think, and question things! They didn't actually do anything hostile, but come on, they were totally thinking about it. So, naturally we tried to kill them all. Only it didn't work, and now, for some reason, they're being mean to us. After careful consideration, I think the best approach is to kill them all and never attempt any kind of diplomatic resolution."

I support destroying/disabling the Geth. If we give slaves freedom then we have to use ourselves as slaves to do the crap labour. Good people can't be good if there are no bad people to be better than.

So we can't be good unless we enslave those we see as inferior? The South will rise again, amirite?