123 réponses à ce sujet

[anmiro]

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

Modifié par anmiro, 17 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Beastfoot]

It also struck me as unbelievable (or whatever you wanna call it), so I sure hope there's a good explanation in ME3.

Modifié par Beastfoot, 17 février 2010 - 08:56 .

[Zhijn]

It dosnt need a reason! Its a Giant Human Robot!!.

Hilarious. =D

Modifié par Zhijn, 17 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[Lightice_av]

It's probably just a core - it's tiny compared to the Sovereign, even if you put in all the missing bits. I'm guessing that it would have had a conventional Reaper superstructure built around it, eventually. The implications are that the Reapers reproduce by taking a single species they find genetically suitable, and assuming their "essence" by using them as construction material. Exactly why this is important is unknown; I guess we'll learn more in Mass Effect 3.

[Ancalador]

I think that the Reapers have always been comprised of a combination of machine and organic and simply chose the most adaptable genetic species to use for the next generation of Reapers.



After all the Reapers would have to have at least some of their kind capable of land based movements.



All indications point towards humans genetic diversity being what the collectors were after since the other species never suffered the same depredations that we did (humans that is)



I still want to know what most of those visions represented during ME1. Did the cybernetics shown indicate the Reapers or what the Protheans had become? Maybe whatever was left of the species that predated the Protheans?

[Darth_Ultima]

Apparently the Reapers use both organic and inorganic components to build more Reapers.  Saren said something about how the Reapers vision was a world where all the beings were both organic and inorganic with the strengths of both and the weaknesses of neither.  Makes sense because even the most powerful computer in the world can't hold a candle to the amount of raw data the human brain can process and no computer can learn and reason by itself. The art book that came with the collectors edition has artwork for what the human based Reaper would look like when it was finished. It kind of looked like a standard Reaper with a vague human skull and bone structure on the hull.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 17 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[medlish]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

Apparently the Reapers use both organic and inorganic components to build more Reapers. Even the most powerful computer in the world can't hold a candle to the human brain and no computer can learn and reason by itself. The art book that came with the collectors edition has artwork for what the human based Reaper would look like when it was finished. It kind of looked like a standard Reaper with a vague human skull and bone structure on the hull.

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

[Lightice_av]

Even the most powerful computer in the world can't hold a candle to the human brain and no computer can learn and reason by itself.

Well, this doesn't apply in the Mass Effect universe, as EDI and the geth make clear. But the Reapers don't want brainpower, they want "genetic essence", whatever that's supposed to mean.

The art book that came with the collectors edition has artwork for what the human based Reaper would look like when it was finished. It kind of looked like a standard Reaper with a vague human skull and bone structure on the hull.

It's actually an early draft of what the Human-Reaper was going to look like in the game. It's still unfinished in that picture. They just changed the design.

[Kerberus88]

anmiro wrote...

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

Your analogy makes no sense. I need to melt down thousands of a non-organic object in order to make a giant organic object?
A better analogy is: I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car.

The reason the Collectors needed to melt down the humans is for their DNA. The DNA needs to be incorporated into the metal in order for the Reaper to be alive. DNA is very hard to make in a lab, so they just liqufied some humans.

P.S. Reapers aren't just machines, they are a machine organic hybrid. Hence the organic material.

[Darth_Ultima]

medlish wrote...

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

No they can't.  Sometimes you can write programs that are incredibly adaptable but its because they are programed with detailed code that contains contingencies for every possible scenerio that the programer can envision.  They do what they are programed to do.  Eventually they will be able to but only because we have programed them to do so.

[Sina84]

What's hard to understand? The Reapers return to the Milky way every 50 000 years, look at the organic life, and pick out the best species going so that they can integrate their genetic data into themselves. They pick a different top grade species every cycle, if there is one good enough, and make a new Reaper out of them then wipe out the rest to make room for whatever will evolve into superiority the next cycle. This cycle it was the human race who were chosen.

It only looks so much like a human because it's in larval form. That human-reaper won't remain that size and shape, and they won't built anything on it. It will grow into a proper Reaper, like an organic baby grows.

It's hard to say why they do this, but it could be as simple as the reason Legion and the Geth were building their super structure. "To improve ourselves".

[medlish]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

medlish wrote...

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

No they can't.  Sometimes you can write programs that are incredibly adaptable but its because they are programed with detailed code that contains contingencies for every possible scenerio that the programer can envision.  They do what they are programed to do.  Eventually they will be able to but only because we have programed them to do so.

Yes it's because we programmed them. But that doesn't mean they can't learn or reason. They can. Also, in theory it is possible to emulate the human brain. There is nothing in your brain which can't be done with a computer. It's just that we humans are not intelligent enough or don't have enough time to create a program which has the capacities of a human.

[Darth_Ultima]

Sina84 wrote...

What's hard to understand? The Reapers return to the Milky way every 50 000 years, look at the organic life, and pick out the best species going so that they can integrate their genetic data into themselves. They pick a different top grade species every cycle, if there is one good enough, and make a new Reaper out of them then wipe out the rest to make room for whatever will evolve into superiority the next cycle. This cycle it was the human race who were chosen.

It only looks so much like a human because it's in larval form. That human-reaper won't remain that size and shape, and they won't built anything on it. It will grow into a proper Reaper, like an organic baby grows.

It's hard to say why they do this, but it could be as simple as the reason Legion and the Geth were building their super structure. "To improve ourselves".

Exactly.  If you look at closely the spine is too long to be human and its the skull is not entirely human.  It has three eyes and the jaw has mandibles.

[anmiro]

Kerberus88 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

Your analogy makes no sense. I need to melt down thousands of a non-organic object in order to make a giant organic object?
A better analogy is: I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car.

The reason the Collectors needed to melt down the humans is for their DNA. The DNA needs to be incorporated into the metal in order for the Reaper to be alive. DNA is very hard to make in a lab, so they just liqufied some humans.

P.S. Reapers aren't just machines, they are a machine organic hybrid. Hence the organic material.

I intentionally reversed the biological and mechanical parts. As you just did with this statement .

I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car. 

My point is, it doesnt make sense.

[Beastfoot]

Well, just because human dna contains "superior" data, does not mean that the overall human shape and apperance is likewise superior, at least not (imo) considering it's new purpose.

[Darth_Ultima]

medlish wrote...

Darth_Ultima wrote...

medlish wrote...

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

No they can't.  Sometimes you can write programs that are incredibly adaptable but its because they are programed with detailed code that contains contingencies for every possible scenerio that the programer can envision.  They do what they are programed to do.  Eventually they will be able to but only because we have programed them to do so.

Yes it's because we programmed them. But that doesn't mean they can't learn or reason. They can. Also, in theory it is possible to emulate the human brain. There is nothing in your brain which can't be done with a computer. It's just that we humans are not intelligent enough or don't have enough time to create a program which has the capacities of a human.

I have been a programmer and would know if they develeped AI that had real intelligence,  In the most basic philosophical definition computers cannot reason because reason implies self-awareness and free will.  If a computer is left to its own devices it will only do what it is programmed to do and nothing else until it loses power.  Eventually (probably not in our lifetime) computers will be able too but as of right now I am not wrong to say they can't.

[Fishy]

medlish wrote...

Darth_Ultima wrote...

medlish wrote...

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

No they can't.  Sometimes you can write programs that are incredibly adaptable but its because they are programed with detailed code that contains contingencies for every possible scenerio that the programer can envision.  They do what they are programed to do.  Eventually they will be able to but only because we have programed them to do so.

Yes it's because we programmed them. But that doesn't mean they can't learn or reason. They can. Also, in theory it is possible to emulate the human brain. There is nothing in your brain which can't be done with a computer. It's just that we humans are not intelligent enough or don't have enough time to create a program which has the capacities of a human.

It's called emulation.I doubt a computer can paint La jacombe or write the 9th symphony,
Can a computer love ?Respect?Understand a tough situation?Understand and laugh at a joke?
Show sympathy?Show respect?

A computer would probably erase any threat without trying to understand it.Take a look at the Geth.
I doubt a computer would understand truly what you went through if your family died.Won't mourn their software if they're erased.Ask the Geth.

Human are much more than just number in a code.

[Darth_Ultima]

anmiro wrote...

Kerberus88 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

Your analogy makes no sense. I need to melt down thousands of a non-organic object in order to make a giant organic object?
A better analogy is: I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car.

The reason the Collectors needed to melt down the humans is for their DNA. The DNA needs to be incorporated into the metal in order for the Reaper to be alive. DNA is very hard to make in a lab, so they just liqufied some humans.

P.S. Reapers aren't just machines, they are a machine organic hybrid. Hence the organic material.

I intentionally reversed the biological and mechanical parts. As you just did with this statement .

I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car. 

My point is, it doesnt make sense.

I guess that is why they call it science fiction.  Its not supposed to make sense all the time.

The story made it clear though that they are using human DNA to create the organic components of the Reaper.  They are using and rewriting the DNA to do what they want it to do and not what it would do naturally.  I suppose they could grow the organic parts themselves but for whatever reason they find it easier to harvest it from other creatures.  Its also implied that there are parts of the Reaper that are organic and parts that are purely mechanical.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 17 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[medlish]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

medlish wrote...

Darth_Ultima wrote...

medlish wrote...

computer programs can learn and reason by themselves.

No they can't.  Sometimes you can write programs that are incredibly adaptable but its because they are programed with detailed code that contains contingencies for every possible scenerio that the programer can envision.  They do what they are programed to do.  Eventually they will be able to but only because we have programed them to do so.

Yes it's because we programmed them. But that doesn't mean they can't learn or reason. They can. Also, in theory it is possible to emulate the human brain. There is nothing in your brain which can't be done with a computer. It's just that we humans are not intelligent enough or don't have enough time to create a program which has the capacities of a human.

I have been a programmer and would know if they develeped AI that had real intelligence,  In the most basic philosophical definition computers cannot reason because reason implies self-awareness and free will.  If a computer is left to its own devices it will only do what it is programmed to do and nothing else until it loses power.  Eventually (probably not in our lifetime) computers will be able too but as of right now I am not wrong to say they can't.

Define real intelligence. Proof that you have free will. Actually I can reason that you only do what your evolution / your DNA tells you. There is no proof that we're different from a complex biological machine.
Also, you don't need to pull the "I have been a programmer" card on me because I am a programmer, I am bachelor of science and I'm active in the field of robotics.
I agree with your last part tough. Right now computers are not even partly capable of doing what we can do. But I can't say if this is because of the computer's nature of because if we humans are not capable of writing an intelligent program.

[Wolfed]

Using organics for reproduction makes alot of sense. A Darwinist would argue that the meaning of life is development and continuating life. From what we know of Reapers, they come back once the galaxy is at a certain level of civilization, then... well, reaping the organics. ME1 ended off with "Why?". ME2 delivers the "Why" pretty decisively. The Reapers' only way of reproduction is to harvest genetic material to build more of themselves. They can't bump uglies or fertilize eggs or build themselves out of raw material. They need genetic blueprints. How that technically works I got no clue, but philosophically it seems sound.



I'm guessing that the reason work to create a human reaper started before the invasion was because Sovereign failed. The Repers are too lazy to coast all the way back to the galaxy (and who could blame them), so they figure they'd try to start creating a new vanguard and thus starting the reproduction cycle ahead of schedule. Kinda haphazard plan that sorta backfired, and thus, they were forced to start coasting anyway. Man, they must be pissed at pesky Shepard by now.



And with hindsight in mind, it's not really a complete surprise that Reapers are semi-organic. In ME1 it's hinted that husk-technology isn't geth-indigenous. It came from the Reapers. not that I saw through it during my playthrough, but hey... doesn't mean the hints weren't there.

[SSH83]

Look at our real-life medical world. Sometimes we know we want a certain chemical, but it may be a long process to produce it through a purely chemical process. However, we may find that the chemical is naturally accruing in a certain plant or animal, so instead of creating a factory, we create a farm. Much less effort and much more efficient.

Similarly, perhaps the components that the Reapers need to reproduce/evolve are very difficult to create, so instead of spending all that effort to artificially procreate and evolve, they let natural selection do the job. Since Reapers are (presumably) immortal, they’ll just leave the galaxy and let it incubate for a while then come back and make a grand harvest every millennium.

Edit: Essentially, in the Reaper's eyes, the Milky Way is just a factory that produce car parts in the first place.  Of course this is all just a hypothesis with no real basis from the game story.

Modifié par SSH83, 17 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[anmiro]

So, basically the Reapers are the Mass Effect equivalent of the Borg. And the Reaper's are completely dependant on organic life for procreation.

[Darth_Ultima]

medlish wrote...

Define real intelligence. Proof that you have free will. Actually I can reason that you only do what your evolution / your DNA tells you. There is no proof that we're different from a complex biological machine.
Also, you don't need to pull the "I have been a programmer" card on me because I am a programmer, I am bachelor of science and I'm active in the field of robotics.
I agree with your last part tough. Right now computers are not even partly capable of doing what we can do. But I can't say if this is because of the computer's nature of because if we humans are not capable of writing an intelligent program.

Now you are just arguing semantics. There is a difference between potential and capability.  Computers have the potential to have intelligence but right now they do not have the capability.  I also did define real intelligence. Self-awareness and free will.  As for your argument about evolution programing me then I have to disagree humans.  Our little discussion has wandered into some deep philosophical territory that academics can argue about until they are blue in the face.

[Sina84]

There seems to be something more to it than just procreation, given what Harbinger says during the game. "We are your salvation through destruction", "We are the harbingers of your ascension". Implying that they concider the act of turning a species into a Reaper something of a blessing, like reaching a higher tier of existance for that species, as if turning the human race into a Reaper is humanities ascension into something greater, something eternal, a way for a species to be preserved forever at its full potential.



Sovereign was pretty clear that Reapers concider themselves the apex of existance, and all Reapers are converted civilisations.

[KainrycKarr]

Nothing can convince me that having a giant flippin' Terminator in the Mass Effect universe was a good idea. Nothing.