148 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Well... that's exactly the point. Liara's so unsure of what your relationship status is, given how shy she was in the first game it doesn't surprise me that she's too afraid to show her vulnerability to you. As I said, you can't judge a story based on what "normal" people would do, because normal people don't do things that start drama and conflict. Bioware intended for Liara and Shep to be cold and distant in ME2... they were successful. You may disagree that this is the path you would take for the story, but that's only based on what you know, and we've still got a third act and apparently loads of DLC to flesh that one out. 

Liara wasn't all that shy about admitting her attraction to Shepard in ME1. She's shy around "people". She's not shy around Shepard, and IIRC tells you as much in ME1. And Shepard was never shy in any way, so why would s/he simply sit and take the cold treatment, much less give it back as the default behaviour we can't influence? The only thing you can do, is ask her about the anger. Against Shadow Broker, not about the coldness towards yourself. Liara explains, a bit, but Shepard basically doesn't react. If these two people are supposed to be in love, why doesn't this explanation give Shepard-in-love-with-Liara anything better to say than "you did the right thing, my work is important"? Hell, I admit I'm jealous of the Talimancers. No secret, that. Had there been a similar moment in the Talimance, you can bet your boots there would have been another "hug interrupt", at the very least. But then, that romance was written by Mr. Weekes.

I've said that the goal of Bioware was to estrange the ME1 LI from Shepard from the start, after I saw how the cameos turned out. What you're telling me is not news. In my opinion, they just went too far and used questionable methods, and for some of us this has damaged the ME1 LI / Shepard romance to a breaking point, if not beyond.

Your perception of Liara was ruined. Again, since you don't have any view of the larger image, that perception could be justified or it could not be. And I'm not sure how you can say you view the romance on a "trilogy" level while simultaneously denying that the third act matters if they didn't leave you satisfied in the second game. Again, what you see as weak writing, I only have to reinforce sounds like strong writing to me. Seems like they got you very emotionally invested in the character and what happens so when the resolution comes in ME3, you will feel all the more relieved for it.

Assuming it works out that way. But one assumption is just as good as another.

How can the third act matter, if there's no second act? I understand that you feel there was a credible second act. I don't. That's the difference between our views. You think I'm merely disappointed in where they took the romance. I say they took the romance out completely, that there's nothing to go back to any longer in ME3, unless the DLC actually overwrites the content in the core game, but that then opens another can of worms...

I was emotionally invested in the character, I admit it. I just see no really credible way to explain the "nothing" that was the second act of the romance, to make any act three for them plausible. I don't doubt that Bioware will cook something up. I'll just sneer in contempt, and keep romancing Miri and Ash.

[VampireCommando]

Nozybidaj wrote...

How do you measure a great game?  Do you look at sales numbers and how much profit the game made?  Do you score reviews and compile statistics on how the game has been rated?  Do you look to the fans and gather feedback on how they enjoyed the game?

I think all of these are good ways to measure a great game.  Mass Effect 2 in all these aspects has surpassed expectations.  Despite being released less than a week before the end of January Mass Effect 2 came in second for the month’s sales with 572,100 copies.  Reviews have been nothing short of fantastic, grabbing a Metascore of 96 and universal acclaim.  Fans are praising the game, touting its improved shooter combat, streamlined game mechanics, its great cinematic production values, and the huge cast of characters that have been introduced creating near fanatical fandoms like Talimancers in the process.

Being the second chapter of a trilogy can be a hard sell, especially following such a widely loved game as Mass Effect but Bioware seems to have pulled it off brilliantly.  When one looks at the effect Mass Effect 2 has had one could say that there isn’t a single thing that Mass Effect 2 did wrong.

When one starts to look at the effects ME2 has had it is easy to see all the good things it has spawned.  Talimance, a true joining of the shooter and rpg experience, a bar raising experience with digital and voice acting alike.  It is hard to see where the game could have had any negative impacts. 

Taking a look at Bioware’s very own social site we can see how much the fans love to discuss and endorse their favorite characters.  There are 8 Tali specific groups containing 2,623 members, Garrus has 5 groups containing 1,006 members.  Even bit characters seem to be loved and get their own attention.  Characters like Kal’Reegar have group memberships reaching over 225 members.  Even the comical Conrad Verner has his own group., Ambassador Udina has 2.

The forums section is host to its own kind of fan love.  No one who has ever gone to the Bioware forums could have missed threads like “Keep Tali Alive 2.0” which has grown to well over 1,000 pages and over 26,000 posts at the time I write this and continues to grow by the minute.  Bioware has created such lovable characters in Mass Effect 2 that the fans of the game are simply gushing with love and affection for their favorite characters.

What Mass Effect 2 did was spectacular by the estimation of groups such as Tali and Garrus lovers.  Bioware games excel at creating characters that people fall in love with, they empathize with them, and create an emotional attachment to them that is a very rare thing for video game developers and it is something that Bioware seems to take a lot of pride in.

That emotional attachment to the characters is what keeps people playing Bioware games.  They create groups about them, make threads about them, produce fanart and all sorts of fanfiction around these characters.  A real community develops not just for the game but for the individual characters that is a separate entity from just being a Mass Effect fan.

i belive you have just summed up how the entire community feels, well more or less

[SurfaceBeneath]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
Liara wasn't all that shy about admitting her attraction to Shepard in ME1. She's shy around "people". She's not shy around Shepard, and IIRC tells you as much in ME1. And Shepard was never shy in any way, so why would s/he simply sit and take the cold treatment, much less give it back as the default behaviour we can't influence? The only thing you can do, is ask her about the anger. Against Shadow Broker, not about the coldness towards yourself. Liara explains, a bit, but Shepard basically doesn't react. If these two people are supposed to be in love, why doesn't this explanation give Shepard-in-love-with-Liara anything better to say than "you did the right thing, my work is important"? Hell, I admit I'm jealous of the Talimancers. No secret, that. Had there been a similar moment in the Talimance, you can bet your boots there would have been another "hug interrupt", at the very least. But then, that romance was written by Mr. Weekes.

I've said that the goal of Bioware was to estrange the ME1 LI from Shepard from the start, after I saw how the cameos turned out. What you're telling me is not news. In my opinion, they just went too far and used questionable methods, and for some of us this has damaged the ME1 LI / Shepard romance to a breaking point, if not beyond.

Shyness is just indicative of a general anxiety towards being vulnerable towards others. Liara was in an EXTREMELY vulnerable position in ME2, whereas in ME1 she didn't really have to "put herself out there" that much to get Shepard's affections. We don't know the full circumstances of what caused her to behave this way. But suffice to say, she could not or did not want to express her full affections to Shepard and after their brief kiss did give Shepard that look that told him/her that this was not the time for such affections.

I think Bioware did a good job estranging us from the ME1  romances. The only real variable here is the audience's relationship of that character. Obviously it hit some harder than others, but there's no accounting for that closeness. They had a goal in mind, pursued that goal in a way that would leave no confusion (or complete confusion, seeing as that was their goal) about where the relationship was. Again, from your reaction, it only seems to have worked too well seeing just how angry it appears to have made you.

How can the third act matter, if there's no second act? I understand that you feel there was a credible second act. I don't. That's the difference between our views. You think I'm merely disappointed in where they took the romance. I say they took the romance out completely, that there's nothing to go back to any longer in ME3, unless the DLC actually overwrites the content in the core game, but that then opens another can of worms...

I was emotionally invested in the character, I admit it. I just see no really credible way to explain the "nothing" that was the second act of the romance, to make any act three for them plausible. I don't doubt that Bioware will cook something up. I'll just sneer in contempt, and keep romancing Miri and Ash.

Not all relationship progression occurs when a couple is together. Much of it occurs personally at a great distance from one another. Hell, I know for a damn fact that nearly all my relationship anxieties occur when I'm miles away from my IRL partner and often from those personal developments, major changes happen in how I deal with her without her even knowing. Again, this is a story about Shepard, not the people surrounding Shepard. We aren't privy to the thoughts and motivations of those around Shepard. We are only able to see things through Shepard's eyes and its for us to decide what their situation is accordingly. The relationship progressed just as Bioware planned, which was for the relationship to feel cold, for Shepard to feel mostly unwanted, both by their LI and by the Council, and the Alliance, etc etc... The isolation of the protagonist is undecidedly the core concept of any "dark second act".

You call it bad writing, but it's not bad writing when you succeed at writing a character in a certain direction that is supposed to make you feel a certain way as you are so indicating. Bad writing is when a writer writes something that falls flat or does not emotionally involve you at all. Hell, I know that I've never left a bad book or movie feeling angry or upset at it. If a piece of fiction involves its audiance on an emotional level like that... chances are it was well written.

(This statement does not reflect the views of the author who themself does not care for the writing of Liara's character in either game)

[Wompoo]

Actually I feel they failed badly at creating memorable characters in both ME 1 and 2. An elevator ride for forced conversations, which for the most part were forgettable. They could produce an entirely new cast of npcs for 3 and I wouldn't miss one of the previous crew. Tali is so damn predictable it is almost nauseating, the Imoen factor, feels more like a kid sister and ME1 was nothing but a cultural/history lesson. Some of the npcs have some great backgrounds... but the stories within the game lack depth. The LI's in ME2 reached a laughable stage, a point which begs the question, why did they even bother with them. Great graphical improvements in 2 as was the combat, but the stories were pov.

[matt-bassist]

During ME1 all the Tali and Garrus fans were so disappointed that Liara, Ash and Kaiden got all the attention and those other characters were left to sit around twiddling their thumbs. Now we have the reverse; Tali and Garrus get more attention, Liara, Ash and Kaiden are side-lined and the other half of the spectrum is up in arms.

Expect ME3 (or possibly even ME2 DLC) to address these issues in a big way. Without a doubt, Liara, Ash/Kaiden, and Tali and Garrus (provided they survived the suicide mission) will be squadmembers in ME3 and whichever romance option you pursued will come to a satisfying conclusion (a child? marriage? Bonnie and Clyde? who knows).

Trust in Bioware. They have achieved what no other game company has ever done; make an ambitious trilogy where you play as the same character every time, with many of your decisions from previous games having an impact on the universe (whether it is big or small). There is no other game out there where you can do this. And not only that, both ME1 and ME2 are GREAT games! You people sometimes act like spoilt brats with the way you demand things to be in the game and then get angry when it doesn't meet your expectations. It's disrespectful towards Bioware, who, in all honesty, made ME2 a great game all things considered (EA, all your choices etc).

ME3 will also be amazing, probably better than ME2 and ME1. It will probably have all the smooth controls / frame rates / combat systems from ME2 integrated with things from ME1 that are sorely missing like LI's, planet exploration on a bigger scale, and a final enemy. You can also expect all your choices from ME1 and ME2 to have an effect on the game in some way.



So tell me, why WOULDN'T you be excited for ME3? Just because they made Liara too focused on getting the Shadow Broker? You do know in ME3 they could include an early mission (perhaps where you recruit her), where you stop her from killing him, she breaks down, realises (with your help) that she is on the wrong path, and decides to return to being sweet and kind. It's not unfathomable to think that you know...

[Mox Ruuga]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Shyness is just indicative of a general anxiety towards being vulnerable towards others. Liara was in an EXTREMELY vulnerable position in ME2, whereas in ME1 she didn't really have to "put herself out there" that much to get Shepard's affections. We don't know the full circumstances of what caused her to behave this way. But suffice to say, she could not or did not want to express her full affections to Shepard and after their brief kiss did give Shepard that look that told him/her that this was not the time for such affections.

Yeah, she was so vulnerable she didn't think twice of using Shepard as one of her instruments in her personal vendetta. Or ranting on and on about crushing people so what remains can be squeezed into coffee cups.

Besides, I don't buy that look being something that Shepard picked up as an invitation to keep his/her distance. And why wasn't there a chance to break up? You seem to think that intentionally disappointing people, but forcing them to remain chained to the wrecked character is a good move? Wouldn't it be more savvy to allow our Shepards to react? You've admitted yourself that the push to "move on" was there from the writing. So why did they not allow the player the chance to react, to dump the cold fish, or, if you were merely disappointed but still anxious to try and salvage the romance, to try and dig a little more (beyond the "why are you angry at SB"), see what's hurt her so bad, even if the result would be her clamming up? I don't call that sort of railroading good writing, in a story where our decisions and choices were supposedly so important.

I think Bioware did a good job estranging us from the ME1  romances. The only real variable here is the audience's relationship of that character. Obviously it hit some harder than others, but there's no accounting for that closeness. They had a goal in mind, pursued that goal in a way that would leave no confusion (or complete confusion, seeing as that was their goal) about where the relationship was. Again, from your reaction, it only seems to have worked too well seeing just how angry it appears to have made you.

Angry? Perhaps. But it also destroyed the character for me, whom I've now given up as FUBAR. If that was Bioware's goal, they've succeeded. I can't say I agree it's good writing, aiming to leave people disappointed tho. Better to leave them hanging, make them wishing for more. Anxious to see what that third act brings us. Leaving people confused and angry, pissing off fans on purpose, burning those bridges... That's risky. What if they now bring in Liara as a very important, central character in ME3... and nobody cares? Rather, many fans now start dismissing her for her ME2 behaviour and wishing Tali or Miranda or the Ilium bartender had got that role instead? Will you still say that this "reaction" is good for the story, since it is a reaction? Trolling gets reactions, too... As in "a big giant space flea out of nowhere" type of "storytelling".

Not all relationship progression occurs when a couple is together. Much of it occurs personally at a great distance from one another. Hell, I know for a damn fact that nearly all my relationship anxieties occur when I'm miles away from my IRL partner and often from those personal developments, major changes happen in how I deal with her without her even knowing. Again, this is a story about Shepard, not the people surrounding Shepard. We aren't privy to the thoughts and motivations of those around Shepard. We are only able to see things through Shepard's eyes and its for us to decide what their situation is accordingly. The relationship progressed just as Bioware planned, which was for the relationship to feel cold, for Shepard to feel mostly unwanted, both by their LI and by the Council, and the Alliance, etc etc... The isolation of the protagonist is undecidedly the core concept of any "dark second act".

Sigh. I'm feeling you are not reading what I'm writing. Why force us to meta game about Shepard's feelings in a case like this, where at the stake is one of the supposedly most important decisions made in ME1? Especially considering the "cinematic presentation" ambitions Bioware clearly has for this work. Again, compare the Virmire survivor and Liara. It's made blatant that there both was a relationship, and there might yet be one with Kaidan and Ash. With Liara, there's nothing. What the Virmire survivor got was the bare minimum for a romance carryover. Liara got less, there was practically zero amount of romance specific content for her.

You call it bad writing, but it's not bad writing when you succeed at writing a character in a certain direction that is supposed to make you feel a certain way as you are so indicating. Bad writing is when a writer writes something that falls flat or does not emotionally involve you at all. Hell, I know that I've never left a bad book or movie feeling angry or upset at it. If a piece of fiction involves its audiance on an emotional level like that... chances are it was well written.

What you say is merely your own view of Bioware's intentions. But I don't buy your explanation about never being angered by bad writing. Surely you get angry at having wasted your time, or having been misled, or having wasted your money, or seeing something you value being wasted or wrecked, or whatever. Whether you stay angry and/or anxious, and interested in what comes next... That's the point. Bioware didn't ultimately leave me wanting more Liara, or anxiously expecting some silver bullet bit of writing that solves her character issues in ME3 or some hypothetical DLC. After my initial reaction, sure. But no longer. Gone baby gone.

(This statement does not reflect the views of the author who themself does not care for the writing of Liara's character in either game)

I understand.  You're white knighting for ME2 and its writing team, anxious about people not loving them as well as you do.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yeah, she was so vulnerable she didn't think twice of using Shepard as one of her instruments in her personal vendetta. Or ranting on and on about crushing people so what remains can be squeezed into coffee cups.

Err... have you seen Jack? Showing unneccesary aggression is a very common way to hide your vulnerability. Tell me, did Liara every behave that violently before?

Besides, I don't buy that look being something that Shepard picked up as an invitation to keep his/her distance. And why wasn't there a chance to break up? You seem to think that intentionally disappointing people, but forcing them to remain chained to the wrecked character is a good move? Wouldn't it be more savvy to allow our Shepards to react? You've admitted yourself that the push to "move on" was there from the writing. So why did they not allow the player the chance to react, to dump the cold fish, or, if you were merely disappointed but still anxious to try and salvage the romance, to try and dig a little more (beyond the "why are you angry at SB"), see what's hurt her so bad, even if the result would be her clamming up? I don't call that sort of railroading good writing, in a story where our decisions and choices were supposedly so important.

I just told you that Bioware did this in order to build dramatic tension in the third game. Why would you care to "break it up" with her? As I said, this would just put you in the same camp as not romancing anyone at all for one game and trying to "save it" for someone else. Every RPG needs to railroad you to tell a good story. Bethesda show that easily enough.

Angry? Perhaps. But it also destroyed the character for me, whom I've now given up as FUBAR. If that was Bioware's goal, they've succeeded. I can't say I agree it's good writing, aiming to leave people disappointed tho. Better to leave them hanging, make them wishing for more. Anxious to see what that third act brings us. Leaving people confused and angry, pissing off fans on purpose, burning those bridges... That's risky. What if they now bring in Liara as a very important, central character in ME3... and nobody cares? Rather, many fans now start dismissing her for her ME2 behaviour and wishing Tali or Miranda or the Ilium bartender had got that role instead? Will you still say that this "reaction" is good for the story, since it is a reaction? Trolling gets reactions, too... As in "a big giant space flea out of nowhere" type of "storytelling".

Bioware can't account for the absolute most hardcore of the hardcore. To give a fringe opinion unneccesary weight would jepordize the cohesion of their entire property. I'm not judging your opinions, but you have to admit that not 1% of the population feels as strongly about this issue as you do. Most people feel vaguely sad but interested to see what Bioware does in the sequel. Bioware is committed to carrying the ME1 LIs through the trilogy because they intend for you to have a great moment of tension in the third game between your ME1 LI and your ME2 LI... slacking off and making the ME1 LIs in the third game uninteresting would run utterly counter to that objective, so I'm sorry if I do not share your slippery slope predictions.

Sigh. I'm feeling you are not reading what I'm writing. Why force us to meta game about Shepard's feelings in a case like this, where at the stake is one of the supposedly most important decisions made in ME1? Especially considering the "cinematic presentation" ambitions Bioware clearly has for this work. Again, compare the Virmire survivor and Liara. It's made blatant that there both was a relationship, and there might yet be one with Kaidan and Ash. With Liara, there's nothing. What the Virmire survivor got was the bare minimum for a romance carryover. Liara got less, there was practically zero amount of romance specific content for her.

Yes, the LI you choose in ME1 is important.... in ME3. In ME2 you're supposed to be isolated and distant from that person, so it doesn't "matter" that much. And I'm sorry, but again, I was much more willing to salvage a relationship with Liara than I was with Kaiden. Liara I at least still felt trust with and knew that she still felt for me, she just wasn't able to show those feelings at this time. Kaiden pissed me off and made me want to slap him in the face, and I'm sorry, but that letter didn't make it up for me as a player. It's all about the subtleties. But it doesn't matter how you feel they were presented, as I said, all 3 of the LIs were purposely cold/pissed towards you and were meant you to drive you away from them.... temporarily.

What you say is merely your own view of Bioware's intentions. But I don't buy your explanation about never being angered by bad writing. Surely you get angry at having wasted your time, or having been misled, or having wasted your money, or seeing something you value being wasted or wrecked, or whatever. Whether you stay angry and/or anxious, and interested in what comes next... That's the point. Bioware didn't ultimately leave me wanting more Liara, or anxiously expecting some silver bullet bit of writing that solves her character issues in ME3 or some hypothetical DLC. After my initial reaction, sure. But no longer. Gone baby gone.

No I really don't. Anger and love are two sides of the same coin and both stem from intense emotions and engagement. Disinterest is what stems from bad writing. I used to read those crappy RA Salvatore books about Drizzt. The last one I read, I got halfway through, dropped it, and never picked it up again. I had read (I believe) 9 of those books before I finally let the series go because I realized it wasn't that good. I don't hate the series either... I nothing it. It's just not something I ever think about any more.

I help teach a creative writing class for one of my professors on campus and one of the things he always tells me is that what he enjoys more than anything else is when doing peer reviews of a class member's work, someone raises their hand and says, "I hated it". It doesn't happen very often, but I can tell right now when that happens, the writer actually did do something right.

(This statement does not reflect the views of the author who themself does not care for the writing of Liara's character in either game)

I understand.  You're white knighting for ME2 and its writing team, anxious about people not loving them as well as you do.

That seems unneccessarily hostile towards someone who has done very well to try and engage a friendly discussion with you without resorting to any kind of crude comments. These forums are for discussion, and when you make those kinds of comments towards your opponents, it makes them not want to bother discussing it with you. And then what use are a forum if nobody actually talks to each other?

EDIT: I mentioned a little further up in this post that I helped a professor at school to teaches a creative writing course. I wasn't using this as a (pathetic rather) appeal to authority or experience. Was just a part of my anecdote. In case there was any confusion.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 18 février 2010 - 12:48 .

[Mox Ruuga]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Err... have you seen Jack? Showing unneccesary aggression is a very common way to hide your vulnerability. Tell me, did Liara every behave that violently before?

Unnecessary aggression? What about callously using Shepard as a tool in your private vendetta? Coldness of the heart, I'd say. Especially since she basically refuses to help him/her in return, beyond acting as a signpost. She sends an envoy to meet Shepard at the spaceport, to secure his/her help with the hacking.

I just told you that Bioware did this in order to build dramatic tension in the third game. Why would you care to "break it up" with her? As I said, this would just put you in the same camp as not romancing anyone at all for one game and trying to "save it" for someone else. Every RPG needs to railroad you to tell a good story. Bethesda show that easily enough.

Why not? Haven't you been reading these boards? Many people were turned off by the cold behaviour of the ME1 LIs. By design, you and I agree on that. To push people towards the new ME2 LIs, I guess we agree on that as well. So why would you wonder about wanting a "break it up" option? Hell, Shepard can say as much to Kelly about Kaidan or Ash, not that it turns the picture frame down. As always, the Liara / Shepard relationship isn't acknowledged, as being either on or off. It just kind of hangs there.

Bioware can't account for the absolute most hardcore of the hardcore. To give a fringe opinion unneccesary weight would jepordize the cohesion of their entire property. I'm not judging your opinions, but you have to admit that not 1% of the population feels as strongly about this issue as you do. Most people feel vaguely sad but interested to see what Bioware does in the sequel. Bioware is committed to carrying the ME1 LIs through the trilogy because they intend for you to have a great moment of tension in the third game between your ME1 LI and your ME2 LI... slacking off and making the ME1 LIs in the third game uninteresting would run utterly counter to that objective, so I'm sorry if I do not share your slippery slope predictions.

Oh, cute. "the absolute most hardcore of the hardcore." and "fringe opinion". And you got "angry" about "white knighting".

I have to admit nothing of the sort. I'm just agreeing with the OP, and many people on these boards who think that after the badly written romance cameo with Liara, or the angry encounter with the Virmire survivor, being slapped with a cheater tag is a little too much from the devs.

You're also very eager to push your own interpretation of Bioware's motives as fact. We don't know there'll be some confrontation between the two LIs. I do believe they intend to make at least an effort to continue the ME1 LI romances, but we don't know how. Or how important they will be. Or if the ME1 LIs will be squaddies, or just NPCs. Some ME1 LI fans are still interested in finding out, many others have moved on, dismissing Biowares clumsy attempts at making the "second act" of a three act love story troubled.

Yes, the LI you choose in ME1 is important.... in ME3. In ME2 you're supposed to be isolated and distant from that person, so it doesn't "matter" that much. And I'm sorry, but again, I was much more willing to salvage a relationship with Liara than I was with Kaiden. Liara I at least still felt trust with and knew that she still felt for me, she just wasn't able to show those feelings at this time. Kaiden pissed me off and made me want to slap him in the face, and I'm sorry, but that letter didn't make it up for me as a player. It's all about the subtleties. But it doesn't matter how you feel they were presented, as I said, all 3 of the LIs were purposely cold/pissed towards you and were meant you to drive you away from them.... temporarily.

Again with the assumptions. In my opinion, the damage was done. The ME1 LI was made far too uncompelling and cold for there to be a plausible continuation, that wasn't a complete restart from nothing, in Liara's case. Ash and Kaidan, I can sort of see... But even their next appearances must be really well written. The Horizon stuff needs to be gone over. The way Shepard's objection about Cerberus were "smoothed over", doesn't exactly give me confidence. I see no subtlety in how the ME1 LIs were handled in ME2.

No I really don't. Anger and love are two sides of the same coin and both stem from intense emotions and engagement. Disinterest is what stems from bad writing. I used to read those crappy RA Salvatore books about Drizzt. The last one I read, I got halfway through, dropped it, and never picked it up again. I had read (I believe) 9 of those books before I finally let the series go because I realized it wasn't that good. I don't hate the series either... I nothing it. It's just not something I ever think about any more.

I help teach a creative writing class for one of my professors on campus and one of the things he always tells me is that what he enjoys more than anything else is when doing peer reviews of a class member's work, someone raises their hand and says, "I hated it". It doesn't happen very often, but I can tell right now when that happens, the writer actually did do something right.

Eh... if you say so. In my case, initial anger or intense disappointment is often followed by the very disinterest you mention. Or it can be something that grows over time, and you lose interest after realizing you no longer care.

That seems unneccessarily hostile towards someone who has done very well to try and engage a friendly discussion with you without resorting to any kind of crude comments. These forums are for discussion, and when you make those kinds of comments towards your opponents, it makes them not want to bother discussing it with you. And then what use are a forum if nobody actually talks to each other?

(SNIP anecdote)

Sigh. How "dramatic". "Crude"? A bit too eager in displaying the "outrage", aren't you? Work on it, be a little more subtle.

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 18 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[cronshaw8]

awww man i thought this tread was about some Bethesda/BioWare crossover. Shepard with VATS

[SurfaceBeneath]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Sigh. How "dramatic". "Crude"? A bit too eager in displaying the "outrage", aren't you? Work on it, be a little more subtle.

Yea, not going to even bother responding to you any further. Sorry man, resorting to insults and provocations when you can't even bother to address the underlying concepts is just a pathetic way to try and intimidate someone out of arguing with you. It's not worth my time and effort and now I'm more convinced than ever of my point of view since you've portrayed yourself as somone who's opinion can't stand to argument without brute force ad hominem attacks.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 18 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[Mox Ruuga]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Yea, not going to even bother responding to you any further. Sorry man, resorting to insults and provocations when you can't even bother to address the underlying concepts is just a pathetic way to try and intimidate someone out of arguing with you.

And you persist with the faux drama? If you were bored and wanted to quit the discussion, you could have just said so... Good grief... "intimidate"?

[rwilli80]

I understand were you're coming from with Liara, afterall I choose her as my Shep's LI in the first game. Now onto what I feel is a spot of sunshine on a darkened character. Bioware has to keep Liara fans in the dark.. after all they are doing a four issue comic that basically stars her. If you want people to buy it you don't reveal the ending before it comes out. I would wager they are going to release some kind of DLC after the comic is over. And that's where I think you'll see Liara as a key player in ME2. And you have look at it from her prespective, I've read the first issue and part of the second and it seems the Shadow Broker was the one who was going to sell you to the Collectors. Liara loved you with all her heart, she even stated she couldn't live without you, or something to that effect, so of course she is bitter towards the SB.



I have faith bioware is saving something really good for when the comic comes to an end, and hopefully that brings Liara onto the team once her mission is over, most likely in ME3. Also the new LIs seem more of a settle for what's there and wait for something better. The only one that felt like any real interest and love was Tali and Shep. Miranda and Jack, for male Sheps, are just one night stands.

[glacier1701]

matt-bassist wrote...
..........
Trust in Bioware. They have achieved what no other game company has ever done; make an ambitious trilogy where you play as the same character every time, with many of your decisions from previous games having an impact on the universe (whether it is big or small). There is no other game out there where you can do this. And not only that, both ME1 and ME2 are GREAT games! You people sometimes act like spoilt brats with the way you demand things to be in the game and then get angry when it doesn't meet your expectations. It's disrespectful towards Bioware, who, in all honesty, made ME2 a great game all things considered (EA, all your choices etc).
ME3 will also be amazing, probably better than ME2 and ME1. It will probably have all the smooth controls / frame rates / combat systems from ME2 integrated with things from ME1 that are sorely missing like LI's, planet exploration on a bigger scale, and a final enemy. You can also expect all your choices from ME1 and ME2 to have an effect on the game in some way.

...

The problem is that those of us who played E1 were told to trust in BioWare. That what we would see would be a meaningful treatment of the ME1 LIs. That we would all stand up and cheer that yes that is what they would be doing. The only BioWare employee that came nearest to actually telling us that what we actually got in ME2 would be occuring was Chris Priestley. BioWare threw away that trust. Indeed what we seem to have been given in ME2 seems so badly written that it most probably was put in late and given no polish just so BioWare could say we put them there.

My main concern has always been the lack of choice consequence. The LIs are a part of that.aspect of the game. Despite the hype choice handling in the game has been very lackluster. Lets go over the problems taht have cropped up so far;

 (a) Conrad Verner acting as if we stuck a gun in his face even though that is not what may have happened in your game.
 ( Nassana Dantius - where we are basically told we killed her sister at her orders when THAT is only 1 of the 3 ways that mission can play out.
 © Sirta Foundation about to go under because of the 'bloodbath' where they lost a lot of researchers when that may not occur in your game.
 (d) The Consort having to leave the Citadel because of problems with information leakage even though you may have solved that in your game.
 (e) Only getting emails from people you might have helped in ME1.
 (f) And no matter how you ended the game with your Council decision basically you are thrown out onto the trash heap.
 (g) Ashley/Kaiden who, despite having been through the whole of ME1 with you, believing the official line when you try to tell them differently (in the very little conversation you can have with them). I mean didnt they see what you all did? Its like that never happened as far as they are concerned.
 
 This is not to say that ME2 is a bad game - far from it - but what we got is far from what BioWare promised. Too much of it shows lack of polish as if laziness came in or perhaps more to the point resources and budget were committed to 'coolness' that the ME1 details got left out. This is now being reflected in the latest reviews coming out that are now pointing to all the flaws ME2 has including major plot holes. No BioWare no longer has the right to say to ME1 players TRUST US. They have to demonstrate with physical proof that what they promise is going to be there.

[tkaz85]

glacier1701 wrote...

matt-bassist wrote...
..........
Trust in Bioware. They have achieved what no other game company has ever done; make an ambitious trilogy where you play as the same character every time, with many of your decisions from previous games having an impact on the universe (whether it is big or small). There is no other game out there where you can do this. And not only that, both ME1 and ME2 are GREAT games! You people sometimes act like spoilt brats with the way you demand things to be in the game and then get angry when it doesn't meet your expectations. It's disrespectful towards Bioware, who, in all honesty, made ME2 a great game all things considered (EA, all your choices etc).
ME3 will also be amazing, probably better than ME2 and ME1. It will probably have all the smooth controls / frame rates / combat systems from ME2 integrated with things from ME1 that are sorely missing like LI's, planet exploration on a bigger scale, and a final enemy. You can also expect all your choices from ME1 and ME2 to have an effect on the game in some way.

...

The problem is that those of us who played E1 were told to trust in BioWare. That what we would see would be a meaningful treatment of the ME1 LIs. That we would all stand up and cheer that yes that is what they would be doing. The only BioWare employee that came nearest to actually telling us that what we actually got in ME2 would be occuring was Chris Priestley. BioWare threw away that trust. Indeed what we seem to have been given in ME2 seems so badly written that it most probably was put in late and given no polish just so BioWare could say we put them there.

My main concern has always been the lack of choice consequence. The LIs are a part of that.aspect of the game. Despite the hype choice handling in the game has been very lackluster. Lets go over the problems taht have cropped up so far;

 (a) Conrad Verner acting as if we stuck a gun in his face even though that is not what may have happened in your game.
 ( Nassana Dantius - where we are basically told we killed her sister at her orders when THAT is only 1 of the 3 ways that mission can play out.
 © Sirta Foundation about to go under because of the 'bloodbath' where they lost a lot of researchers when that may not occur in your game.
 (d) The Consort having to leave the Citadel because of problems with information leakage even though you may have solved that in your game.
 (e) Only getting emails from people you might have helped in ME1.
 (f) And no matter how you ended the game with your Council decision basically you are thrown out onto the trash heap.
 (g) Ashley/Kaiden who, despite having been through the whole of ME1 with you, believing the official line when you try to tell them differently (in the very little conversation you can have with them). I mean didnt they see what you all did? Its like that never happened as far as they are concerned.
 
 This is not to say that ME2 is a bad game - far from it - but what we got is far from what BioWare promised. Too much of it shows lack of polish as if laziness came in or perhaps more to the point resources and budget were committed to 'coolness' that the ME1 details got left out. This is now being reflected in the latest reviews coming out that are now pointing to all the flaws ME2 has including major plot holes. No BioWare no longer has the right to say to ME1 players TRUST US. They have to demonstrate with physical proof that what they promise is going to be there.

(a) Almost certainly a bug instead of inconsistent writing.
(b-d) I think what we often forget is that there ARE people who play this game before they play ME1 (if they even play it at all).  Therefore there has to be a "canon" plot sequence regardless of what the player may or may not have done in the original game.  Sure, it would have been nice if the story changed to reflect every single decision that we made in the first game, but in the grand scheme of things that is (to me at least) relatively minor.
(e) Some people you actually DO meet again (Gianna Parasini, Shiala, Helena Blake, etc.)  For the ones you don't, what more do you want?
(f) You were never exactly the Council's favored servant to begin with.  If you saved them they are understandably wary about your involvement with Cerberus, and they still don't want to believe that there is an entire race of supremely powerful machines coming to wipe out all life in the galaxy.  Would you?
(g) Would YOU behave rationally if the person you loved, lost two years ago, mourned, and moved on from suddenly came back to life and found you?

[Azriel86]

Great read Nozybidaj. I too remember playing through ME1 and falling in love with Liara and all the hopes and dreams of what the future might hold. And then the disappointment when absolutely nothing happened in that regard.

But I consider ME2 a very difficult time in the series. It has neither a beginning nor an end, and it takes Shepard to very strange place in his life. The absence of the love interests from the previous game do serve as a very important foundation of that strangeness. I have the utmost confidence that Bioware will listen to their fans and try to do every possible love story justice in the end as I've already heard that they're planning to have these love interests come back everything is supposed revolve around weather or not you moved on to another love interest. What every they have in store I believe in them. Cause ME3 is nothing else then a fan game. The people who play ME3 are not going to skip over the first to. I think everyone who plays that game will have two fantastic games to build on.

ME3 will be the climax and Bioware knows that. If the climax fails then everything fails.

Don't worry. I'm almost certain we'll see Liara again

[yoshibb]

silentstephi wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

What annoys me most is that they couldn't just rely on these new supposed deep and interesting characters. They had to go out of their way to make you hate the old ones.

 

But... I don't hate the old ones?  I actually like Liara MORE in ME2.  She's lost some of the innocent shine.  She's seen what the universe is really like, now that the gloves are off and she's not hiding in a dig somewhere.

She's had to make some hard choices since Shep's death.  I love it.

Kaiden/Ash did what you'd have expected someone still in it for the cause.  They're alliance, through and through, and you showing up as a Cerberus whatever, is going to through them for a loop.  But the email afterwards was an excellent touch. 

Sure, you get very little face time with them.  It's Horizon, "Oh hey" and then BAM that's it... but honestly, it was just enough for me. 

Then again, I'm not really in to the whole Kaiden thing, but I still see it as well written.  

I'd try and reverse it a bit, but honestly, I didn't get the chance to romance Garrus in 1, I was pleasently surprized to find him in the second game.  (Didn't follow much of the hype, just knew it was coming out soon. XD)

/shrug I dunno.  I find the direction those characters going to be something I'm looking forward to, it's why I made a second run through with a ME1 LI.  Because it's still a great story.

I don't hate the old ones either. However, you can't deny the majority of people turned against their old LI in the second game, many who said they would stick with their love interest throughout the series. There is a difference between a troubled relationship and having it completely drop off the face of the planet. Do you think any new players care about Liara, Ash, and Kaidan based on their brief appearances? My guess is most people would be surprised to know that there was any relationship at all in ME. 

Also, other people are actually expecting us to have any faith in Bioware at this point? We were told our choices would matter and that never happened. We were told the LIs would have an important role and lol, I talked to Shiala longer in this game than I did to Kaidan. Now people expect us to have faith in them, when they've done nothing but disappoint us? Even the completely different team working on Dragon Age has an expansion coming out where they drop your LIs off the face of the planet. Nothing Bioware has done gives me any hope that they will be willing to continue the ME LIs story in Mass Effect 3. I have even more doubt they will continue relationships from ME2. Too much work to carry on those possibly dead characters right?

Hilarious. I thought this game was going to be something ground breaking, but it's more interested in the mainstream shooter aspect to make some quick cash rather than actually putting the work in to make this something special. Have faith? Talk is cheap, maybe try proving it in your game. [/rant] 

[Nozybidaj]

yoshibb wrote...

Hilarious. I thought this game was going to be something ground breaking, but it's more interested in the mainstream shooter aspect to make some quick cash rather than actually putting the work in to make this something special. Have faith? Talk is cheap, maybe try proving it in your game. [/rant] 

Something I hadn't thought of, but maybe this is also something that is a cause of a lot of my disappointment, because I too was expecting something groundbreaking (at least before I had heard of the ME1 LI situation), something that was really going to revolutionize the way people looked at video games as a story telling vehicle and role playing games in general. 

ME1 had left them with the perfect setup to do something I haven't really seen done well in a video game series and that is to have world and a cast as deep and developed as to be comparable to something like Star Wars.  There was SOOOO much potential there and they let it all slip right through their fingers.  They had this great established cast they could have developed and explored, added a few new faces to, and sent them all off on a great adventure.

Instead we got a game full of introducing an entirely new cast while all but neglecting the overall story of the trilogy.  Some of the technical innovations are really well done, but the overall package just falls way short of what I thought Bioware was capable of doing with the franchise.

[Mox Ruuga]

Bioware themselves hyped up the "No one else has ever done something like this!" aspect around the release of ME1, when they started telling people to "keep their save games".

Once ME2's development got underway, the PR changed, and the "dark second act" and "it's more of a shooter" mantra began to dominate. Anyone remember the very first real game footage? Where the devs just drooled over the heavy weapon system etc., how you can "kill your enemies a thousand times over" blah blah blah? That's when the unhappy murmuring started in the forums, the first pangs of dread about the new direction for some fans. Other than the "Shepard can't be dead!" scare of the first trailer, that is.

It will be curious to see, what the initial hype about ME3 will focus on.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
It will be curious to see, what the initial hype about ME3 will focus on.

I didn't follow much of the lead up to ME2, I was happily playing ME1 over and over.

I really didn't start to read the forums and look for info until about a month and half or so before release.  I will be keeping a close eye on ME3, though honestly my expectations are not near as high this time.  Of course this is assuming the comic and any dlc doesn't ruin it long before then.

[Airell]

I think bioware needs look to the fans not the critics who bashed one and two. you will not make them happy, they did not play mass effect 1 and 2 nore will they play.

[ZennExile]

All of you need to learn to condense your thoughts down into manageble chunks. This is like watching to 85 year old women tell stories. It's all wind and the occasional fart that leads to talk of bowel movements and a shift between one story and the next.

Really, lets practice condensing ideas into less windy bits that actually stay on a topic or at the very least explore the outer edges of a topic instead of this windfest garbage that goes 15 different directions at once...