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ME2: The Fallout


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#101
Nozybidaj

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Halfheart wrote...

The reasons I think my example is at all plausible is because of the following 3 things:
1. Easily reversible role between Ash/Kaiden, with only minor adjustments needed if they are LI's.
2. "Cheating" on them could cause them to not help, or be significantly less helpful (ie the dire consequences for cheating).
3. Minimal work needed (they are honestly going to have their hands full finding a way to deal with the ME2 squad/LI's and possible new squaddies).
Liara being set up as the next shadow broker is quite interesting... If I may try to expand upon your idea a little? Let me know what you think.
If she ends up killing him (or if you help her kill him/it/they) there will need to be a replacement, and all that intel she gains could be used as a threat could really help coerce the collective races to unite (or you could use it to *force* the council to recognize the reaper threat). And she still places an important plot role without necessarily being a squadmate.
Interesting food for thought anyway


I suppose interesting is one way to put it. <_<

But yes, that is where I see them taking her character, as much as it disappoints me.

#102
Nozybidaj

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ZennExile wrote...

So many words to say, market driven games are good sometimes too?


If you thought I was saying the game was good, I don't think you caught the full intent of my post. ;)

#103
Canez fan 1988

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Nozybidaj wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

So many words to say, market driven games are good sometimes too?


If you thought I was saying the game was good, I don't think you caught the full intent of my post. ;)


You can wallow in sorrow as much as you want. It's your loss. You shouldn't let something like this ruin an entire game for you.

#104
Guest_Littledoom_*

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Talogrungi wrote...

ME2 is an awesome game, but the import feature failed to meet expectations for me.

Many of the gripes I have with the game relates back to that.

  • I romanced Liara in ME1. Our reunion in ME2 was a business meeting.
  • I saved the council in ME1. It had absolutely no effect in ME2.
  • I saved the Rachni in ME1. I got a "oh hai!" dialogue in ME2.
If I hadn't played ME1, then none of this would matter to me and I honestly think that I would have enjoyed the game a whole lot more.


I agree with you on everything besides ME2 being a awesome game, it's good but nothing more.

#105
Nozybidaj

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Littledoom wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

ME2 is an awesome game, but the import feature failed to meet expectations for me.

Many of the gripes I have with the game relates back to that.

  • I romanced Liara in ME1. Our reunion in ME2 was a business meeting.
  • I saved the council in ME1. It had absolutely no effect in ME2.
  • I saved the Rachni in ME1. I got a "oh hai!" dialogue in ME2.
If I hadn't played ME1, then none of this would matter to me and I honestly think that I would have enjoyed the game a whole lot more.


I agree with you on everything besides ME2 being a awesome game, it's good but nothing more.


I especially agree on the last part.  ME2 would have been a much more wonderful experience if I had never played ME1.

#106
ZennExile

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Nozybidaj wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

So many words to say, market driven games are good sometimes too?


If you thought I was saying the game was good, I don't think you caught the full intent of my post. ;)


Maybe if it wasn't full of dutch oven battery power... (aka windy Image IPB) it would be easier to pick up on your point wherever you buried it under that mountain of randomness.

#107
InvaderErl

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Mass Effect 2 was the awesomesauce.

Yes ,the handling of the ME1 li is a sore point for some (I rather liked it) but other than that, and I will certainly agree that is a a very valid complaint, the game was better in pretty much every area compared to its predecessor.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 18 février 2010 - 05:01 .


#108
JJDrakken

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reading all this, Ive come to a conclusion, folks need to get out of house more & get laid more often.  As for Love Interests, I was accidently put into it, I was just talking to folks to get to know the backstorys, all sudden I got Ashley & Liara all over me, Im like oh great -rolls eyes-

So what do I do, I blow up Ashley & Im stuck with a blue alien :?


JJ

Modifié par JJDrakken, 18 février 2010 - 05:06 .


#109
InvaderErl

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Heh, "So like we're gonna do it, right?"



"Huh?"

#110
ThePasserby

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If all that matters to you in the whole game is your virtual romance with Liara and that the lack of a continuation of this virtual relationship causes you to lose interest in ME3, then you weren't a fan of the ME series to begin with. There's no need to write 2 to 3 long posts to wallow in it and cast envious looks at the Tali, Miranda, Thane fans. There are many things that are great about the two games and the romance is just one of them.








#111
OfTheFaintSmile

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What is the measure of a great game?



The face I play it repeatedly over and over and am entertained every single time without fail.



The combat is so much fun, having a missile whiz past your head is great fun and immersion




#112
full_metal_zombie

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I agree with the OP mostly, but I still have hopes for Liara. I am a Liara fan, I did romance her with my main shepard for many of the same reasons others have stated (innocence, cutness, etc...) and I was also disappointed (to say the least) with her cameo in ME2. But even with her lackluster appearence in ME2 (esspecially to those who romanced her,) I still believe Liara is a central part of the story and have faith that us Liara fans will not be disappointed with what Bioware may have in store. It's obvious to me they have plans for her beyond this. She had her own comic, she's the only one (romanced or not) that seemed to even care about giving Shepard the respect she deserves by finding her body and willing to go to such drastic measures like handing it over to Cerberus under the pretence that they might actually be able to bring her back.



Plus, if you can believe the rumors made by some people on these forums, (based on some .ini files found in the PC games directory or something like that), there may be future DLC that involves Liara. I take it with a grain of salt and I'll believe it when I see it, but it still gives me something to look forward to, a hope at least. I think, given Biowares history they've earned the benefit of the doubt, here. I've played just about every Bioware release to date and I'm willing to let this one slide. Given their track record with story telling, I'm not going to lose my cool over one plot element I don't agree with. Even if it is pretty damn questionable.



"Don't worry, I'm not my mother. Everything I do, I do of my own free will." ...Is it just me or is that worse? I mean, she basically said she's a freaking looney tunes cold hearted killer without being indoctrinated. The lack of conversation options in her ME2 encounter was just maddening.

#113
nitefyre410

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Sialater wrote...

I don't think they should introduce any new squadmembers and just flesh out the ME1s and ME2s.



Exactly  we don't need a  new cast of characters we need this cast.   ME 2 characters are the ones that we are attached to  and vested.  It makes no sense to introduce new characters in ME  3. when every character in ME 2 is great and can be built  upon. 

#114
Kreidian

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 Well I definitely hear what the OP is saying. I don't agree with most of it, but I think it's a valid complaint that Bioware needs to hear. 

Personally I LOVE what they've done with Liara. And by that I actually rather like the fact that she changed so much, even if I didn't like what she was changing into. I truly enjoyed seeing characters from the first game change and evolve in your absence. The fact that it was so jarring, that it shocked so many people, that it down right bothered so many Liara fans is all part of some wonderful character development from my point of view. Because great characters evolve and not always in ways that your character would like, especially if you're not even around at the time. 
Perhaps they went overboard? Maybe, but I would much rather have this overboard change then no change at all. Seeing the exact same Liara standing there as if nothing's changed would have been a greater disappointment for me. What's more it's the fact that Kaiden/Ashley didn't really evolve or change as characters why I found them so dull and boring by comparision. ( Although I still like Ashley, so I can forgive her. ;) )

What I really didn't like was how the romances got brushed under the table. That much I will agree on. There was no real dialog specifically pertaining to Liara's romance, just an awkward kiss. Sorry but not acceptable, they should have put more effort into it.

P.S. I still love Liara, however, and eagerly look forward to seeing her in action for ME3! Yeah, I'm staying loyal to her. :D <3

Modifié par Kreidian, 18 février 2010 - 06:09 .


#115
Ghostano

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I don't think they should introduce any new squadmembers and just flesh out the ME1s and ME2s.



Exactly  we don't need a  new cast of characters we need this cast.   ME 2 characters are the ones that we are attached to  and vested.  It makes no sense to introduce new characters in ME  3. when every character in ME 2 is great and can be built  upon. 


 The same could have been said for the cast in the first one. Oh well we shall see what happens in 2 years untill then I will keep playng with these fancy icons Image IPB

 Image IPB

#116
Terraneaux

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Nozybidaj wrote...


I especially agree on the last part.  ME2 would have been a much more wonderful experience if I had never played ME1.


Good god do I agree here.  The gameplay was vastly improved, but gameplay does not a good rpg make - it needs a role to play.  And ME2 was really lacking in that department.  

#117
SurfaceBeneath

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Nozy, congratulations on a well written (if extremely long winded) thread. I don't normally attribute rationality to any character fanbase, however you do seem to be a voice of reason within your particular camp.

Was ME2 an objective success? Undoubtedly. It has been critically acclaimed by every published reviewer out there. It sold 2 million+ copies in I believe a single week during what is statistically the worst month to put a big budget title out. Nearly every complaint about the first game was addressed, and while some may disagree with the decisions made on how to address those complaints, critically there was nearly no disagreement on it being a net positive gain. The story of the game, another point of contention on these forums, can at least be agreed upon to have represented Bioware taking a chance and focusing more on a character driven story with episodic progression rather than a more straight forward narrative. I would argue that this method allowed for greater freedom to explore the universe they so carefully constructed and resulted in a much more intimate relationship with the cast as a whole, though I can already tell typing this that half the forum are prepping their flamethrowers.

However, objective a success as the game may have been, these forums are anywhere but a bastion for objectivity. This isn't meant as an insult per se, only to mean that if you care enough about the ME universe that you're devoting much of your free time here, there is almost no way you can judge either game impartially. Certain characters, themes, and gameplay mechanics resonate with you, and changes made from the first game to the second game can negatively effect the game in a way that no reasonably objective view of the game could account for.

My viewpoint of the first game is not as sunny as most on these forums. When the game first came out, I was one of the many who posted (though I was under a different handle at the time) about how, though conceptually a very strong game, Mass Effect suffered from numerous gameplay flaws and a cast of the most lackluster squad characters (I felt) that Bioware had ever done. It's actually pretty incredible looking back then and seeing what Bioware produced with the second game, because I see many mechanics suggested then that made it almost completely unchanged in ME2. Anyways, I was not alone in this sentiment that the first game sufferred from weak characters and expressed a desire for a bit more of a vibrant cast in future games in this series... there were many there.

So no, I was certainly not upset or even slightly unnerved by the lack of ME1 squaddies in ME2, particularly the LIs. In fact, I was kind of glad. I romanced one every single game, yet besides Ashley I never really cared for any of them, and even her it was not an intense kind of liking for the character but rather a cold respect for her as a realistic human being but not someone I really desired on any level. However, I understand that there were those who, like in all fandom, do attach themselves to specific characters. To those people, I understand their disappointment, however as someone who does not find themselves overly attached to characters in the games I play, at least on an emotional level, the bitterness and vitrol that has been summoned by these camps due to their role in the second game (or lack thereof) is somewhat baffling personally. Some people's perception of the entire game were simply poisoned, an infection that did not simply concentrate on the lack of their favorite character's inclusion, but tangentally in to all other plot points. On some level, I think it stems from jealousy... many people who criticize the episodic format of the game would probably have had a different opinion on the matter entirely if the character that was their favorite was given such a mission of their own. Every now and then you will see a fan who just spites Garrus and Tali fans because those two camps got something they didn't. But that's neither here nor there.

Being as character neutral as I consider myself to be (in that I feel I do not hold any particular... "obsession" probably isn't the right word, but it's the only one I can think of right now, towards any particular character), my perspective on the matter is this: Bioware intended a certain thematic route for ME2. This route was one in which Shepard was essentially alone and abandoned. Shepard is cut off from his old allies (2 years is a long time), the Alliance and Council both see Shepard as a liability, and Shepard's only allies were one of his greatest enemies in the first game. This kind of isolation was purposely intended. Because these are the themes that Bioware sought to evoke. They further compounded this isolation by making Shepard's meetings with their former LIs extremely rocky and cold, as if these weren't even the same people Shepard knew back in ME1. Many people have caracterized Ash, Kaiden, and Liara as badly written... but they really weren't. The fact that they feel so alien to you is at the very fundamental essence of the story. This required taking some liberties with the characters to move forward the thematic progression of the story, but most every author is guilty of that in some form or another. Good stories simply wouldn't exist without characters who motivate dramatic tension (hense why our lives are usually so boring in compared with the books we read... people are on a whole not a dramatic bunch who would rather just live boring but stable lives). Exacerbating this point is the fact that Bioware also included a full 6 potential romantic partners (double the last game) of very varying personalities in hopes that you will find solace in the arms of another. People tend to view this manipulation of emotions in a negative light... but it's pretty damn clear that Bioware is intending for there to be a point of romantic tension and climax in part 3 in addition to the Reaper story arc. Personally, I think this is a laudable goal, and will set up a much more fulfilling third act than it would have been if Shepard could have been snuggly wuggly with one LI the entire series. Personal preferences aside, I think it's unreasonable to criticize Bioware for trying to create far reaching themes and story arcs that are not satisfactorily resolved 2/3 in to the series.

However, remember that this is just the middle act of a greater trilogy and in typical fashion, the middle act always ends on a low note so as to carry a more spectacular finale. Bioware has already expressed that they are going to not only include the ME1 LIs in the third act, but that their roles will be quite major. I imagine early on in ME3 you will reconcile with your former LI and then need to choose between your ME1 LI and your ME2 LI.

Personally, I can't wait to break Liara's heart... but that's just me :devil:

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 18 février 2010 - 08:07 .


#118
Mox Ruuga

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Former Liara fan signing in.

I basically agree with your pessimism about the future of ME1 LIs, but then, you already know that.

Liara in particular is FUBAR after Mac Walters took over from Drew. Especially for the Shepards that had a romance with her. How could that romance continue after that ice cold business meeting of a reunion in ME2? Shepard is going off on a suicide mission, and can't even tell his/her "lover" that this might be the last time they see each other? Despite Liara staying "open" for further discussion, unlike Kaidan and Ash. There was no romance there any more, hell, it was made to look that there never was any. The Virmire survivor at least acknowledges that there is and was something between you two, and so do Joker and Kelly. As for the dev obsession with "tracking cheaters" etc, fv(k that. How can you "stay loyal", when there is nothing to stay loyal to? I will laugh if they use that "flag" as an excuse for lurid catfights and the like in ME3.

Like has been said in this thread, it's not the "more difficult time in the relationship" that aggravates people. It's the fact that there is barely enough content to say there IS a relationship. And that only goes for the Virmire survivor, since neither Liara or Shep show any affection towards each other, or tell the other that they love him/her. I would have gladly taken a heated lover's quarrel that ends in one of them storming off angrily over two cold fishes talking about hacking terminals.

But that's over and done with. Liara as an LI is FUBAR. I can see no credible way for them to smooth over or explain that "business meeting", and still claim that there is an ongoing "romance". Not in a way I'll buy it. Ash and Kaidan were gypped as well, but not nearly as bad IMO.

So the basic doom and gloom conclusion of OP is right, I think. Bioware stacked the deck too high against "staying loyal". They "rigged" the game so people would be put off by the returning ME1 LIs in favor of the new LIs. Mission accomplished. I liked Liara in ME1, but I won't waste time in meta gaming for the wrecked ruin Mac Walters made. And since there isn't a credible way for Shepard-in-love-with-Liara to react to Liara's new craziness, or even to break up in sadness/disgust, I will just not romance her in ME1 any more.

#119
SurfaceBeneath

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Mox Ruuga wrote...

Former Liara fan signing in.

I basically agree with your pessimism about the future of ME1 LIs, but then, you already know that.

Liara in particular is FUBAR after Mac Walters took over from Drew. Especially for the Shepards that had a romance with her. How could that romance continue after that ice cold business meeting of a reunion in ME2? Shepard is going off on a suicide mission, and can't even tell his/her "lover" that this might be the last time they see each other? Despite Liara staying "open" for further discussion, unlike Kaidan and Ash. There was no romance there any more, hell, it was made to look that there never was any. The Virmire survivor at least acknowledges that there is and was something between you two, and so do Joker and Kelly. As for the dev obsession with "tracking cheaters" etc, fv(k that. How can you "stay loyal", when there is nothing to stay loyal to? I will laugh if they use that "flag" as an excuse for lurid catfights and the like in ME3.

Like has been said in this thread, it's not the "more difficult time in the relationship" that aggravates people. It's the fact that there is barely enough content to say there IS a relationship. And that only goes for the Virmire survivor, since neither Liara or Shep show any affection towards each other, or tell the other that they love him/her. I would have gladly taken a heated lover's quarrel that ends in one of them storming off angrily over two cold fishes talking about hacking terminals.

But that's over and done with. Liara as an LI is FUBAR. I can see no credible way for them to smooth over or explain that "business meeting", and still claim that there is an ongoing "romance". Not in a way I'll buy it. Ash and Kaidan were gypped as well, but not nearly as bad IMO.

So the basic doom and gloom conclusion of OP is right, I think. Bioware stacked the deck too high against "staying loyal". They "rigged" the game so people would be put off by the returning ME1 LIs in favor of the new LIs. Mission accomplished. I liked Liara in ME1, but I won't waste time in meta gaming for the wrecked ruin Mac Walters made. And since there isn't a credible way for Shepard-in-love-with-Liara to react to Liara's new craziness, or even to break up in sadness/disgust, I will just not romance her in ME1 any more.


I wish I had made my post after yours. I think it would have felt all the more significant contrasted against it.

As someone who has carried both Liara and Ash/Kai romances through to ME2, neither has felt worse than the other. Liara may have been cold, but at least you were on somewhat friendly terms, even if there was some barrier between the two characters that seperated them. After meeting up with Kaiden my first playthrough, I was so pissed at him for taking the Alliance's side over my own, that when I got his e-mail I wished I could have sent back "Not good enough. Welcome to Dumpsville, population: You". On my Liara romance playthroughs, I at least kinda got that there was something holding her back that I just wasn't allowed to see... yet. At least she didn't judge me for joining up with Cerby.

Again, this is the intended direction of Bioware in dealing with the LIs. In my mind, you aren't really supposed to stay faithful. I don't think there will be any positive consequences to staying as such in ME3... I mean, unless you hate romantic conflict and tension and are completely opposed to love triangles in general. Manipulation of the fan's feelings? Absolutely. But then again, so is most of the dramatic happenings in the game. I mean, you care about the Reapers threatening to destroy everything because you are attached enough to the Galaxy that you think it's worth saving right? That's emotional manipulation right there. The fact that they not only got you to feel so passionately for a character that you are so upset over them in ME2 speaks pretty strongly for what they were trying to do.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 18 février 2010 - 08:19 .


#120
Nastrod

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I love ME2 but ya the ME1 LIs was handled like crap and that is one thing that really angers me about the game. When I got to Illium I ran straight to Liara and what happened? I got a kiss (barely) and then sent like a errand boy to do some hack jobs for her. WooHoo feel the love

Modifié par Nastrod, 18 février 2010 - 08:24 .


#121
Guest_Synriah_*

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Hey Guys,
Sorry I couldn't read most of your comments I've just read 2 pages and I thought I should write my own opinion about the Topic. 

Firstly you should know I'm a Liara fan too. I love her so badly and ME2 didn't effect me like the other fans. Actually it made me love her more. I can understand why Bioware trying to do such a thing. Yeah I accept, most of the fans from ME1 couldn't find what they've expected. And I should thank Bioware also for that. If we could have everything we were expecting there were no fun playing second game. Also you can't make happy everybody. 

In my own opinion; characters in ME1 was main storyline characters, they saved citadel they made some differences in the universe etc. They told us what is like that universe. Liara was the most important character in your crew. She was BARELY A CHILD in asari terms. So that's why she was so naive and innocent. We killed her mother together. I don't know you but I've tried to rescue Benezia. She explained why we can't and I've accepted as Liara accepted. It was hard for her ofcourse but there were nothing to do. Somehow she took that with maturity. After we saved the citadel. In an assignment around terminus system we've killed. Liara couldn't let us go. I'm still waiting how she gave us to Cerberus or who was the exact friend of hers which is killed because of the Shadow Broker but everybody thinks that he is Feron. You should catch her psychology. She has become an information broker in two years and she wasn't a minor character. She was in administration of the Illium that makes her a MAJOR char. 

Nobody should wait pity or easy understanding from your old LIs. You've been gone for 2 years what would you do in such a situation. And ME2 scenario is taking only few months of the story. What do you want until we kill collectors you want to make everything like in ME1? In a few months? Wow such a big expectation. For Ashley or Kaidan (I don't know how he exactly reacting) but it was pretty normal to act like that. You were with Cerberus and you know (a specially  about Ash) how they are stubborn about an idea. Everybody complained about why Liara didn't send a message to us. Remember she were watching by other shadow brokers. Her communication system probably is watching too. How could she risk your life again after everything she tried to do. 

By the way a friend in the post said that All ME1 chars has minor role in ME2. He is right in someway but they have a big and major role in ME story. Wrex is a clan leader in Tuchanka and he was succeed to gather all clans together. I won't say anything about Liara. Have you ever noticed Ash were only Alliance soldier in Horizon? She might be even a specter now. I can't say anything about Kaidan because I've never played a game which he was alive in my saves. That's not because I don't like it. It's because I've always played with maleshep.

In ME2, Bioware wanted to show us the other side of the coin in universe. We were in Terminus system. I don't say ME2 is perfect. But its story, I trust Bioware so much about that.

Oh yeah, and there is that ME2 chars. Have you ever noticed all of them were expendable? They can all die. Even our little sweet Tali or my buddy Garrus. Only Miranda lives whatever happens. Guys I love all the characters in different way. I love all of them. But only Liara is so important for me. Before game were published, I was disappointed about Liara. But then I've read Redemption and I've seen her in Illium and then I realized what they were trying to do. If you think about it little bit, I'm sure you can find it too.

We gonna need all the armies in the universe to destroy that Reaper invasion. Remember what has happened because of one of them, think about dozens of them. I can't talk so sure how they gonna make old crew to join us but they'll help us at the end. They are the main characters of the story. Everything depends with your choices. This is your story remember. If you didn't like the ME2's story it's because how you couldn't fit yourself in the universe. 

I believe they'll make an epic story end in ME3. I trust Bioware. But I don't expect a lot more could happen. It's still a game remember.

I didn't mean to be offensive. If you felt like that. That's all my opinion. I'm a Liara fan too. I wanted you to know different ideas of two different Liara fan. Still it's annoying Conrad Verner has a fan club LOL.

Thank you for reading. 

Modifié par Synriah, 18 février 2010 - 08:38 .


#122
Whailor

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I agree with most of the things you're saying. I personally feel that Bioware is getting sloppier and lazier with each passing year and keeps cutting corners all the time. Old chars half-done, corny dialogue choices (I mean, COME ON, who the heck came up with the lines for Shepard and old ME1 chars/LI's and so on). Other old chars from ME1 mostly come up only as some pointless and hollow mails in your private terminal mailbox. You'd think that the new game should be bigger then the old one but no, they just don't bother to add old and new areas. Heck, maybe I wanted to sit down and have a chat with the Consort again, instead of some "bla bla" mail in my mailbox. I'm not saying that the ME1 chars should become the main chars in ME2 since the story isn't about them, not directly and not fully (at least, not about all of them) but they were still done in a weak way with weak dialogue options and responses. New chars and dialogue options for Shepard and TIM and so many other chars were also in many cases weak. Shepard being, in general, totally OK to work for Cerberus despite all his fights against Cerberus in ME1. Heck, Sole Survivor Shepard wouldn't even think, every, to work with Cerberus, I'd imagine him shoot any and all Cerberus people he'd come across. Things seem to be hurried with both ME1 and many ME2 chars.

I don't know, seeing how much sloppier things got in ME2, I can't imagine how it'll be in ME3 if things continue to go down that way.

Modifié par Whailor, 18 février 2010 - 08:43 .


#123
Ieldra

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Just read the OP:
I have to say I don't agree with what's usually said about Liara, although it took me two playthroughs to come to this opinion. Liara's personality has changed, but she has also grown more into her own, even though it's not completely likeable. As with Miranda, when you meet her you don't quite know what to make of her new personality. I agree there should be one or two lines more about what was between them if you romanced her in ME1, but apart from that I like where she's been going from a storytelling perspective. I do look forward to seeing her again in ME3.

@Synriah:
I agree with almost everything you've said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 février 2010 - 08:41 .


#124
Mox Ruuga

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I wish I had made my post after yours. I think it would have felt all the more significant contrasted against it.

As someone who has carried both Liara and Ash/Kai romances through to ME2, neither has felt worse than the other. Liara may have been cold, but at least you were on somewhat friendly terms, even if there was some barrier between the two characters that seperated them. After meeting up with Kaiden my first playthrough, I was so pissed at him for taking the Alliance's side over my own, that when I got his e-mail I wished I could have sent back "Not good enough. Welcome to Dumpsville, population: You". On my Liara romance playthroughs, I at least kinda got that there was something holding her back that I just wasn't allowed to see... yet. At least she didn't judge me for joining up with Cerby.


The thing is, there's no difference in Liara's behaviour whether you romanced her or not. She's gone kerrazzeee, saying that she couldn't let even the most assholish of Shepard's, the ones that treated her like dirt in ME1, go. She's lost the sight of the big picture, which even people like Zaeed (someone else with a private vendetta) can be "charmed" to see. In a way, she's as "credibly" written as the turian council member. Funny, I think both share the same writer.

Honestly, the Ash and Kaidan blow ups make sense. Could more have been done with them? Could Shepard have been given an option to at least try and contact them after Horizon? Undoubtedly. But with Liara, there's no excuse. She remains in her office, and you can go and meet her as often as you like. But neither Shep or Liara simply have anything to say to each other.

Again, this is the intended direction of Bioware in dealing with the LIs. In my mind, you aren't really supposed to stay faithful. I don't think there will be any positive consequences to staying as such in ME3... I mean, unless you hate romantic conflict and tension and are completely opposed to love triangles in general. Manipulation of the fan's feelings? Absolutely. But then again, so is most of the dramatic happenings in the game. I mean, you care about the Reapers threatening to destroy everything because you are attached enough to the Galaxy that you think it's worth saving right? That's emotional manipulation right there. The fact that they not only got you to feel so passionately for a character that you are so upset over them in ME2 speaks pretty strongly for what they were trying to do.


I was "upset", at first. Until I realized how thoroughly Liara had been wrecked. Seriously, IMO, FUBAR is the right term to use there, at least for the Shepards who were in love with her. The gaping hole that is the "2nd act of the 3 act romance" cannot simply be ignored. I'm sure that some of the remaining Liara fandom will more or less eagerly grab whatever table scraps Bioware chooses to dole out, in the hypothetical DLC or in ME3. But I consider the romance on a trilogy level, not simply as individual episodes. After that business meeting, there's no going back, not with the current writing "talent" in any case. Not without some seriously deft writing or (much more likely) further mangling of Liara and Shepard-in-love-with-Liara. Liara was the "wrong" choice, and is now a legacy character. There will be further legacy tidbits for the holdouts in ME3.

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 18 février 2010 - 08:44 .


#125
SurfaceBeneath

SurfaceBeneath
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Mox Ruuga wrote...
The thing is, there's no difference in Liara's behaviour whether you romanced her or not. She's gone kerrazzeee, saying that she couldn't let even the most assholish of Shepard's, the ones that treated her like dirt in ME1, go. She's lost the sight of the big picture, which even people like Zaeed (someone else with a private vendetta) can be "charmed" to see. In a way, she's as "credibly" written as the turian council member. Funny, I think both share the same writer.

Honestly, the Ash and Kaidan blow ups make sense. Could more have been done with them? Could Shepard have been given an option to at least try and contact them after Horizon? Undoubtedly. But with Liara, there's no excuse. She remains in her office, and you can go and meet her as often as you like. But neither Shep or Liara simply have anything to say to each other.


Well... that's exactly the point. Liara's so unsure of what your relationship status is, given how shy she was in the first game it doesn't surprise me that she's too afraid to show her vulnerability to you. As I said, you can't judge a story based on what "normal" people would do, because normal people don't do things that start drama and conflict. Bioware intended for Liara and Shep to be cold and distant in ME2... they were successful. You may disagree that this is the path you would take for the story, but that's only based on what you know, and we've still got a third act and apparently loads of DLC to flesh that one out. 

I was "upset", at first. Until I realized how thoroughly Liara had been wrecked. Seriously, IMO, FUBAR is the right term to use there, at least for the Shepards who were in love with her. The gaping hole that is the "2nd act of the 3 act romance" cannot simply be ignored. I'm sure that some of the remaining Liara fandom will more or less eagerly grab whatever table scraps Bioware chooses to dole out, in the hypothetical DLC or in ME3. But I consider the romance on a trilogy level, not simply as individual episodes. After that business meeting, there's no going back, not with the current writing "talent" in any case. Not without some seriously deft writing or (much more likely) further mangling of Liara and Shepard-in-love-with-Liara. Liara was the "wrong" choice, and is now a legacy character. There will be further legacy tidbits for the holdouts in ME3.


Your perception of Liara was ruined. Again, since you don't have any view of the larger image, that perception could be justified or it could not be. And I'm not sure how you can say you view the romance on a "trilogy" level while simultaneously denying that the third act matters if they didn't leave you satisfied in the second game. Again, what you see as weak writing, I only have to reinforce sounds like strong writing to me. Seems like they got you very emotionally invested in the character and what happens so when the resolution comes in ME3, you will feel all the more relieved for it.

Assuming it works out that way. But one assumption is just as good as another.