148 réponses à ce sujet

[PMorgan18]

I can see where you are coming from. In ME1 I was like you but with Ash. And with what happened in ME2 with Ash I was hurt and pissed. But I had a fall back, I also like Tali. So I went with Tali and I got hooked on Ms. vas Normandy.



I hope for the fans that stay faithful to their ME1 LI get something in DLC or Expansion to save the fandom. Only Bioware knows what is going to happen in ME3 with the LI and I have a feeling it will be worth it but will it be in time.

[Nozybidaj]

justinnstuff wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Sometimes you just have to stick it through.

Yeah, that is quite a slogan to rally a fanbase around. <_<

Well, what else can you do. I know where you're coming from because we're in the same boat. I've never really been good with words. If you got something that can get everyone all riled up, I'm all ears. 

That's my point, there isn't anything.  There is nothing to attract new gamers into the fandom.  The best the fanbase for these characters can hope to do is stay completely stagnant over the next two years till ME3.  More realistically the best they will be able to do is not disappear completely.  People who played ME1 haven't had their minds changed about these chacters, unless you want to count all the returning players that saw the obviously negative presentation of the characters and now don't like them.  I see very few people who have actually changed their minds for the better towards these characters and most of them are usually just people trolling the support threads. 

New players coming into the game aren't going to care who this crazy woman on Illium is.  If in two years these new players start hearing about how that random Asari is a squadmate in ME3 they are all going to be scratching their heads wondering why and complaining that they would rather have Aria, or Kal'Reegar, or the Asari bartended on Illium.  And you know what, they are going to be absolutely right in their opinion.  Bioware gave new players absolutely no reason to care who these characters are and no reason to form any emotional attachment to them what so ever.

These characters had zero presence in the game and were merely added as fan service to the old fans in the same way Gianna and Shiala were.  In fact I would say Shiala has a better chance of being a squadmate in ME3 than Liara does since she actually makes a positive impression on new players.

The real problem though is the new fans and their (lack) of introduction to these characters.  These fans now make up a substantial part of the player base.  They will continue to swell the numbers of the new fandoms and increase the popularity of the new characters while the fandoms of the old characters slowly dwindles over time.

From Bioware's perspective it would be rather unwise to try and reset the game again in ME3 by bringing these characters back and risk angering these new fans by reducing the role of the current characters to be able to include the old characters.

This wouldn't have been a problem if the ME1 LI's had been included in ME2 from the start, new players would have been introduced to them properly and had the chance to form their own opinions and attachments to these characters along with any new characters that were introduced at the same time.  Now, no matter what they do in ME3 there is going to be a segment of the playerbase that is unhappy.  Should Bioware upset the new and obviously larger fanbase that is centered and growing around the new characters or the old fanbase that is already upset with them and shrinking as time passes by?

I think the direction they will choose to go is fairly obvious.

[meznaric]

What we can be sure is not going to happen is that the fanbases of Liara, Kaidan and Ash are going to disappear just because new characters were introduced. Just look at the size of the threads dedicated to these characters...



Also, I agree with the sentiment that we should not have to buy a DLC to have a more in-depth story of Liara. But what can you do, this is the nature of the beast. There is always bittorrent.

[Malanek]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
We can be vocal now, but how long will that last.  There is nothing for these groups to hold onto, there is nothing in ME2 that gives any of them the slightest indication that they actually have anything to look forward to.  

First of all, well done on a heartfelt thread. However I simply don't agree with it to the extent you have taken it. And particularly when focusing on Liara. I haven't read it but isn't there an ongoing comic dealing with Liaras story between Me1 and ME2? I also think that possibly the second biggest story arc outside of the Reapers regards the shadow broker and Liara is tied right up with that. IMO, it is pretty strongly hinted that Liara fans have a lot to look forward to in ME3. I suspect at the end of the triology Liara will be the second most important character after Shepard.

So basically it's "sorry try again in another two years"?  Yeah, that is "great" news for the ME1 LI fans. <_<

You trying to impersonate the Turian counciler? I was responding to you saying there isn't the slightest indication Liara fans have anything to look forward too. That is blatantly wrong.

And as it happens it isn't a wait of two years. As I said, Liara's story is being told in a comic.

Modifié par Malanek999, 18 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[meznaric]

Nozybidaj wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Sometimes you just have to stick it through.

Yeah, that is quite a slogan to rally a fanbase around. <_<

Well, what else can you do. I know where you're coming from because we're in the same boat. I've never really been good with words. If you got something that can get everyone all riled up, I'm all ears. 

That's my point, there isn't anything.  There is nothing to attract new gamers into the fandom.  The best the fanbase for these characters can hope to do is stay completely stagnant over the next two years till ME3.  More realistically the best they will be able to do is not disappear completely.  People who played ME1 haven't had their minds changed about these chacters, unless you want to count all the returning players that saw the obviously negative presentation of the characters and now don't like them.  I see very few people who have actually changed their minds for the better towards these characters and most of them are usually just people trolling the support threads. 

New players coming into the game aren't going to care who this crazy woman on Illium is.  If in two years these new players start hearing about how that random Asari is a squadmate in ME3 they are all going to be scratching their heads wondering why and complaining that they would rather have Aria, or Kal'Reegar, or the Asari bartended on Illium.  And you know what, they are going to be absolutely right in their opinion.  Bioware gave new players absolutely no reason to care who these characters are and no reason to form any emotional attachment to them what so ever.

These characters had zero presence in the game and were merely added as fan service to the old fans in the same way Gianna and Shiala were.  In fact I would say Shiala has a better chance of being a squadmate in ME3 than Liara does since she actually makes a positive impression on new players.

The real problem though is the new fans and their (lack) of introduction to these characters.  These fans now make up a substantial part of the player base.  They will continue to swell the numbers of the new fandoms and increase the popularity of the new characters while the fandoms of the old characters slowly dwindles over time.

From Bioware's perspective it would be rather unwise to try and reset the game again in ME3 by bringing these characters back and risk angering these new fans by reducing the role of the current characters to be able to include the old characters.

This wouldn't have been a problem if the ME1 LI's had been included in ME2 from the start, new players would have been introduced to them properly and had the chance to form their own opinions and attachments to these characters along with any new characters that were introduced at the same time.  Now, no matter what they do in ME3 there is going to be a segment of the playerbase that is unhappy.  Should Bioware upset the new and obviously larger fanbase that is centered and growing around the new characters or the old fanbase that is already upset with them and shrinking as time passes by?

I think the direction they will choose to go is fairly obvious.

I really think only a minority of new players are not going to check out ME1 before they play ME3. I totally think you worry about it too much and that it's not going to turn out like that.

[KainrycKarr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Sometimes you just have to stick it through.

Yeah, that is quite a slogan to rally a fanbase around. <_<

Well, what else can you do. I know where you're coming from because we're in the same boat. I've never really been good with words. If you got something that can get everyone all riled up, I'm all ears. 

That's my point, there isn't anything.  There is nothing to attract new gamers into the fandom.  The best the fanbase for these characters can hope to do is stay completely stagnant over the next two years till ME3.  More realistically the best they will be able to do is not disappear completely.  People who played ME1 haven't had their minds changed about these chacters, unless you want to count all the returning players that saw the obviously negative presentation of the characters and now don't like them.  I see very few people who have actually changed their minds for the better towards these characters and most of them are usually just people trolling the support threads. 

New players coming into the game aren't going to care who this crazy woman on Illium is.  If in two years these new players start hearing about how that random Asari is a squadmate in ME3 they are all going to be scratching their heads wondering why and complaining that they would rather have Aria, or Kal'Reegar, or the Asari bartended on Illium.  And you know what, they are going to be absolutely right in their opinion.  Bioware gave new players absolutely no reason to care who these characters are and no reason to form any emotional attachment to them what so ever.

These characters had zero presence in the game and were merely added as fan service to the old fans in the same way Gianna and Shiala were.  In fact I would say Shiala has a better chance of being a squadmate in ME3 than Liara does since she actually makes a positive impression on new players.

The real problem though is the new fans and their (lack) of introduction to these characters.  These fans now make up a substantial part of the player base.  They will continue to swell the numbers of the new fandoms and increase the popularity of the new characters while the fandoms of the old characters slowly dwindles over time.

From Bioware's perspective it would be rather unwise to try and reset the game again in ME3 by bringing these characters back and risk angering these new fans by reducing the role of the current characters to be able to include the old characters.

This wouldn't have been a problem if the ME1 LI's had been included in ME2 from the start, new players would have been introduced to them properly and had the chance to form their own opinions and attachments to these characters along with any new characters that were introduced at the same time.  Now, no matter what they do in ME3 there is going to be a segment of the playerbase that is unhappy.  Should Bioware upset the new and obviously larger fanbase that is centered and growing around the new characters or the old fanbase that is already upset with them and shrinking as time passes by?

I think the direction they will choose to go is fairly obvious.

Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

[Nozybidaj]

PMorgan18 wrote...

I can see where you are coming from. In ME1 I was like you but with Ash. And with what happened in ME2 with Ash I was hurt and pissed. But I had a fall back, I also like Tali. So I went with Tali and I got hooked on Ms. vas Normandy.

This is a great example of a returning player and the impact the presentation of the old LI's had on them.  Thank you PMorgan for sharing.

I know this is exactly what BW was trying to accomplish and are probably giving each other high fives over even as I type this, but personally I find it rather disheartening that they would intentionally try to present their characters in such a fashion.

[meznaric]

KainrycKarr wrote...
Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Exactly! If anything, Liara seems to be getting special treatment. It wasn't Kaidan or Ash that couldn't let Shepard go and were trying to make him survive.

[Nozybidaj]

meznaric wrote...

What we can be sure is not going to happen is that the fanbases of Liara, Kaidan and Ash are going to disappear just because new characters were introduced. Just look at the size of the threads dedicated to these characters...

Also, I agree with the sentiment that we should not have to buy a DLC to have a more in-depth story of Liara. But what can you do, this is the nature of the beast. There is always bittorrent.

If you look a that the threads though it is only a handful of people, like myself, who refuse to let the thread die.  The fanbase is not growing for these characters.

[Nozybidaj]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Sorry Kain, you are usully very level headed, and I don't intended this to be rude, but did you even read what I wrote?

[Nozybidaj]

meznaric wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Exactly! If anything, Liara seems to be getting special treatment. It wasn't Kaidan or Ash that couldn't let Shepard go and were trying to make him survive.

I would bet my house on the fact that the comic series is not going to have any significant positive influence on the Liara fanbase.  There are too few people who read the comic and her negative portrayal in game is almost certainly going to be based off of whatever is left to uncover in the comic.  I don't see this as a good sign.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 18 février 2010 - 01:13 .

[KainrycKarr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Sorry Kain, you are usully very level headed, and I don't intended this to be rude, but did you even read what I wrote?

I did. you have very valid points, and in absolute truth I don't have anything to add to deny what you are saying.

Is the fanbase not growing? Unfortunately...yes. However, I think, maybe, just maybe, Bioware won't be so shallow as to throw Liara away just because her fanbase isn't the same as tali's.

For one thing, it doesn't make sense storywise. Bioware doesn't write bad stories. I fully believe they have a plan for Liara, and I think they are fan-loyal enough to keep to that plan for ME3.

And again...I think the comic just might end up helping the "liara-cause".

But alas, these are only my opinions. Hopefully something will come out soon that will alleviate your fears, or at least give ya some hope.

[meznaric]

Nozybidaj wrote...

meznaric wrote...

What we can be sure is not going to happen is that the fanbases of Liara, Kaidan and Ash are going to disappear just because new characters were introduced. Just look at the size of the threads dedicated to these characters...

Also, I agree with the sentiment that we should not have to buy a DLC to have a more in-depth story of Liara. But what can you do, this is the nature of the beast. There is always bittorrent.

If you look a that the threads though it is only a handful of people, like myself, who refuse to let the thread die.  The fanbase is not growing for these characters.

Wait, which thread are you talking about? There are lots of Liara threads, but I am not sure if any of them is sort of the main support thread? 

But yeah, you are right that the fan base is certainly not growing. Maybe the devs just want to give us a variety of choice. And considering that any of the characters in ME2 could have died it seems likely to me that they will not return as squad mates in ME3. So maybe we might even get Liara back in ME3. Maybe that's why she could not have been a squad mate to make sure she does not die.

[Malanek]

What the hell does it matter if the fanbase isn't growing???? If I am enjoying a story I don't care how many others are doing so.

[Nozybidaj]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Sorry Kain, you are usully very level headed, and I don't intended this to be rude, but did you even read what I wrote?

I did. you have very valid points, and in absolute truth I don't have anything to add to deny what you are saying.

Is the fanbase not growing? Unfortunately...yes. However, I think, maybe, just maybe, Bioware won't be so shallow as to throw Liara away just because her fanbase isn't the same as tali's.

For one thing, it doesn't make sense storywise. Bioware doesn't write bad stories. I fully believe they have a plan for Liara, and I think they are fan-loyal enough to keep to that plan for ME3.

And again...I think the comic just might end up helping the "liara-cause".

But alas, these are only my opinions. Hopefully something will come out soon that will alleviate your fears, or at least give ya some hope.

Of course none of this does anything to help the Ash/Kaidan fandoms.  They don't seem to be getting their own comics to add a thick layer of "grimdark" to their characters. <_<

Of course they probably see that as a good thing.

[InvaderErl]

I will say I think a lot of the Liara fans are setting themselves up for some serious hurt in regards to the rumor about Liara DLC.

[meznaric]

Nozybidaj wrote...

meznaric wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
Liara has her own comic series. Come now. There IS hope.

Exactly! If anything, Liara seems to be getting special treatment. It wasn't Kaidan or Ash that couldn't let Shepard go and were trying to make him survive.

I would bet my house on the fact that the comic series is not going to have any significant positive influence on the Liara fanbase.  There are too few people who read the comic and her negative portrayal in game is almost certainly going to be based off of whatever is left to uncover in the comic.  I don't see this as a good sign.

It could well be that the story is going to make her look even worse. But maybe if they explain sufficiently the negativity behind her it might make her behaviour seem more natural and perhaps not necessarily related to her loss of feeling towards Shepard. And who knows what the DLC is going to contain ... It could be that it extends the Shadow Broker story and could be she gets warmer towards Shepard when she realizes he does not hate her for giving him over to Cerberus.

[yeldarbnotned]

See, the big problem with a fantastic game; we gamers want to become part of the universe. We care about our Shepard. We care about squadmates, especially if one becomes a lover. We want to be our character or at least be there helping. We certainly cheer for them and at times pump our fist like the OP. We have become emotionally involved in the story. The climatic events in Mass Effect were a true adrenaline rush.
So, we wait two years to continue the battle to save humanity. Ever hopeful, that our loyal and trusted friends will join the cause. Well, two do, but not the one we really wanted. Not only that, we find out our adorable good hearted Liara has become a obsessive revenge seeking killer. We don't know why yet. And, we don't know why we couldn't interact more to find out.
In other words, two years have gone by, and we have very little. But, no worries two more years we will have Mass Effect 3.
So, Bioware, you succeeded in giving us a tremendous experience in Mass Effect, but by not allowing us to play with or interact more with Shepard's "love interest" you took that experience away in Mass Effect 2. Because, for some, that love interest was an essential part of who Shepard became. And by just giving it lip/negative cameo service, the universe did not make sense to that Shepard anymore.
However, If a gamer did not play Mass Effect, or did not have a love interest from Mass Effect, or did not really care about that love interest, then that shortcoming could be overlooked. With that in mind, Mass Effect 2 had all the elements to be a fantastic game.

[CanadAvenger]

KainrycKarr wrote...

CanadAvenger wrote...

Taranatar9 wrote...

If there was ever a character not worthy of three walls of text, it's Liara.

Seriously, Microsoft Mary could have voiced her and it would have been an improvement.

Guh. A troll has arrived...

in relation to one of your posts, the "talination" as you put it, does not crush liara support. in fact, there many talifans who SUPPORT liara, myself included. in fact i support her, in spite of disliking her personally, and much preferring tali.

Everyone needs to understand that the whole this character vs. that character thing, is not the way to get what we want.

Lots of times I have seen (on the main boards) that someone tries to voice something positive about Liara, some Talifan jumps in and shoots it down. I have not seen that recently (thankfully) but it's still out there. Especially if someone makes the mistake of mentioning her in that massive Talifan thread...

However, it is nice to know that SOME (I wouldn't say many) TaliFans are still supporting Liara in some way.

Modifié par CanadAvenger, 18 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Awesome Helmet]

mass effect went from being an untouchable game in my book to just another shooter(sortof). ME1 was THE BEST FRIGGIN GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED. EVER. by far. awesome. too many good things to say about it. i cant even think about something i didnt like about ME, well besides driving the mako straight up mountain sides. but non the less the greatest game i have ever enjoyed since super mario world. i would fight anyone who said ME sucked. to the death.



i played ME2.....it deserved an "ehh."



is it a let down? yes

do i have hope for ME3? ofcourse

will i be as crazy as i was in anticipation for ME3 as i was ME2? no



for all those choices i made and those people i saved, its still not my world. its biowares. hell inbetween ME1 and ME2 bioware killed my shepard when i wasnt even playing him. so all we can do is hope and pray that bioware gets it right. but its not like 2 out of 3 would be a bad thing.

[smudboy]

In regards to continuity, a lot has been left out. And that's not great, but fine if one is doing something new.



The main quest for ME2 was, or was supposed to be, this race to save human colonies. I can buy that we don't have time to have exposition on the 2 year death and rebirth of Shepard, but boy would it help. I can also buy that BioWare wants to tell a much larger story than a video game can hold (like their use of the comic book, novels, and the Mass Effect Galaxy game.)



However, the problem with ME2 wasn't how they handled x character(s). It's the general exposition of the story, and the content thereof.



If ME2 was that sense of immediacy, to hunt down a team of specialists, to quickly kill their opponents, we need to know why we need this team. We need to know how we're going to attack the enemy. It's basic stuff one asks when going on a quest (i.e. like to the shopping market. Why are we buying a dozen eggs?) For example, if we needed a Prothean scientist who was a biotic specialist, to make a weapon, then bam: we'd be hunting down Liara (from whatever crazy plot she won't tell us about), with her kicking and screaming. We're Shepard, and Cerberus. We don't have time to sit around through red tape, and hunt one of our other enemies (although that plot could've easily been tied in.) Yet, the focus is on all our characters and their daddy issues, so we've no problems dealing with those across the galaxy, so they can have sense of "loyalty", however that works in relation to them not dying at the end, or something.



If team loyalty and dynamics were the issue, wouldn't it have been better if we had social expositions on these characters? A series of campfire scenarios, people talking together about their pasts, the occasional mission for a few of them? Get Thane out of the damn Lift Support! Stop Calibrating the damn weapons, Garrus! Why does loyalty have to come at the end of the barrel of Shepard's gun? Do not personal/psychological issues have to be dealt with in a different fashion? Why is Kelly not doing her job?



(For example, for pacing, they could've tied Samara's recruit and loyalty mission, which wasn't a typical bloodfest, into going to Omega.)



I argue the main plot constantly, as no character, not even Mordin/Okeer, had a plot or motivations associated with the main plot. Everyone was just along for the ride, without any reason from TIM or anyone else, why.



In LotR, Frodo has to throw the ring into Mt. Doom, and we know how everyone's going to protect him to do so. We know how orcs are made, who makes them, and their motivations. The rest of the story is the journey and the challenges the party has with that goal.

In ME2, Shepard has to defeat the Collectors, but we don't learn who they are, what their reasons are, why they're doing what they're doing, how we're going to defeat them, or how the people we bring are going to help with that. I can guess that in ME3, we'll have a Collector-Legion character, and he'll be a faction of the Collectors who yadda yadda yadda likes riding motorcycles and using a grenade launcher..?

[Halfheart]

Fantastic and well thought out OP. I"m a die hard Ash fan, and her role in ME3 will likely decide whether or not I preorder the game (of course I will buy at some point if only to finish the trilogy).

I believe your level of hope for our ME1 LI's is valid. Casey Hudson has said that they will play a part in ME3 (hinted at a large part), but whether or not they will be squaddies is in serious doubt.

For example, Ash/Kaiden's "part" in the final act could be as Shep's liason to the Alliance, and you have to go through them to recruit Alliance forces to fight the Reapers (or something, I'm coming up with this on the spot). They would still be playing an important role as Casey said they would, but it wouldn't be the same as having them as squaddies.

Now all of this is speculation until they start releasing ME3 info, but I'm having a harder and harder time believing that they will be squadmates again.

[Nozybidaj]

Halfheart wrote...

Fantastic and well thought out OP. I"m a die hard Ash fan, and her role in ME3 will likely decide whether or not I preorder the game (of course I will buy at some point if only to finish the trilogy).
I believe your level of hope for our ME1 LI's is valid. Casey Hudson has said that they will play a part in ME3 (hinted at a large part), but whether or not they will be squaddies is in serious doubt.
For example, Ash/Kaiden's "part" in the final act could be as Shep's liason to the Alliance, and you have to go through them to recruit Alliance forces to fight the Reapers (or something, I'm coming up with this on the spot). They would still be playing an important role as Casey said they would, but it wouldn't be the same as having them as squaddies.
Now all of this is speculation until they start releasing ME3 info, but I'm having a harder and harder time believing that they will be squadmates again.

Agreed, that is more along the lines of what I am thinking.  That is the most likely reason why Liara has been set up to be the next Shadow Broker as well.  I do not see the ME1 LI's being more than contacts in ME3.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 18 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[Halfheart]

The reasons I think my example is at all plausible is because of the following 3 things:

1. Easily reversible role between Ash/Kaiden, with only minor adjustments needed if they are LI's.

2. "Cheating" on them could cause them to not help, or be significantly less helpful (ie the dire consequences for cheating).

3. Minimal work needed (they are honestly going to have their hands full finding a way to deal with the ME2 squad/LI's and possible new squaddies).

Liara being set up as the next shadow broker is quite interesting... If I may try to expand upon your idea a little? Let me know what you think.

If she ends up killing him (or if you help her kill him/it/they) there will need to be a replacement, and all that intel she gains could be used as a threat could really help coerce the collective races to unite (or you could use it to *force* the council to recognize the reaper threat). And she still places an important plot role without necessarily being a squadmate.

Interesting food for thought anyway

[ZennExile]

So many words to say, market driven games are good sometimes too?