148 réponses à ce sujet

[Daeion]

Medet wrote...

I'm glad I never payed attention to the romances, and found the Kaiden/Ash entity to be the least interesting character in ME1.

I can see how people would be frustrated with the KaiAsh cameo, but I thought the run ins with Liara and Wrex were reasonably well handled.

Wrex was great, and the Liara one is ok if you didn't romance her, otherwise it makes no sense, well actually it makes no sense even if you didn't romance her but w/e.

[Zero9ee]

The big thing here is BioWare's statement(s) that being unfaithful in ME2 will have consequences in ME3, and that it's possible to cheat on the ME1 LIs. This sells the idea that, no matter what we did or did not do in ME2, the ME1 LIs will be in ME3. It's possible to get Garrus and Tali killed, but it's easy enough to rollback your game and obtain any outcome you want have to bring into ME3.



As stated above, Liara's role in ME2 was to ensure Shepard was actually in the game (or should I say story?) at all. And she paid for it, and now has to hunt the Shadow Broker. Kaidan and Ashley fans gets less juice than that, as their Shepard's are railroaded into Cerberus and don't get the option to jack it all in and follow their lovers back to the Alliance. They're stuck (at best) with a hopeful e-mail and a photo. Their lovers don't have a substancial story hook to bring to ME3. They went right back where they came from, back to the Alliance, and fall under "pending".



But big things are moving in the background. The geth can get stronger and find unity. The krogan might get a cure. The quarians might try to wage war on the geth (no matter what you do, actually). The rachni might be out there, in the wings, ready to aid against the Reapers. Dark energy is floating about, rather ominously. And so on, down the line. None of these aspects got major "air time", but were slipped in there, setting things up for the final act.



What we are, therefore, expecting is that BioWare's writers have some idea how all this will come together and get addressed to a suitable and satisfying conclusion in ME3. This includes the LIs from the original game. Granted, most often, when you invent something new, you don't make massive plans for a sequel, so ME1 can stand alone. But ME2 is definately the middle, with ME3 mentioned and planned for. So, no matter what the fanbase is for Tali, Liara, the biotic god or that fraking hampster, these story threads are going to come back. And, knowing BioWare, they might well slap us in the face. In fact, they already did that with Liara, Kaidan and Ashley, so we know they are quite capable of doing that. Plus, as Stanley Woo has pointed out, they can do so whether we like it or not. They will be making the choice, in the end, not us. They can wipe out Tali, Garrus, Thane, or whoever, just as easily as we can in ME2.



No matter what the fanbase is doing by the time ME3 is completed, the one certainty is that Shepard, Kaidan, Ashley and Liara will be there. It's up to you to decide who else makes it, and it's up to BioWare to work out where all these story threads and choices will end up. Have your save games ready, it's gonna be one heck of a ride!

[Nozybidaj]

self edit: done

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 17 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Gar_Logan]

Nozybidaj wrote...
It would be a terrible business
decision at that point for BW to go out of their way trying to
reintroduce these characters at the expense of the new ones.  I don't
believe it will happen.

But that was their plan from the beginning. Every single one of the new ones, including Garrus and Tali can all die. Ashley, Kaidan, and Wrex can die. Liara can't. There is no point in any of the games that she can die. This is by design because the plan from the beginning was to have a large role in ME3.

But I guess you can go ahead and expect the worst. Maybe it's for the best in the slim chance you are right.

[Nozybidaj]

KainrycKarr wrote...


People always say Casey Hudson lies with these statements but he doesn't....you're just interpreting it differently.

That may have been the intent at the begining but things change.  Like I said in two years time, the fan support for these characters will have shrunk to the point that it just won't make any sense to support them.  ME2 made it clear that the old crew is the old crew and that the new crew is "the" crew.  It wouldn't make any sense to upset these new fanbases by giving these characters reduced roles.

I see the original ME LI's serving similar roles to what they did in ME2.  Probably quest givers and one off encounters.  It wouldn't make anything Casey said "not true" but it certainly violates the spirit of what he said.  Of course after saying that the ME1 romances would continue into ME2 and then ME3 I find it rather hard to take anything they say at this point without a grain of salt the size of a Volkswagen.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 17 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[yoshibb]

What annoys me most is that they couldn't just rely on these new supposed deep and interesting characters. They had to go out of their way to make you hate the old ones.

So here's the new romance options, they are great, you'll love them so much you'll be begging to cheat.

That's not happening, you still want to stay faithful, hmm, that's weird. Ok, the old love interests are gonna give you the finger. Liara's gonna pretend nothing happened and Ash/Kaidan are gonna accuse you of being a traitor.

Oh and Shepard has no way to respond to this either unless you think a proper response is "Yo how you been?"

Still not interested in the new guys? Fine, we're bringing back Tali and Garrus too. Never mind that this just proves that we already had interesting characters to begin with.

Honestly, I'm surprised that if in the end you still hadn't gotten with someone that Kelly didn't come up and rape you while you were sleeping, just so Bioware could go haha you cheated!

Modifié par yoshibb, 17 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Nozybidaj]

yoshibb wrote...
 Fine, we're bringing back Tali and Garrus too. Never mind that this just proves that we already had interesting characters to begin with.

That's the worst thing.  These characters were great.  Tali and Garrus and their character development in ME2 was great and shows just a glimpse of what could have been done with these characters if BW had put forth the effort. 

Maybe it is just easier to do new character introductions every game, I'm not a writer, I don't know, but it seems the ME1 cast was unnecessarily taken out of the game.  The entire setup of the game feels like a very contrived reason just to get rid of the older characters.  Obviously BW thinks they have something to gain by removing the old characters from the story, but whatever it is, it never came to fruition.

I will always lament the loss of these characters, the trilogy is lesser for their removal.

[KainrycKarr]

I understand what you're saying. I do. But I do not think giving up is the answer.



There are a LOT of old romance fans. They just aren't very vocal.



I GUARANTEE tali and garrus would not have had such luscious roles in ME2, if there respective fanbases were not vocal.

[Nozybidaj]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I understand what you're saying. I do. But I do not think giving up is the answer.

We can be vocal now, but how long will that last.  There is nothing for these groups to hold onto, there is nothing in ME2 that gives any of them the slightest indication that they actually have anything to look forward to.  There is nothing there to continue building a fan base on with new players that have come into the game.

As the next couple of months pass I guarantee you all but the most ardent of the Liara/Ash/Kaidan supporters will have either moved on from the game or moved on to one of the new LI's.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if by the time we start to hear talk of ME3 that with the loss of old fans and the addition of new fans to the series that characters like Kal'Reegar and Aria will have substantially larger fan bases than any of the old LI's.

[KainrycKarr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

I understand what you're saying. I do. But I do not think giving up is the answer.

We can be vocal now, but how long will that last.  There is nothing for these groups to hold onto, there is nothing in ME2 that gives any of them the slightest indication that they actually have anything to look forward to.  There is nothing there to continue building a fan base on with new players that have come into the game.

As the next couple of months pass I guarantee you all but the most ardent of the Liara/Ash/Kaidan supporters will have either moved on from the game or moved on to one of the new LI's.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if by the time we start to hear talk of ME3 that with the loss of old fans and the addition of new fans to the series that characters like Kal'Reegar and Aria will have substantially larger fan bases than any of the old LI's.

I can't deny it. I'm not in the same boat so I won't pretend to know what's fair or not.

I do hope you are wrong though. Even though i don't like the characters, I for one much prefer closure in a story.

[Nozybidaj]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I can't deny it. I'm not in the same boat so I won't pretend to know what's fair or not.

I do hope you are wrong though. Even though i don't like the characters, I for one much prefer closure in a story.

I would have prefered continuation myself, but I know what you meant.

[silentstephi]

yoshibb wrote...

What annoys me most is that they couldn't just rely on these new supposed deep and interesting characters. They had to go out of their way to make you hate the old ones.

 

But... I don't hate the old ones?  I actually like Liara MORE in ME2.  She's lost some of the innocent shine.  She's seen what the universe is really like, now that the gloves are off and she's not hiding in a dig somewhere.

She's had to make some hard choices since Shep's death.  I love it.

Kaiden/Ash did what you'd have expected someone still in it for the cause.  They're alliance, through and through, and you showing up as a Cerberus whatever, is going to through them for a loop.  But the email afterwards was an excellent touch. 

Sure, you get very little face time with them.  It's Horizon, "Oh hey" and then BAM that's it... but honestly, it was just enough for me. 

Then again, I'm not really in to the whole Kaiden thing, but I still see it as well written.  

I'd try and reverse it a bit, but honestly, I didn't get the chance to romance Garrus in 1, I was pleasently surprized to find him in the second game.  (Didn't follow much of the hype, just knew it was coming out soon. XD)

/shrug I dunno.  I find the direction those characters going to be something I'm looking forward to, it's why I made a second run through with a ME1 LI.  Because it's still a great story.

[Malanek]

Nozybidaj wrote...
We can be vocal now, but how long will that last.  There is nothing for these groups to hold onto, there is nothing in ME2 that gives any of them the slightest indication that they actually have anything to look forward to.  

First of all, well done on a heartfelt thread. However I simply don't agree with it to the extent you have taken it. And particularly when focusing on Liara. I haven't read it but isn't there an ongoing comic dealing with Liaras story between Me1 and ME2? I also think that possibly the second biggest story arc outside of the Reapers regards the shadow broker and Liara is tied right up with that. IMO, it is pretty strongly hinted that Liara fans have a lot to look forward to in ME3. I suspect at the end of the triology Liara will be the second most important character after Shepard.

[CanadAvenger]

Agreed with above statements; there are quite a few ME1 LI fans (group in my sig) but we just are not very vocal. This is because we normally get crushed by the TaliNation...



The way I see it, and the way it was meant to be - is that ME2 is a "troubled time" in the relationship. I do agree that the LI's could have played a slightly larger role, but after discussing it thoroughly with others in the group, it really is a bridge point. It is meant to say that "There is still something happening with [insert LI here], but at the moment, nothing can be done."



Someone said above that Liara cannot die; this is true. I am 100% certain we will see more of her, whether it be in DLC, or in ME3.



The ME1 LI true fans will not give up hope; I know I won't. I did not cheat on Liara in my main profile (though I imported a single-Shep and got the Paramour achievement) and I do not plan to. I am eager to see new developments with her, and I was a little miffed at the treatment my Shepard received from her in ME2, I could recognize the pain and emotion in her voice and eyes. It that kind of thing that you have to pay attention to, and you can see it with Kaiden and Ashley too.



Never give up, ME1 LI fans. Never. Give. Up.

[Nozybidaj]

Malanek999 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
We can be vocal now, but how long will that last.  There is nothing for these groups to hold onto, there is nothing in ME2 that gives any of them the slightest indication that they actually have anything to look forward to.  

First of all, well done on a heartfelt thread. However I simply don't agree with it to the extent you have taken it. And particularly when focusing on Liara. I haven't read it but isn't there an ongoing comic dealing with Liaras story between Me1 and ME2? I also think that possibly the second biggest story arc outside of the Reapers regards the shadow broker and Liara is tied right up with that. IMO, it is pretty strongly hinted that Liara fans have a lot to look forward to in ME3. I suspect at the end of the triology Liara will be the second most important character after Shepard.

So basically it's "sorry try again in another two years"?  Yeah, that is "great" news for the ME1 LI fans. <_<

[Nozybidaj]

CanadAvenger wrote...

The way I see it, and the way it was meant to be - is that ME2 is a "troubled time" in the relationship. I do agree that the LI's could have played a slightly larger role, but after discussing it thoroughly with others in the group, it really is a bridge point. It is meant to say that "There is still something happening with [insert LI here], but at the moment, nothing can be done."

But something could have been done.  I would have welcomed a "troubled time" in the relationship, but for that to have happened there would have had to of been a relationship.  

I see it less of a bridge point and more of a drop off point.  We have seen no indication to expecting anything more in the future than what we have at the moment.  The only thing that has been said is that the romances will be "concluded" in ME3.  If the definition of concluded is as broad as the defintion of "continuation" was that isn't filling me with warm fuzzies. 

A conclusion could very well be getting a mission at the start of ME3 from Liara to go save Feron and then watching her ride off into the sunset with him.  That certainly fits the definition of "conclusion".

In the end the only reason to get rid of the ME1 LI's in ME2 was to do exactly that, get rid of them. 

With the swelling popularity of the new characters and the complete inattention given to the old characters it would be much more detrimental to the last part of the trilogy to reduce the roles of the ME2 cast than continue to give the ME1 cast their cameo and quest giver role.

I think those holding out for some huge role in ME3 where they are going to get this massive reunion and live happily ever after are going to be incredibly dissappointed.

[Nozybidaj]

justinnstuff wrote...

Sometimes you just have to stick it through.

Yeah, that is quite a slogan to rally a fanbase around. <_<

[BatarianBob]

If there was ever a character not worthy of three walls of text, it's Liara.



Seriously, Microsoft Mary could have voiced her and it would have been an improvement.

[Crackseed]

The "hope" ME1 LI fans should hold to is that considering ME3 is the "end" of the trilogy for Shepard, Bioware does not have to write/code the game to be "continuable" via saves like ME1/ME2. As such they have alot more freedom to give the player crazy choices. I fully expect that we'll see most of ME2 and the ones that survived from ME1 as crew possibilities in ME3, along with maybe a couple new faces.

While I initially romanced Liara, I was so-so about her appearance in ME2, but it made enough sense to me [my opinion of course!] and when I realized I could easily play multiple times, I have a game where my Shepard remains utterly loyal and others were he lets go [after meeting her and seeing how she's become] and chased other possibilities [aka Tali]

We had to make decisions in both ME1 and ME2 based on the info we had at the time. If you had given me the knowledge that I'd have a shot at Tali eventually with my canon Shepard, I'd have let both Ash AND Liara down gently. Instead I played with the knowledge my Shep/I had - I look forward to the conclusion of it in all my playthroughs.

OP - very well written thread though and I appreciate reading your thoughts. I think you do need to have faith and hang in there, though I understand the glum realization of "God, 2 years to find happy resolution..." Keep your chin up

[Conway044]

I'd be disapointed if they made any of the romance subplots a major focus of ME 3.



I actually like the new Liara.



I agree with Sialater, I don't want more new characters. There are plenty from the first 2 games. I'd rather have the option of putting together an 8 person team from all the surving members of my ME 2 save file, bringing back the 2 ME 1 LI characters as options. An either-or mechanic would be nice as well ie. recruit Tali = no Legion.

[CanadAvenger]

Taranatar9 wrote...

If there was ever a character not worthy of three walls of text, it's Liara.

Seriously, Microsoft Mary could have voiced her and it would have been an improvement.

Guh. A troll has arrived...

[KainrycKarr]

CanadAvenger wrote...

Taranatar9 wrote...

If there was ever a character not worthy of three walls of text, it's Liara.

Seriously, Microsoft Mary could have voiced her and it would have been an improvement.

Guh. A troll has arrived...

in relation to one of your posts, the "talination" as you put it, does not crush liara support. in fact, there many talifans who SUPPORT liara, myself included. in fact i support her, in spite of disliking her personally, and much preferring tali.

Everyone needs to understand that the whole this character vs. that character thing, is not the way to get what we want.

[Crackseed]

It's fair to say that any mature and respectable gamer supports ALL the LIs/characters, even if they have personal opinions that vary. I found Kaidan boring, even with Femshep, but I'm rooting for all the Kaidan fans to have a great resolution to that subplot